215 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

So this season could have been a corker if the 2nd Redbull had a competent driver in it. But the problem is… it does. Perez was brilliant at Force India… but when in top teams like his stints in McLaren and Redbull have shown he can’t make the best of a good car. Ok he’s had some alright races - but this year has been abysmal. And McLaren quickly booted him back out.


Any other examples of this? Half decent/superb Journeymen who fluffed their chances to shine.

And what could cause it? Unless Perez is truely showing us the ability of the Redbull in good hands - and max is just hyper talented and can squeeze the extra from a car that is only worthy of the mid-points.

[Nemo1965]

So this season could have been a corker if the 2nd Redbull had a competent driver in it. But the problem is… it does. Perez was brilliant at Force India… but when in top teams like his stints in McLaren and Redbull have shown he can’t make the best of a good car. Ok he’s had some alright races - but this year has been abysmal. And McLaren quickly booted him back out.


Any other examples of this? Half decent/superb Journeymen who fluffed their chances to shine.

And what could cause it? Unless Perez is truely showing us the ability of the Redbull in good hands - and max is just hyper talented and can squeeze the extra from a car that is only worthy of the mid-points.

 

This topic has been discussed a lot in the Nostalgia Forum. I can give you the best or worst example: Dave Walker, teammate of Emerson Fittipaldi in the all conquering Lotus 72 in 1972. Emerson Fittipaldi won five races and scored 61 points, winning the championship. Walker: zero points. James Hunt was the most amazed that Walker flopped - and everybody should have been because Walker had won 25 of the 32 F3-races he had entered. That is Senna-like-stuff. A very dramatic example of the Peter Principle.

[H0R]

Frentzen at Williams wasn't exactly a success either.

[derstatic]

Fisichella comes to mind

[JG]

Frentzen, yes. But I like to say Heikki Kovalainen, who I thought was the new Mika..

[krea]

Frentzen actually performed very well once he got a good car in 1999. 

[potmotr]

Barrichello at Brawn, 2009

[noikeee]

Perez was brilliant at Force India…

That's news to me.

[SophieB]

Frentzen at Williams wasn't exactly a success either.

The one I’ll always think of. Shouldn’t have sacked Damon Hill!

(I’ll get over it one day, I’m sure)

[ARTGP]

Montoya in the '05 Mclaren. I wouldn't call Montoya a journeyman though. Just felt like he wasn't as quick as Raikkonen, DNFs aside. 

Edited by ARTGP, 26 September 2023 - 19:02.

[potmotr]

You CAN NOT mark Barichellos career as a flop.

 

Not suggesting his career was a flop.

I'm suggesting Brawn 2009 was his only chance in a decent dominant car where he was on equal terms with the other driver.. and sadly he flopped, in terms of championship success.

[FirstnameLastname]

The one I’ll always think of. Shouldn’t have sacked Damon Hill!
(I’ll get over it one day, I’m sure)

But two years later frentzen rocked up and blew hill out of the water at Jordan

[potmotr]

Berger at McLaren in 1990? 

[potmotr]

Takuma Sato, BAR 2004 and (especially) 2005 

[potmotr]

Jacques Villeneuve, Renault 2004 

[H0R]

Rosberg the Elder at McLaren

[H0R]

Berger at McLaren in 1990? 

When you are going head to head with Senna it is difficult to come out on top. I wouldn't call him a flop.

[ensign14]

This topic has been discussed a lot in the Nostalgia Forum. I can give you the best or worst example: Dave Walker, teammate of Emerson Fittipaldi in the all conquering Lotus 72 in 1972. Emerson Fittipaldi won five races and scored 61 points, winning the championship. Walker: zero points. James Hunt was the most amazed that Walker flopped - and everybody should have been because Walker had won 25 of the 32 F3-races he had entered. That is Senna-like-stuff. A very dramatic example of the Peter Principle.

Also of how technique does not work for everything.  The story was that Walker was a bit rock ape in F3, but it worked with the lower power environment where he could hustle through in the best car in the field.  But in F1 he needed to be smooth and he simply couldn't.  He had 4WD in the wet at Zandvoort yet managed to bin it.

 

Similar to Zanardi.  Not smooth enough for F1.  But rough enough for Indycar.

 

An earlier example.  Behra won a world championship-standard race in a Gordini.  In 1957 he had a car that won the world title, in 1959 one that was capable of it; but no Championship wins.  Different sport in terms of reliability and number of races (he did win a high-quality non-title race in the 250F) but he seemed to be too abrasive to take advantage.

[Astandahl]

Jacques Villeneuve, Renault 2004 

They fired Trulli because he was too close to Alonso

 

The one lap goat was cooking that season

Edited by Astandahl, 26 September 2023 - 19:24.

[potmotr]

When you are going head to head with Senna it is difficult to come out on top. I wouldn't call him a flop.

 

Didn't get his first win at McLaren until October 1991, I think 1990 was definitely a let down, considering McLaren was at the height of its powers. 

[potmotr]

Webber, 2009 to 2013?

 

Very harsh I know, but the guy next to him dominated for a large period of that time. 

[Collombin]

Didn't get his first win at McLaren until October 1991

I would rather lose than win like that, although he seemed happy enough about it.

[Cornholio]

Rosberg the Elder at McLaren

 

I wouldn't include Keke in this, or JPM mentioned further up for that matter. They both raced, and won in, Williamses that at least for periods of time were top cars in their own right. End of 1985 and mid 2003 arguably the out and out quickest. So it was more a case of swapping one top team for another and it not working out for whatever reason, general chemistry, struggling against the incumbent teammate etc. Ickx to Lotus for 1974 comes to mind for this too.

 

I wouldn't put them in the same category as the Fisichellas and Frentzens

Edited by Cornholio, 26 September 2023 - 19:37.

[Collombin]

Ickx to Lotus for 1974 comes to mind for this too.

I doubt anyone witnessing his Paddock Hill Bend overtake on Lauda could have guessed how either of their careers would pan out from then on.

[potmotr]

I would rather lose than win like that, although he seemed happy enough about it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but Berger never won a race at McLaren through outright performance.

 

Suzuka '91 - Gift from Senna

 

Canada '92 - Race of attrition, Mansell, Senna and Patrese retired ahead of him 

 

Australia '92 - Race of attrition, Mansell and Senna crashed out, Patrese retired ahead of him 

[prty]

They fired Trulli because he was too close to Alonso

 

The one lap goat was cooking that season

  Sure, things like these had nothing to do with it:

 

[LolaB0860]

Not suggesting his career was a flop.

I'm suggesting Brawn 2009 was his only chance in a decent dominant car where he was on equal terms with the other driver.. and sadly he flopped, in terms of championship success.

 

His first half of the season was terrible but second one was pretty great (apart from some instances)

 

Button's first half of the season was amazing but second one was almost as terrible as Barrichello's first half, but he sort of managed to pull it through

 

And for that reason I wouldn't call that season "flop" for Barrichello since it wasn't that amazing for Button either. Sadly all everyone will ever remember is that Button won the title - and that run of dominating wins at the start.

 

No-one also remembers how Barrichello beat Button in that crappy Honda in 2008

Edited by LolaB0860, 26 September 2023 - 19:51.

[potmotr]

  Sure, things like these had nothing to do with it:

 

 

What were the different strategies at play here? I've always thought that looked like an insane difference in grip! 

[JHSingo]

Webber, 2009 to 2013?

 

Very harsh I know, but the guy next to him dominated for a large period of that time. 

 

I wouldn't say 2009-2010. He nearly won the championship in 2010, and was the leading Red Bull in the points heading into Abu Dhabi. 

 

Webber's form dropped off with the introduction of the Pirelli tyres in 2011, which seemingly didn't suit his style. Before then, he wasn't a million miles from Seb, and at some races would outperform him significantly. 

Edited by JHSingo, 26 September 2023 - 19:51.

[potmotr]

And for that reason I wouldn't call that season "flop" for Barrichello since it wasn't that amazing for Button either. Sadly all everyone will ever remember is that Button won the title - and that run of dominating wins at the start.

 

I considered 2009 as the one true chance Barrichello had to prove he was at world champion level. The narrative had always been that he didn't get a fair chance at Ferrari because it was built around Schumacher. When he finally gets into a true championship-winning car he bottled it and Button ran away with the championship in the first half of the season. By the second half, when Barichello came good, the rest of the field had caught up with Brawn and their advantage was gone. Truly a one in a lifetime opportunity for Barrichello, but Button got the title. Therefore a flop in my book, harsh as that sounds. 

[LolaB0860]

I considered 2009 as the one true chance Barrichello had to prove he was at world champion level. The narrative had always been that he didn't get a fair chance at Ferrari because it was built around Schumacher. When he finally gets into a true championship-winning car he bottled it and Button ran away with the championship in the first half of the season. By the second half, when Barichello came good, the rest of the field had caught up with Brawn and their advantage was gone. Truly a one in a lifetime opportunity for Barrichello, but Button got the title. Therefore a flop in my book, harsh as that sounds. 

 

Well yeah from that viewpoint maybe

 

I don't think there were any dilemmas of fairness for that season apart from Barcelona where Button got handed the better strategy

Edited by LolaB0860, 26 September 2023 - 19:59.

[Risil]

Suzuka '91 - Gift from Senna

 

Berger led Senna for the first third of the 1991 Japanese Grand Prix; when Nigel Mansell crashed while trying to pressure Senna they were actually racing for second. Wikipedia implies Berger then let Senna through and then Senna returned the favour at the end of the race. I have no idea if this last bit is accurate.

[messy]

Webber is the opposite to Fisichella. Both got their ‘top car’ chance very late in their careers, at 32-33 and with a younger and more fancied talent alongside them. Webber succeeded because he had that drive to upset the odds, Fisichella failed because he just didn’t. I’d probably argue Fisi was a more talented driver than Webber, but he didn’t have the same edge to him, he admits it himself in hindsight.

Personally, I expected more of Barrichello at Ferrari. That’s very harsh given that he did pretty well and was a semi regular winner through his years there but in the mid to late 1990s I really thought Rubens was the outstanding young driver not at a top team, especially in 1999 when he absolutely destroyed Herbert but somehow wasn’t the guy to win the race when the chance came. Brazil, I was on my feet willing him on there, France too but the fuel tank wasn’t big enough. He went into Ferrari believing he could give Schumacher a run for his money and so did I, remember being so excited at the thought of Ferrari having two strong drivers just like McLaren. And ultimately he was probably better than Irvine had been and had some nice highlights, but Schumacher had him in his pocket.

[ensign14]

I wouldn't include Keke in this, or JPM mentioned further up for that matter. They both raced, and won in, Williamses that at least for periods of time were top cars in their own right.

Although you can use Keke as a jump-off point for Derek Daly, who spent much of 1982 pootling around in lower midfield in a title-winning car.  Had one shot at winning a GP and binned it with about 4 miles to go.

 

And 1982 provided a redemption story for Patrick Tambay, who could have been in this thread, having nearly scored podia for Teddy Yip in 1977 but flopping hard at McLaren - OK, not a good McLaren, but still competitive - in 1978, and no points at all in 1979.  His 1981 season is this thread; a point for Theodore, none for race-winning Ligier.

[potmotr]

Berger led Senna for the first third of the 1991 Japanese Grand Prix; when Nigel Mansell crashed while trying to pressure Senna they were actually racing for second. Wikipedia implies Berger then let Senna through and then Senna returned the favour at the end of the race. I have no idea if this last bit is accurate.

 

I think you might be right actually: 

 

https://youtu.be/k5jzK7EQRAs?t=683

[eibyyz]

On this side of the Atlantic--Wheldon at Ganassi. And Mario at Parnelli.

Edited by eibyyz, 26 September 2023 - 20:06.

[Touchdown]

That's news to me.

Really?

 

Wouldn't think it's controversial at all to say Perez was brilliant at Force India.

[messy]

Really?

Wouldn't think it's controversial at all to say Perez was brilliant at Force India.

I think all this thread kinda shows is that sometimes it’s much easier to look like a hero in a mid-grid car with a more ordinary team mate alongside you than it is when you get into a top car against a World Champion. I kinda suspect Perez at Force India falls into that category. He did well, but other drivers in those cars probably would have got the same kind of results.

You see little flashes of what’s possible when drivers who turn out to be top tier talents start out in mid-grid cars. A seventeen year old Max Verstappen taking his Toro Rosso to two fourth places, Charles Leclerc taking a Sauber that was expected to be back of the grid fodder to regular top ten finishes on merit, Sebastian Vettel winning from pole in a Toro Rosso, Alonso elevating a brick slow Minardi way up off the back of the grid.

Edited by messy, 26 September 2023 - 20:31.

[ForzaFormula]

Perez is like the biggest failure ever.

 

Even Mercedes in 2016 with Rosberg & Hamilton, RedBull have a bigger points gap to second, that is how fast this car is, despite Perez performing so bad the gap is so large, with a much better performing driver in that second seat the gap to the rest would be even more ridiculous.

Edited by ForzaFormula, 26 September 2023 - 20:41.

[expert]

What were the different strategies at play here? I've always thought that looked like an insane difference in grip! 

Well, he should have covered the inside.

 

But not a sackable offence in itself, there was definitely more going on behind the scenes with that firing.

[Ruusperi]

I considered 2009 as the one true chance Barrichello had to prove he was at world champion level.

I think the chance came too late for Barrichello. He was 37 while Button was 29. If Rubens had been 10 years younger, like he was at Stewart Grand Prix, I think he would have beaten Button.

 

There are just so many reasons why drivers flop: they are inexperienced, they are too old, the car doesn't suit them, they pair with GOAT, their team mate gets favored, or maybe they are decent but they compete in an era where competition is too tough.

Edited by Ruusperi, 26 September 2023 - 20:57.

[ForzaFormula]

I think the chance came too late for Barrichello. He was 37 while Button was 29. If Rubens had been 10 years younger, like he was at Stewart Grand Prix, I think would have beaten Button.

There are just so many reasons why drivers flop: they are inexperienced, they are too old, the car doesn't suit them, they pair with GOAT, their team mate gets favored, or maybe they are decent but they compete in an era where competition is too tough.

I completely disagree Button would still have beaten him easily.

[expert]

It's been talked about how underwhelming Kimi was after the move to Ferrari - considering the expectations on him as the Schuey replacement. Although I don't know if we can consider that a "flop" given he collected a championship!

[ConsiderAndGo]

It's been talked about how underwhelming Kimi was after the move to Ferrari - considering the expectations on him as the Schuey replacement. Although I don't know if we can consider that a "flop" given he collected a championship!

You definitely can’t consider it a flop!

[Ruusperi]

I completely disagree Button would still have beaten him easily.

In that case failing to win WDC in 2009 wasn't a flop for Barrichello if he never had a realistic chance in any age.

[Clatter]

Surprised no one has mentioned Bottas. Think Coulthard fits the bill as well.

Edited by Clatter, 26 September 2023 - 21:03.

[potmotr]

Coulthard 1995, 1998 and 1999 are definitely candidates! 

[Button4life]

Ricciardo at McLaren in 2021

[pacificquay]

Didn't get his first win at McLaren until October 1991, I think 1990 was definitely a let down, considering McLaren was at the height of its powers. 

He did win Canada 1990 on the road by 46 seconds but had a 1 minute time penalty for jumping the start.

 

These days you’d probably only get 5 seconds!

[Astandahl]

  Sure, things like these had nothing to do with it:

 

Trulli won a race that season and had pretty much the same amount of points as Alonso.

 

"In 2004, Trulli bounced back to challenge Alonso 6-4 in counting races, 8-7 in qualifying, and 46-50 in points"

 

Yeah they sure fired him for that mistake

Edited by Astandahl, 26 September 2023 - 21:18.