188 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

Today Red Bull called in Perez to retire the car but kept him sitting in it for ages and eventually sent him back out on track, telling the media it was in case they picked up more penalties so he could serve them this race, not next. I was mildly fascinated by all of it. Presume it's a legal loophole but on the face of it, I'm puzzled how. Tactical retirements I suspect happen all the time to save elements on cars in races that wont score points but those aren't allowed, technically (I don't think??). So what's the way RBR have got round this? Did anyone in RC query it? Did Red Bull have to demonstrate that no, they were totally working to fix a problem and eventually did so out he went again but alas! quickly failed again (once it became clear they weren't picking up more penalties that they might have to serve in Qatar.)

 

Anyway, I guess it's fairly harmless but just curious about how this was allowed, o collective mind who have the regs at your fingertips.

[Clatter]

Clever thinking by Red Bull, and broke no rules. It was just unusual to see.

[Bliman]

Typical Red Bull. They know perfectly what they are doing. Like I said in the race thread. I knew immediately what they were doing. Such actions and words they speak on the radio is a very big reason why they won in 2021. They are very sharp. Others are amateurs in that field in f1.

[JvsKVB77]

Don't think there are any rules, which don't allow to retire even 100% fine car. And i remember similar cases in F2 when drivers return to the race to serve a penalty.

[Baddoer]

I'm tired of Red Bull being cheeky and pretending to be clever.  Always trying to sneak where it's too tight or pushing grey areas into even darkest shades.

Eventually it's phone call from Horner to Masi which decided 2021 championship after that all calls to RD were banned.

Edited by Baddoer, 24 September 2023 - 19:34.

[SophieB]

Don't think there are any rules, which don't allow to retire even 100% fine car. And i remember similar cases in F2 when drivers return to the race to serve a penalty.

 

I thought there were. Otherwise why don't teams just retire to save elements on the car all the time if out the points in places like Monaco?

 

I do confess I'm more or less totally guessing, though!

[Carsey]

Knowing the rule book in and out to the letter and between the lines.  Well played red bull.  Not the first time either.

 

Now I have a question.   if your 16laps down.....and you can unlap yourself if theres a safety car....how many laps get removed? 

[Carsey]

I'm tired of Red Bull being cheeky and pretending to be clever.  Always trying to sneak where it's too tight or pushing grey areas into even darkest shades.

Eventually it's phone call from Horner to Masi which decided 2021 championship after that all calls to RD were banned.

 

I dont think theres a problem with being 'cheeky or clever'.  Not that I would say its either of those.  Its knowing your rule book and applying it properly.   Its not Red Bulls fault if other teams cant read the rulebook properly. 

[Clatter]

I thought there were. Otherwise why don't teams just retire to save elements on the car all the time if out the points in places like Monaco?

 

I do confess I'm more or less totally guessing, though!

 

I think there was something brought in when multirace engines came in. It was to prevent a car being retired, and allowing a penalty free engine change. Useful if running out of the points towards the end of the race.

[krea]

I'm tired of Red Bull being cheeky and pretending to be clever. Always trying to sneak where it's too tight or pushing grey areas into even darkest shades.
Eventually it's phone call from Horner to Masi which decided 2021 championship after that all calls to RD were banned.

Meanwhile other teams are somehow always more affected by new TDs

[ClubmanGT]

I'm tired of Red Bull being cheeky and pretending to be clever.  Always trying to sneak where it's too tight or pushing grey areas into even darkest shades.

Eventually it's phone call from Horner to Masi which decided 2021 championship after that all calls to RD were banned.

 

It's about as ethical as turning your second car into an engine test bed to benefit your first.

 

This kind of thing is nothing new. Button stopped his car metres short of the line in Australia when he had an engine failure when he could have easily rolled over it in 2006 to avoid a penalty for having to change it. 

Or is this one of things there it's only a certain team that isn't allowed to do things people don't like even though they're 100% OK in the rules? 

[JvsKVB77]

Knowing the rule book in and out to the letter and between the lines.  Well played red bull.  Not the first time either.
 
Now I have a question.   if your 16laps down.....and you can unlap yourself if theres a safety car....how many laps get removed?

1. But if it will be 16 Safety car appearing...

[JvsKVB77]

I thought there were. Otherwise why don't teams just retire to save elements on the car all the time if out the points in places like Monaco?
 
I do confess I'm more or less totally guessing, though!

Because you ever can have 5-7 cars crashed)

[krea]

It's about as ethical as turning your second car into an engine test bed to benefit your first.

This kind of thing is nothing new. Button stopped his car metres short of the line in Australia when he had an engine failure when he could have easily rolled over it in 2006 to avoid a penalty for having to change it.
Or is this one of things there it's only a certain team that isn't allowed to do things people don't like even though they're 100% OK in the rules?

I mean his narrative about Abu Dhabi should tell you everything.

[SenorSjon]

It happened quite a lot to have free gearbox swaps when they needed to run consecutive races (similar with the multiple weekends/engine rules).

[SophieB]

I think there was something brought in when multirace engines came in. It was to prevent a car being retired, and allowing a penalty free engine change. Useful if running out of the points towards the end of the race.

 

I thought so too, but maybe I dreamed it?? Weird. I also have a vague memory of one of McLaren basically having to say yup, genuine retirement, gov, honest.

 

Doubting everything because in all honesty, I remember a hell of a lot wrong.

[milestone 11]

Dare I? Oh, bugger, AD21 had a notorious suspected tactical retirement.

[FortiFord]

Knowing the rule book in and out to the letter and between the lines. Well played red bull. Not the first time either.

Now I have a question. if your 16laps down.....and you can unlap yourself if theres a safety car....how many laps get removed?

I think on this occasion Red Bull actually got it wrong.

When Perez pitted to retire they shouldve served the 5 sec penalty before touching the car. Stewards should’ve issued another penalty for this.

Of course the stewards don’t even know the rules so no surprise they didn’t take action.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

It was a mockery of regulations . . .

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought any car which was turned off, wouldn't be allowed to participate in the race anymore so I assume Sergio Perez's car was up and running in the garage while RedBull Pit Wall reading the rule book?

[pdac]

I thought there were. Otherwise why don't teams just retire to save elements on the car all the time if out the points in places like Monaco?

 

I do confess I'm more or less totally guessing, though!

 

Surely, it's only a retirement once the race is over. Until then it's just a very long pit stop. As far as I am aware, there's no rules regarding the maximum time for a pit stop.

[pdac]

It was a mockery of regulations . . .

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought any car which was turned off, wouldn't be allowed to participate in the race anymore so I assume Sergio Perez's car was up and running in the garage while RedBull Pit Wall reading the rule book?

 

I'm not sure where it says that in the rules. Certainly, a car whose engine is turned off whilst away from the pits is not allowed to be restarted by any external device (can be restarted using the ERS). But in the pits, I think they can turn it off and restart it, if they want to.

[Myrvold]

Anyway, I guess it's fairly harmless but just curious about how this was allowed, o collective mind who have the regs at your fingertips.

 

I genuinely thought there was a pretty much blanket rule in anything except endurance racing that if you leave your car, you cannot rejoin. I couldn't find anything.

 

Now, FortiFord has a point though. In terms of how official the initial retirement was. If that was a proper retirement, then there's parc ferme rules etc.

[SophieB]

I genuinely thought there was a pretty much blanket rule in anything except endurance racing that if you leave your car, you cannot rejoin. I couldn't find anything.

 

Now, FortiFord has a point though. In terms of how official the initial retirement was. If that was a proper retirement, then there's parc ferme rules etc.

What about pdac’s intriguing notion of an unending pitstop?

[Myrvold]

Surely, it's only a retirement once the race is over. Until then it's just a very long pit stop. As far as I am aware, there's no rules regarding the maximum time for a pit stop.

 

There's that NASCAR thing about "out" and "off". IndyCar have it quite open to rejoin.

 

Something in my head are telling me that this isn't entirely how it's meant in F1. Not that it means that it is illegal though.

[Myrvold]

What about pdac’s intriguing notion of an unending pitstop?

 

That's where the "driver leaving the car" thing pops in. I seem to remember "back in the days" (which now is after the year 2000) when drivers were taken into the garage, with the idea that they would rejoin for testing-purposes or whatever. Then they all sat in their car in the garage waiting. They never left. Maybe that was one of the many Bernie-FOM-FIA unwritten rules of the time?

[FortiFord]

That's where the "driver leaving the car" thing pops in. I seem to remember "back in the days" (which now is after the year 2000) when drivers were taken into the garage, with the idea that they would rejoin for testing-purposes or whatever. Then they all sat in their car in the garage waiting. They never left. Maybe that was one of the many Bernie-FOM-FIA unwritten rules of the time?

Didn’t DC get out of the car in Spa 98 (to have his altercation with Schumi) and then rejoined many laps down after they repaired his rear wing.

Schumacher also got out of the car in Monaco 98 with broken suspension but then Brawn told him to get back in the car and he rejoined the race.

[cbo]

I don't think there are any rules about retiring the car. There are some about what the consequences may be. One of those is that if you retire the car before a penalty is served, you may incur a grid penalty in the next race (54.3d in the sporting regulations).

Clearly, Red Bull wanted to avoid that.

Again, the regulations are vague. Why not just state unequivocally that penalties not served in one race for whatever reason, will result in a grid drop in the next race. If you do the crime, you serve the time...

[Mishvili]

But isn’t the rule that the penalty must be served before any work is done on the car? And must be served at the first available opportunity (ie. the next pit stop)? To prevent teams gaming when to take it. So didn’t Red Bull break this rule by wheeling him back into the garage (and then doing further work etc prior to him going back out)? So shouldn’t he have received ANOTHER penalty?

[Myrvold]

Didn’t DC get out of the car in Spa 98 (to have his altercation with Schumi) and then rejoined many laps down after they repaired his rear wing.

Schumacher also got out of the car in Monaco 98 with broken suspension but then Brawn told him to get back in the car and he rejoined the race.

 

Indeed. I guess some just couldn't be bothered to go out and in agian.

 

 

g) Except during a race suspension, any car

abandoned on the circuit by its driver, even

temporarily, shall be considered as withdrawn from

the race.

 

"on the circuit" being the key here. So pit-lane is free for all. 

[Carsey]

I can only presume the penalty wasnt 'given' when checo retired the car.  We didnt get any messages on the live stream so maybe there is some from race control if F1TV multiviewer allows those to come up.

 

regarding parc ferme - theres a good chance that the part replaced was of the same spec and Id dare bet there was a team/fia discussion about the whole process.

[Myrvold]

But isn’t the rule that the penalty must be served before any work is done on the car? And must be served at the first available opportunity (ie. the next pit stop)? To prevent teams gaming when to take it. So didn’t Red Bull break this rule by wheeling him back into the garage (and then doing further work etc prior to him going back out)? So shouldn’t he have received ANOTHER penalty?

c) Whilst a car is stationary in the pit lane as a result of incurring a penalty in accordance with Articles 54.3a) or 54.3b) above, it may not be worked on until the car has been stationary for the duration of the penalty. In this context, touching the car or driver by hand or tools or equipment will all constitute working.
d) Whilst a car is stationary in the pit lane as a result of incurring a time penalty in accordance with Article 54.3d) above it may not be worked on. However, if the engine stops any work necessary to re-start it may be carried out after the time penalty period has elapsed. If the Competitor is unable to start the engine the car may then only be worked on in the driver’s garage.
e) Any breach or failure

Nope. He wasn't in the pit as a result of the penalty.

[Carsey]

• FIA STEWARDS: 5 SECOND TIME PENALTY FOR CAR 11 (PER) - CAUSING A COLLISION

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:31:41 , Lap 15
• FIA STEWARDS: TURN 11 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 11 (PER) AND 20 (MAG) UNDER INVESTIGATION - CAUSING A COLLISION

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:31:17 , Lap 15

[Mishvili]

c) Whilst a car is stationary in the pit lane as a result of incurring a penalty in accordance with Articles 54.3a) or 54.3b) above, it may not be worked on until the car has been stationary for the duration of the penalty. In this context, touching the car or driver by hand or tools or equipment will all constitute working.
d) Whilst a car is stationary in the pit lane as a result of incurring a time penalty in accordance with Article 54.3d) above it may not be worked on. However, if the engine stops any work necessary to re-start it may be carried out after the time penalty period has elapsed. If the Competitor is unable to start the engine the car may then only be worked on in the driver’s garage.
e) Any breach or failure

Nope. He wasn't in the pit as a result of the penalty.

If you get a penalty and then stop for tyres, you have to serve the penalty before changing tyres. What’s the difference? Obviously if the penalty hadn’t been awarded at the time of retiring that would be different, but i’m sure that wasn’t the case? Or that’s not what I remember. It was definitely announced he was under investigation prior to retirement. Although may be mixing up with the safety car penalty, in which case i’m obviously talking nonsense!

Edited by Mishvili, 24 September 2023 - 20:37.

[Myrvold]

 

• FIA STEWARDS: 5 SECOND TIME PENALTY FOR CAR 11 (PER) - CAUSING A COLLISION

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:31:41 , Lap 15
•  

  FIA STEWARDS: TURN 11 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 11 (PER) AND 20 (MAG) UNDER INVESTIGATION - CAUSING A COLLISION

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:31:17 , Lap 15

 

 

That was very quick.

Also, time doesn't match up with documents.

 

If you have access to it, when did the Sargeant and Perez SC penalty show up?

[Carsey]

Perez was under investigation for causing a collision as he was a short way to the final chicane.   A few seconds later as hes entering the pits the time penalty come through as he passed the start of the armco.

[Carsey]

That was very quick.

Also, time doesn't match up with documents.

 

If you have access to it, when did the Sargeant and Perez SC penalty show up?

What lap is that?

 

Times look to be CET time I think.

[Carsey]

• CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 4

   

  24 Sept 2023, 07:38:34 , Lap 53
• DOUBLE YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 4

   

  24 Sept 2023, 07:38:09 , Lap 53
• CAR 44 (HAM) TIME 1:37.353 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 53 15:35:26

   

  24 Sept 2023, 07:36:14 , Lap 53
• CHEQUERED FLAG

   

  24 Sept 2023, 07:35:04 , Lap 53
• CAR 81 (PIA) TIME 1:37.843 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 9 LAP 44 15:20:11

   

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• CAR 22 (TSU) TIME 1:38.683 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 46 15:24:47

   

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• CAR 16 (LEC) TIME 1:37.234 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 2 LAP 45 15:21:23

   

  24 Sept 2023, 07:25:16 , Lap 47
• FIA STEWARDS: TURN 2 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 16 (LEC) AND 63 (RUS) REVIEWED NO FURTHER INVESTIGATION - LEAVING THE TRACK AND GAINING AN ADVANTAGE

   

  24 Sept 2023, 07:24:59 , Lap 47
• TURN 2 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 16 (LEC) AND 63 (RUS) NOTED - LEAVING THE TRACK AND GAINING AN ADVANTAGE

   

  24 Sept 2023, 07:23:51 , Lap 47
• CAR 63 (RUS) TIME 1:38.129 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 33 15:02:42

   

  24 Sept 2023, 07:03:20 , Lap 34
• CAR 81 (PIA) TIME 1:38.621 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 31 14:59:11

   

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• CAR 63 (RUS) TIME 1:37.678 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 28 14:54:31

   

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• CAR 4 (NOR) TIME 1:38.019 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 2 LAP 28 14:53:15

   

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• CAR 23 (ALB) TIME 1:40.421 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 21 14:43:40

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:45:14 , Lap 23
• FIA STEWARDS: TURN 14 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 63 (RUS) AND 44 (HAM) REVIEWED NO FURTHER INVESTIGATION - FORCING ANOTHER DRIVER OFF THE TRACK

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:41:22 , Lap 20
• CAR 63 (RUS) TIME 1:40.500 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 13 LAP 16 14:34:16

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:38:33 , Lap 19
• CAR 44 (HAM) TIME 1:43.793 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 16 14:34:16

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:38:32 , Lap 19
• TURN 14 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 63 (RUS) AND 44 (HAM) NOTED - FORCING ANOTHER DRIVER OFF THE TRACK

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:36:31 , Lap 18
• CAR 44 (HAM) LAP DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 9 LAP 16 14:33:49 (PIT)

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:34:56 , Lap 17
• FIA STEWARDS: 5 SECOND TIME PENALTY FOR CAR 11 (PER) - CAUSING A COLLISION

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:31:41 , Lap 15
• FIA STEWARDS: TURN 11 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 11 (PER) AND 20 (MAG) UNDER INVESTIGATION - CAUSING A COLLISION

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:31:17 , Lap 15
• CAR 20 (MAG) TIME 1:40.956 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 9 LAP 10 14:23:43

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:31:06 , Lap 14
• DRS ENABLED

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:30:58 , Lap 14
• TRACK CLEAR

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:30:51 , Lap 14
• VIRTUAL SAFETY CAR ENDING

   

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• CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 11

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:29:34 , Lap 14
• VIRTUAL SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED

   

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• CAR 14 (ALO) TIME 1:39.884 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 9 LAP 9 14:21:53

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:28:36 , Lap 13
• CAR 11 (PER) TIME 1:40.896 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 11 14:25:51

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:28:16 , Lap 13
• TURN 11 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 11 (PER) AND 20 (MAG) NOTED - CAUSING A COLLISION

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:28:14 , Lap 13
• TRACK SURFACE SLIPPERY IN TRACK SECTOR 12

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:27:50 , Lap 13
• TRACK SURFACE SLIPPERY IN TRACK SECTOR 11

   

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• CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 11

   

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• CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 12

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:27:32 , Lap 12
• DOUBLE YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 11

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:27:25 , Lap 12
• YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 11

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:27:22 , Lap 12
• DOUBLE YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 12

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:27:17 , Lap 12
• YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 12

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:27:16 , Lap 12
• FIA STEWARDS: 5 SECOND TIME PENALTY FOR CAR 11 (PER) - SAFETY CAR INFRINGEMENT

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:22:37 , Lap 9
• FIA STEWARDS: 5 SECOND TIME PENALTY FOR CAR 2 (SAR) - CAUSING A COLLISION

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:21:31 , Lap 9
• FIA STEWARDS: TURN 11 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 77 (BOT) AND 2 (SAR) UNDER INVESTIGATION - CAUSING A COLLISION

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:20:35 , Lap 8
• FIA STEWARDS: INCIDENT INVOLVING CAR 11 (PER) UNDER INVESTIGATION - SAFETY CAR INFRINGEMENT

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:20:27 , Lap 8
• FIA STEWARDS: LAP 1 TURN 1 REVIEWED NO FURTHER INVESTIGATION

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:19:38 , Lap 8
• TURN 11 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 77 (BOT) AND 2 (SAR) NOTED - CAUSING A COLLISION

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:18:34 , Lap 7
• DRS ENABLED

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:18:00 , Lap 7
• CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 11

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:17:25 , Lap 6
• CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 12

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:17:13 , Lap 6
• TRACK SURFACE SLIPPERY IN TRACK SECTOR 12

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:17:07 , Lap 6
• TRACK SURFACE SLIPPERY IN TRACK SECTOR 11

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:16:55 , Lap 6
• CAR 77 (BOT) OFF TRACK AND CONTINUED AT TURN 11

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:16:02 , Lap 5
• TRACK CLEAR

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:13:56 , Lap 4
• SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:12:41 , Lap 4
• CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 2

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:12:36 , Lap 4
• INCIDENT INVOLVING CAR 11 (PER) NOTED - SAFETY CAR INFRINGEMENT

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:11:45 , Lap 4
• LAP 1 TURN 1 NOTED

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:08:44 , Lap 2
• DOUBLE YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 2

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:06:30 , Lap 2
• SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:05:18 , Lap 1
• CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 4

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:04:38 , Lap 1
• YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 4

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:04:32 , Lap 1
• GREEN LIGHT - PIT EXIT OPEN

   

  24 Sept 2023, 06:04:05 , Lap 1
• DRS DISABLED

   

  24 Sept 2023, 05:57:04 , Lap 1
• RISK OF RAIN FOR F1 RACE IS 0%

   

  24 Sept 2023, 05:45:06 , Lap 1
• PIT EXIT CLOSED

   

  24 Sept 2023, 05:20:00 , Lap 1
• GREEN LIGHT - PIT EXIT OPEN

   

  24 Sept 2023, 05:10:00 , Lap 1

[Myrvold]

• 
  
  
  

  CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 4
  24 Sept 2023, 07:38:34 , Lap 53
  
  DOUBLE YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 4
  24 Sept 2023, 07:38:09 , Lap 53
  
  CAR 44 (HAM) TIME 1:37.353 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 53 15:35:26
  24 Sept 2023, 07:36:14 , Lap 53
  
  CHEQUERED FLAG
  24 Sept 2023, 07:35:04 , Lap 53
  
  CAR 81 (PIA) TIME 1:37.843 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 9 LAP 44 15:20:11
  24 Sept 2023, 07:31:48 , Lap 51
  
  CAR 22 (TSU) TIME 1:38.683 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 46 15:24:47
  24 Sept 2023, 07:25:37 , Lap 48
  
  CAR 16 (LEC) TIME 1:37.234 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 2 LAP 45 15:21:23
  24 Sept 2023, 07:25:16 , Lap 47
  
  FIA STEWARDS: TURN 2 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 16 (LEC) AND 63 (RUS) REVIEWED NO FURTHER INVESTIGATION - LEAVING THE TRACK AND GAINING AN ADVANTAGE
  24 Sept 2023, 07:24:59 , Lap 47
  
  TURN 2 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 16 (LEC) AND 63 (RUS) NOTED - LEAVING THE TRACK AND GAINING AN ADVANTAGE
  24 Sept 2023, 07:23:51 , Lap 47
  
  CAR 63 (RUS) TIME 1:38.129 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 33 15:02:42
  24 Sept 2023, 07:03:20 , Lap 34
  
  CAR 81 (PIA) TIME 1:38.621 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 31 14:59:11
  24 Sept 2023, 07:00:08 , Lap 32
  
  CAR 63 (RUS) TIME 1:37.678 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 28 14:54:31
  24 Sept 2023, 06:55:47 , Lap 29
  
  CAR 4 (NOR) TIME 1:38.019 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 2 LAP 28 14:53:15
  24 Sept 2023, 06:54:51 , Lap 29
  
  CAR 23 (ALB) TIME 1:40.421 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 21 14:43:40
  24 Sept 2023, 06:45:14 , Lap 23
  
  FIA STEWARDS: TURN 14 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 63 (RUS) AND 44 (HAM) REVIEWED NO FURTHER INVESTIGATION - FORCING ANOTHER DRIVER OFF THE TRACK
  24 Sept 2023, 06:41:22 , Lap 20
  
  CAR 63 (RUS) TIME 1:40.500 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 13 LAP 16 14:34:16
  24 Sept 2023, 06:38:33 , Lap 19
  
  CAR 44 (HAM) TIME 1:43.793 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 16 14:34:16
  24 Sept 2023, 06:38:32 , Lap 19
  
  TURN 14 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 63 (RUS) AND 44 (HAM) NOTED - FORCING ANOTHER DRIVER OFF THE TRACK
  24 Sept 2023, 06:36:31 , Lap 18
  
  CAR 44 (HAM) LAP DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 9 LAP 16 14:33:49 (PIT)
  24 Sept 2023, 06:34:56 , Lap 17
  
  FIA STEWARDS: 5 SECOND TIME PENALTY FOR CAR 11 (PER) - CAUSING A COLLISION
  24 Sept 2023, 06:31:41 , Lap 15
  
  FIA STEWARDS: TURN 11 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 11 (PER) AND 20 (MAG) UNDER INVESTIGATION - CAUSING A COLLISION
  24 Sept 2023, 06:31:17 , Lap 15
  
  CAR 20 (MAG) TIME 1:40.956 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 9 LAP 10 14:23:43
  24 Sept 2023, 06:31:06 , Lap 14
  
  DRS ENABLED
  24 Sept 2023, 06:30:58 , Lap 14
  
  TRACK CLEAR
  24 Sept 2023, 06:30:51 , Lap 14
  
  VIRTUAL SAFETY CAR ENDING
  24 Sept 2023, 06:30:36 , Lap 14
  
  CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 11
  24 Sept 2023, 06:30:29 , Lap 14
  
  DOUBLE YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 11
  24 Sept 2023, 06:29:47 , Lap 14
  
  CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 12
  24 Sept 2023, 06:29:34 , Lap 14
  
  CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 11
  24 Sept 2023, 06:29:34 , Lap 14
  
  VIRTUAL SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED
  24 Sept 2023, 06:29:34 , Lap 14
  
  CAR 14 (ALO) TIME 1:39.884 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 9 LAP 9 14:21:53
  24 Sept 2023, 06:28:36 , Lap 13
  
  CAR 11 (PER) TIME 1:40.896 DELETED - TRACK LIMITS AT TURN 14 LAP 11 14:25:51
  24 Sept 2023, 06:28:16 , Lap 13
  
  TURN 11 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 11 (PER) AND 20 (MAG) NOTED - CAUSING A COLLISION
  24 Sept 2023, 06:28:14 , Lap 13
  
  TRACK SURFACE SLIPPERY IN TRACK SECTOR 12
  24 Sept 2023, 06:27:50 , Lap 13
  
  TRACK SURFACE SLIPPERY IN TRACK SECTOR 11
  24 Sept 2023, 06:27:45 , Lap 13
  
  CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 11
  24 Sept 2023, 06:27:35 , Lap 12
  
  CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 12
  24 Sept 2023, 06:27:32 , Lap 12
  
  DOUBLE YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 11
  24 Sept 2023, 06:27:25 , Lap 12
  
  YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 11
  24 Sept 2023, 06:27:22 , Lap 12
  
  DOUBLE YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 12
  24 Sept 2023, 06:27:17 , Lap 12
  
  YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 12
  24 Sept 2023, 06:27:16 , Lap 12
  
  FIA STEWARDS: 5 SECOND TIME PENALTY FOR CAR 11 (PER) - SAFETY CAR INFRINGEMENT
  24 Sept 2023, 06:22:37 , Lap 9
  
  FIA STEWARDS: 5 SECOND TIME PENALTY FOR CAR 2 (SAR) - CAUSING A COLLISION
  24 Sept 2023, 06:21:31 , Lap 9
  
  FIA STEWARDS: TURN 11 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 77 (BOT) AND 2 (SAR) UNDER INVESTIGATION - CAUSING A COLLISION
  24 Sept 2023, 06:20:35 , Lap 8
  
  FIA STEWARDS: INCIDENT INVOLVING CAR 11 (PER) UNDER INVESTIGATION - SAFETY CAR INFRINGEMENT
  24 Sept 2023, 06:20:27 , Lap 8
  
  FIA STEWARDS: LAP 1 TURN 1 REVIEWED NO FURTHER INVESTIGATION
  24 Sept 2023, 06:19:38 , Lap 8
  
  TURN 11 INCIDENT INVOLVING CARS 77 (BOT) AND 2 (SAR) NOTED - CAUSING A COLLISION
  24 Sept 2023, 06:18:34 , Lap 7
  
  DRS ENABLED
  24 Sept 2023, 06:18:00 , Lap 7
  
  CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 11
  24 Sept 2023, 06:17:25 , Lap 6
  
  CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 12
  24 Sept 2023, 06:17:13 , Lap 6
  
  TRACK SURFACE SLIPPERY IN TRACK SECTOR 12
  24 Sept 2023, 06:17:07 , Lap 6
  
  TRACK SURFACE SLIPPERY IN TRACK SECTOR 11
  24 Sept 2023, 06:16:55 , Lap 6
  
  CAR 77 (BOT) OFF TRACK AND CONTINUED AT TURN 11
  24 Sept 2023, 06:16:02 , Lap 5
  
  TRACK CLEAR
  24 Sept 2023, 06:13:56 , Lap 4
  
  SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP
  24 Sept 2023, 06:12:41 , Lap 4
  
  CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 2
  24 Sept 2023, 06:12:36 , Lap 4
  
  INCIDENT INVOLVING CAR 11 (PER) NOTED - SAFETY CAR INFRINGEMENT
  24 Sept 2023, 06:11:45 , Lap 4
  
  LAP 1 TURN 1 NOTED
  24 Sept 2023, 06:08:44 , Lap 2
  
  DOUBLE YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 2
  24 Sept 2023, 06:06:30 , Lap 2
  
  SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED
  24 Sept 2023, 06:05:18 , Lap 1
  
  CLEAR IN TRACK SECTOR 4
  24 Sept 2023, 06:04:38 , Lap 1
  
  YELLOW IN TRACK SECTOR 4
  24 Sept 2023, 06:04:32 , Lap 1
  
  GREEN LIGHT - PIT EXIT OPEN
  24 Sept 2023, 06:04:05 , Lap 1
  
  DRS DISABLED
  24 Sept 2023, 05:57:04 , Lap 1
  
  RISK OF RAIN FOR F1 RACE IS 0%
  24 Sept 2023, 05:45:06 , Lap 1
  
  PIT EXIT CLOSED
  24 Sept 2023, 05:20:00 , Lap 1
  
  GREEN LIGHT - PIT EXIT OPEN
  24 Sept 2023, 05:10:00 , Lap 1

  
  

 
Thanks!
 
I foolishly thought they had more correct time-stamp on the official documents.

Perez was under investigation for causing a collision as he was a short way to the final chicane.   A few seconds later as hes entering the pits the time penalty come through as he passed the start of the armco.

 
Well, that's suddenly a very curious one then. I guess the next question then is - when did the stewards notify Red Bull.

Edited by Myrvold, 24 September 2023 - 20:52.

[Mishvili]

So he (PER) probably hadn’t even served the first (SC) penalty at time of retirement, let alone the second?

[Myrvold]

So he (PER) probably hadn’t even served the first (SC) penalty at time of retirement, let alone the second?

 

He served the first one when he pitted after he spun Magnussen. That's how the Norris - Perez under VSC happened.

[Clatter]

I thought so too, but maybe I dreamed it?? Weird. I also have a vague memory of one of McLaren basically having to say yup, genuine retirement, gov, honest.

 

Doubting everything because in all honesty, I remember a hell of a lot wrong.

 

It's possible it was dropped when they changed to set number of components for the season.

[Carsey]

Red Bull would have got the message at the same time as everyone else,  on the race control messages screen.

Probably a bit late to get a pit crew to react to that as your car is entering the pits as the penalty is issues.

 

IF I sync the live feed up with the race control messages panel - its literally 1/2second to a second behind the chequered flag coming out to when the message pops up.

[Mishvili]

He served the first one when he pitted after he spun Magnussen. That's how the Norris - Perez under VSC happened.

Ok thanks. Difficult to keep up with all Perez adventures.

[Myrvold]

Red Bull would have got the message at the same time as everyone else,  on the race control messages screen.

Probably a bit late to get a pit crew to react to that as your car is entering the pits as the penalty is issues.

 

IF I sync the live feed up with the race control messages panel - its literally 1/2second to a second behind the chequered flag coming out to when the message pops up.

 

Well. There is no "if in pitlane" excemption for serving a penalty, except for:

 

However, unless the driver was already in the pit entry for the purpose of serving his penalty, he may not carry out the penalty if the VSC procedure is in use or after the safety car has been deployed.

[Myrvold]

Ok thanks. Difficult to keep up with all Perez adventures.

 

That's true.

[Carsey]

Well. There is no "if in pitlane" excemption for serving a penalty, except for:

Not sure what your getting at there.

When Perez received his penalty for the collision with Magnusson - he was just about entering the pit entry lane.

As I said - probably not enough time for RB to react properly to the penalty - hence why he went back out to clear it. If he had got the penalty and did another lap before coming in to ‘retire’ I imagine the mechanics would have not touched the car

[pdac]

That's where the "driver leaving the car" thing pops in. I seem to remember "back in the days" (which now is after the year 2000) when drivers were taken into the garage, with the idea that they would rejoin for testing-purposes or whatever. Then they all sat in their car in the garage waiting. They never left. Maybe that was one of the many Bernie-FOM-FIA unwritten rules of the time?

 

How far 'back in the day'? Because I'm sure way back in the day, the driver got out and helped change the tyres.

[Mishvili]

Not sure what your getting at there.

When Perez received his penalty for the collision with Magnusson - he was just about entering the pit entry lane.

As I said - probably not enough time for RB to react properly to the penalty - hence why he went back out to clear it. If he had got the penalty and did another lap before coming in to ‘retire’ I imagine the mechanics would have not touched the car

I think the point is that you can’t serve a penalty under SC/VSC (it would be very “cheap” because of the time advantages of pitting under SC), even if you have already entered the pit lane to serve an existing penalty at time VSC is deployed.

[Clatter]

That's where the "driver leaving the car" thing pops in. I seem to remember "back in the days" (which now is after the year 2000) when drivers were taken into the garage, with the idea that they would rejoin for testing-purposes or whatever. Then they all sat in their car in the garage waiting. They never left. Maybe that was one of the many Bernie-FOM-FIA unwritten rules of the time?

 

After Russells Silverstone crash last year, where he left the car to try and help, intending to jump back in and carry on, they introduced a rule that if the driver leaves the car while out on track, that's the end of their race. Don't think that has ever applied to car in the garage.

[Myrvold]

Not sure what your getting at there.

When Perez received his penalty for the collision with Magnusson - he was just about entering the pit entry lane.

As I said - probably not enough time for RB to react properly to the penalty - hence why he went back out to clear it. If he had got the penalty and did another lap before coming in to ‘retire’ I imagine the mechanics would have not touched the car

 

That there are no exceptions for being allowed to touch the car even if the message comes through late. So technically it should've been a reaction to that as well.

If he did retire, there are parc ferme protocols in place. If he didn't retired, then the penalty wasn't served correctly.