188 replies to this topic

[Clatter]

Does matter for some, but I find it interesting that there seemingly is not rule that determines when a car is retired. Will be even more interesting when one a day a retired car suddenly shows up, at the right place, the right time,  and decide a championship. That discussion would last well more than 3 pages

I always considered getting out of the car equals "throw in the towel", and you can never unthrow the towel, but I was obviously wrong. 

 

For me, this is not the first time I've seen a car repaired during the race, driver not in it, and then rejoin the race. The teams could use it as a test session, and sometimes in high attrition races they had a chance of picking up points, even being several laps behind. Not saying it happened often, and it's not something I can recall happening for a long time. The only difference here was the reason for the team doing it. I still think the main reason many have their knickers in a twist about it, is because it was Red Bull that did it. I'm actually surprised that in this low test era more teams haven't done it to gather data when they have been having setup issues.

[PayasYouRace]

You are not getting off that easy. If you accuse me of something, which you are doing all the time nowadays, you need to back it up somehow.


Here is my posts in this thread to make it easier for you:


That's a bit unrelated, but I include it anyway


My first really thread related, post. In (almost) every race we hear about cars "retiring". What does it actually mean? My thought was that the answer to that would also clear up the 'unretiring' in the thread title.


Someone thought clarification was unnecessary and questioned my motives

I stated that I have no interests invested here


This one is fun, now when we know there are no rules. That does not prevent some people to think they are clear.


Another one explaining what I want.

Well, I was generally curious.

After again being told what I think and what I believe.

Here you chip and tell me about my opinions, but you are very vague and I really want to know more about myself. Please do tell!

How about going back through the posts that aren’t by you and read the ones that say what the rules are?

[IrvTheSwerve]

For me, this is not the first time I've seen a car repaired during the race, driver not in it, and then rejoin the race. The teams could use it as a test session, and sometimes in high attrition races they had a chance of picking up points, even being several laps behind. Not saying it happened often, and it's not something I can recall happening for a long time. The only difference here was the reason for the team doing it. I still think the main reason many have their knickers in a twist about it, is because it was Red Bull that did it. I'm actually surprised that in this low test era more teams haven't done it to gather data when they have been having setup issues.

 

Yep - I'm unsure why this has caused any kind of furore. My understanding has always been that as long as a car has got back to the pits under its own power, they can do whatever the hell they like with it for the remainder of the race and the driver can get in or out as they please. They can send it out whenever they like (or not).

 

I haven't read every single post in this thread but I'm assuming that is correct. 

[Primo]

How about going back through the posts that aren’t by you and read the ones that say what the rules are?

I did but I did not find them, that is why I asked for your help, since you obviously know, to identify them. I am of course talking about posts made before my query since my subsequent posts has merely been me defending and explaining that query.

[Clatter]

Yep - I'm unsure why this has caused any kind of furore. My understanding has always been that as long as a car has got back to the pits under its own power, they can do whatever the hell they like with it for the remainder of the race and the driver can get in or out as they please. They can send it out whenever they like (or not).

I haven't read every single post in this thread but I'm assuming that is correct.

The really stupid thing is that it was all clarified during the race by the team with the FIA, and still people are kicking off.

[PayasYouRace]

Interesting that the word “retire” only appears twice in the sporting regulations.

34.14, dealing with a driver who retires in track after an unsafe release, and

54.3, dealing with penalties and specifically, what to do if a driver retires from the sprint or race.

https://www.fia.com/..._2022-09-30.pdf

It’s not defined so we must take it to mean failing to finish. Classified finishers are those who complete 90% of the laps covered by the winner, rounded down (61.2 and 62.2).

[Primo]

Interesting that the word “retire” only appears twice in the sporting regulations.


It’s not defined so we must take it to mean failing to finish. Classified finishers are those who complete 90% of the laps covered by the winner, rounded down (61.2 and 62.2).

Wait - the wording there kind of suggest that you are not certain? It also appears to me that your post in itself indicates that you believe that there is still room for discussions and interpretations here? 

Oh my... just when we thought everything was cleared up.

[PayasYouRace]

I’m quite certain. That’s why I said “must”.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I'm pretty sure, but I may be wrong, we never see the word 'retired' or 'DNF' on any of the TV feed until the end of the race when the classification is shown. We only see the driver's name dimmed out on the race standings. Technically you aren't retired until the end of the race.

[Primo]

I’m quite certain. That’s why I said “must”.

Anyways, I am awaiting the proof of your accusations. Or an apology. Your choice.

[Bleu]

Does matter for some, but I find it interesting that there seemingly is not rule that determines when a car is retired. Will be even more interesting when one a day a retired car suddenly shows up, at the right place, the right time,  and decide a championship. That discussion would last well more than 3 pages

I always considered getting out of the car equals "throw in the towel", and you can never unthrow the towel, but I was obviously wrong. 

 

With a red flag rule as of 2000-2004 (only used in 2001 Belgian Grand Prix though) I wonder if team would have been able to bring the car back to the race on the same lap as the leader. The race result was taken from the second part of the race which in the case above was 36 laps, while the result from first four laps decided the starting grid for the latter part.

[SophieB]

I'm pretty sure, but I may be wrong, we never see the word 'retired' or 'DNF' on any of the TV feed until the end of the race when the classification is shown. We only see the driver's name dimmed out on the race standings. Technically you aren't retired until the end of the race.

I think you see ‘OUT’ during the race, although not 100% sure.

[Ivanhoe]

I think you see ‘OUT’ during the race, although not 100% sure.

That’s correct. Would be interesting to see if Perez was indicated as OUT on the time timer.

[SophieB]

That’s correct. Would be interesting to see if Perez was indicated as OUT on the time timer.

it would be funny if they just kept showing ever longer deficits as cars sit in the garage.

[pdac]

I think you see ‘OUT’ during the race, although not 100% sure.

 

The FIA use the term DNF in their communications. FOM/Liberty are responsible for the tower, so they are using the term OUT, not the FIA. As for "retired", everyone seems to use the term. I think it's fair to say that it means a car that has stopped competing. But is it a permanent state or not? Undefined.

[pdac]

it would be funny if they just kept showing ever longer deficits as cars sit in the garage.

 

Don't they use "PIT" when the car is in the pits? They'd just have to keep that on screen until the car comes out again or it's the end of the race.

Edited by pdac, 26 September 2023 - 16:09.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I think you see ‘OUT’ during the race, although not 100% sure.

True, quite a vague term I guess…maybe it’s intentional. 

[Myrvold]

"The incident between x and y will be investigated after the race". Seen that plenty of times, why not in this case?

Because the penalty was given before he "retired".
If there is time and the car(s) in danger of getting a penalty are still in the race, they tend to try and get it done during the race.

[Heyli]

That’s correct. Would be interesting to see if Perez was indicated as OUT on the time timer.

Not really. That standing/timing overview is just for TV, not like it has any official meaning. Like for example there is a red flag right at the start. They'll never go "We'll just take whatever was at the timing screen as the order of the cars".

[MikeTekRacing]

I think there's a certain threshold where common sense and discretion has to apply. Maybe I'm foolish, ignorant, whatever, but that's what I think!

One could argue common sense might be to just remove the cars between the championship contenders on the last lap so we have a motor race.
You didn’t like that, did you?

[Mark521]

I think you see ‘OUT’ during the race, although not 100% sure.

 

I will have to see if I can get the F1 timing to show a replay but I'd swear they would show a red RET.

Now, to be clear, this "Live Timing" car status is shared for "convenience" so it really isn't official.

I'm not sure there is a definition of the "car status" during a session, unless it's been black flagged/DSQ? 

[PayasYouRace]

The FIA use the term DNF in their communications. FOM/Liberty are responsible for the tower, so they are using the term OUT, not the FIA. As for "retired", everyone seems to use the term. I think it's fair to say that it means a car that has stopped competing. But is it a permanent state or not? Undefined.

I’d be interested if there’s a manual process involved or if there’s an automatic system where if a car doesn’t cross a timing beam after a certain amount of time it’s assumed to be out.

 

I think you see ‘OUT’ during the race, although not 100% sure.

I’m not sure. In my head OUT is displayed during practice and qualifying when a car is on an out lap.

[SophieB]

I’d be interested if there’s a manual process involved or if there’s an automatic system where if a car doesn’t cross a timing beam after a certain amount of time it’s assumed to be out.

 

I’m not sure. In my head OUT is displayed during practice and qualifying when a car is on an out lap.

 

Hmmmn, now I'm wondering if that's what I've wrongly been picturing too. 

 

All this would probably be a bit depressing to read for the person who designs the onscreen graphics!

[pdac]

I’d be interested if there’s a manual process involved or if there’s an automatic system where if a car doesn’t cross a timing beam after a certain amount of time it’s assumed to be out.

 

I’m not sure. In my head OUT is displayed during practice and qualifying when a car is on an out lap.

 

The screenshot shown above shows the lap count. So it's not taken from a qualifying session.

[kralizec]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it yet, but... didn't one FE championship get decided by a couple "unretired" cars trading fast laps for the extra point with long periods in the pits between attempts, which in turn led to the current rule that the point only awarded if the FL is done by the top 10?

P.S.: It was Season 2: https://www.fia.com/...ason-two-finale

[MikeTekRacing]

The real conversation should be (again) about how 5s penalties are useless. Not about serving it.

- is serving it in a VSC a loophole?

- is pulling a 5s gap and making it useless another loophole?

- there is no rule for a loophole in this case. You are given a 5s penalty which you can serve at the race or, if unable to - at the next one.  they were able to serve it at this race.

[pdac]

It seems to me that the procedure should be that if you cannot, for whatever reason, serve any penalties at the race, then they are converted to WDC and WCC points losses. Don't carry things over to the next race.

[Ivanhoe]

Why should a non-served x sec penalty be converted to a grid place or WDC/WCC points penalty? I see no problem at all in serving a x sec penalty st the next race.

[pdac]

Why should a non-served x sec penalty be converted to a grid place or WDC/WCC points penalty? I see no problem at all in serving a x sec penalty st the next race.

 

In my opinion, each race should be a separate event. Everything should be reset. There should be no carry-overs, That's why.

[AlcidioG]

It seems to me that the procedure should be that if you cannot, for whatever reason, serve any penalties at the race, then they are converted to WDC and WCC points losses. Don't carry things over to the next race.

 

So if any of this happens in the 1st race of the season we go with negative points?

[pdac]

So if any of this happens in the 1st race of the season we go with negative points?

 

Why not?

 

I guess why not - because it saves them a few quid on their super licence for the next season (so, actually a benefit).

Edited by pdac, 27 September 2023 - 09:19.

[PayasYouRace]

So if any of this happens in the 1st race of the season we go with negative points?

I don’t see why a points deduction can’t be held until the end of the season. That’s the only time the points totals actually matter.

[pdac]

I don’t see why a points deduction can’t be held until the end of the season. That’s the only time the points totals actually matter.

 

It would still be known the moment it was issued - unless you think the decision should not be made until the end of the season (which would lead to all sorts of accusations of favouritism as soon as any driver or team drops below another one).

[PayasYouRace]

It would still be known the moment it was issued - unless you think the decision should not be made until the end of the season (which would lead to all sorts of accusations of favouritism as soon as any driver or team drops below another one).

No. Just saying than rather than having negative points (which is the optics people seem to want to avoid), just deduct them when the points become available, or at the end of the season. Perhaps if they don’t score enough points, just leave them on zero?

[milestone 11]

 


I’m not sure. In my head OUT is displayed during practice and qualifying when a car is on an out lap.

Just checked, The ladder says "No Time", "Out Lap", or an actual time. There's an additional box on left of this which says "P", when in pit.

[milestone 11]

In my opinion, each race should be a separate event. Everything should be reset. There should be no carry-overs, That's why.

What if an incident, deserving of o serious penalty, puts the driver out of the race? That penalty must be carried over.

[AlcidioG]

No. Just saying than rather than having negative points (which is the optics people seem to want to avoid), just deduct them when the points become available, or at the end of the season. Perhaps if they don’t score enough points, just leave them on zero?

And so teams/drivers with 0 chance of scoring points can do whatever they want as any penalty is a non penalty. So we can return to the real penalties thread again

[PayasYouRace]

And so teams/drivers with 0 chance of scoring points can do whatever they want as any penalty is a non penalty. So we can return to the real penalties thread again

Given the aims are to score points, I’m not sure what doing whatever they want would get them.

[FirstnameLastname]

Not sure if already discussed but I’m certain this used to happen a lot in the past. Did DC not rejoin the 98 Belgian GP when they realised there might be less finishers than points places?

Edit: just checked and he did indeed. Only finished 7th thou

And these days, that infamous Schumi incident would have copped some sort of penalty for sure

Edited by FirstnameLastname, 28 September 2023 - 19:18.