215 replies to this topic

[Rediscoveryx]

Heidfeld in the 2008 BNW Sauber comes to mind. Actually a very good car, but Heidfeld couldn’t get his quali’s together which meant he always had to come back from way behind. I feel he was better than Kubica that year, just not on one lap pace.

Well, they were certainly considerably closer than what the general hindsight perception would have you believe.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 02 October 2023 - 19:14.

[messy]

Heidfeld vs Kubica is the strangest disconnect I can remember between the reality (that they were very close) and the perception (that Kubica was an absolute superstar and the best driver of 2008 while Heidfeld was solid and uninspiring). Generally the 2008 qualifying thing was muddied by fuel loads anyway although clearly Kubica was well ahead on Saturdays that season, but over their three years they were very closely matched. Heidfeld did well against Webber at Williams and against Kubica at BMW, holding his own against two drivers both renowned as great qualifiers. His battle with Montoya in F3000 too. It was a shame he never won a race, that’ll be what people remember him for.

[Anuity]

He also did well against Kimi, of course Kimi was a rookie, but still, and Nick only had driven a horrible Prost car in 2000.

 

as I remember at the time Webber was very much hyped, but my memory from the season was and still is thst Heidfeld was overall the better of the two. Quietly he was the first to score a podium, got second in Monaco, got the only pole for the team that year and scored more points than Mark during their races together. Mark only looked better in qualifyings really.

[F1Frog]

In the Autosport top ten lists, they put Heidfeld as 7th best driver never to win a race, and Kubica as 3rd best never to win a championship. That is an insane difference.

[potmotr]

Heidfeld was also extremely compliant in helping Kubica get his first win in Canada 2008.

[messy]

Maybe there needs to be a separate thread for ‘drivers who never got the credit they deserved for doing well’ because I’d definitely nominate Nick there. Also Kimi 2016-18, the “perfect” not even number two, number 1.5 to Vettel. Quick enough to regularly qualify up in the top three especially in ‘18, and challenge Mercedes on Seb’s off days (should have won more but didn’t seem to mind). Don’t begrudge them replacing him with Leclerc though, obviously.

Outside F1 I’ll nominate Jack Miller. Solid performer season after season at Pramac Ducati, signed for 2021 as factory team number one with the expectation that he’d be the title favourite immediately. Turned out he wasn’t up to it, two early summer wins aside. By mid season he was being leapfrogged by Pecco Bagnaia - who was signed basically because Ducati couldn’t think of anyone else - and who Miller destroyed in their two seasons together at Pramac.

[DW46]

In the Autosport top ten lists, they put Heidfeld as 7th best driver never to win a race, and Kubica as 3rd best never to win a championship. That is an insane difference.

One of Stirling, Gillies or Juan-Pablo being well trolled with that list.

[Collombin]

At least they are consistent, their 2008 end of year rankings were absent of the expected Hamwank, they rated Kubica top driver.

[Beri]

Who, I think, was not even the top driver that year. Leaving the championship contenders aside, I think Alonso was top dog that season. Kubica scored well, but that was mainly due to BMW having built quite a good car. The number of times Alonso finished close to the podium or was on it, was stunning for the dog of a car that R28 was. Looking at the standings, BMW was 50 points ahead of Renault. But Alonso being only 14 points adrift from Kubica. This alone says enough to me.

And yes, Singapore can be used as an excuse. But Japan certainly cant. That was a majestic drive together with Brazil.

[DW46]

Who, I think, was not even the top driver that year. Leaving the championship contenders aside, I think Alonso was top dog that season. Kubica scored well, but that was mainly due to BMW having built quite a good car. The number of times Alonso finished close to the podium or was on it, was stunning for the dog of a car that R28 was. Looking at the standings, BMW was 50 points ahead of Renault. But Alonso being only 14 points adrift from Kubica. This alone says enough to me.
And yes, Singapore can be used as an excuse. But Japan certainly cant. That was a majestic drive together with Brazil.

Agree re Alonso being the top guy in 08, particularly his second half of the year.

[F1Frog]

One of Stirling, Gillies or Juan-Pablo being well trolled with that list.

It was Moss #1 and Villeneuve #2 but Montoya didn’t make the list at all, I don’t think, and to be honest I agree with that. He wasn’t much better than Ralf Schumacher and was comfortably beaten by Kimi Raikkonen who is probably among the weaker champions.

And regarding 2008, I think Hamilton was the best driver that season. Yes he made some mistakes and was far from his best, and the Brazil drive was underwhelming, but he also had some particularly special races like Silverstone, Hockenheim and Spa-Francorchamps which make up for it. It wasn’t an amazing season but I don’t think Kubica or Alonso were special enough to beat it. I would put Alonso top based on the second half of the season.

Edited by F1Frog, 03 October 2023 - 09:46.

[DW46]

It was Moss #1 and Villeneuve #2 but Montoya didn’t make the list at all, I don’t think, and to be honest I agree with that. He wasn’t much better than Ralf Schumacher and was comfortably beaten by Kimi Raikkonen who is probably among the weaker champions.

And regarding 2008, I think Hamilton was the best driver that season. Yes he made some mistakes and was far from his best, and the Brazil drive was underwhelming, but he also had some particularly special races like Silverstone, Hockenheim and Spa-Francorchamps which make up for it. It wasn’t an amazing season but I don’t think Kubica or Alonso were special enough to beat it. I would put Alonso top based on the second half of the season.

08 was a strange one as it felt like Kimi was demotivated, Alonso had a weaker car and Hamilton wasn’t as solid as 07.

Really interesting few years in the run up to 2010 with the ever changing champions.

[PayasYouRace]

Who, I think, was not even the top driver that year. Leaving the championship contenders aside, I think Alonso was top dog that season. Kubica scored well, but that was mainly due to BMW having built quite a good car. The number of times Alonso finished close to the podium or was on it, was stunning for the dog of a car that R28 was. Looking at the standings, BMW was 50 points ahead of Renault. But Alonso being only 14 points adrift from Kubica. This alone says enough to me.
And yes, Singapore can be used as an excuse. But Japan certainly cant. That was a majestic drive together with Brazil.

That gap in constructors’ points probably points more to Nelsinho being a bit rubbish.

[Beri]

That too. But undeniable the R28 was more rubbish than its 2nd driver.

[Jops14]

Lets put it this way;
If Perez finishes 2nd in the championship, he has done better than any other driver at Red Bull who finished behind his teammate in the standings. Red Bull has never clinched a 1-2 finish in the Constructors Standings. So I dont think Perez is really doing a bad job. I like to compare it to Barrichello's 09 campaign who also sat in a championship winning car, won races and scored Pole Positions and finishing a respective 3rd in the Championship. If Perez does so too, I fail to see how Perez is doing worse. As said; I think he is doing a good job. Not the best job, thats Verstappen, but a good job none the less.

I struggle to say Perez is flopping (though I am a fa )

Without Verstappen he would be leading this championship with 7/8 wins and we’d marvel at how his race pace turns it around “prost-like”

I dont think hes flopped, hes a good driver who came up against an all time great, 2/3 wins a season i think he’d take

We’re frustrated because its back to the schumacher days

[WonderWoman61]

How decent are we actually talking here?