283 replies to this topic

[ForzaFormula]

Lewis Hamilton says he is visiting Mercedes engineers in Brackley this week to check on the W15 in the wind tunnel “to see if they are making my requested changes.”

VIA: [BBCSport]


Never underestimate drivers influence on car development.

[Gintonious]

Lewis Hamilton says he is visiting Mercedes engineers in Brackley this week to check on the W15 in the wind tunnel “to see if they are making my requested changes.”

VIA: [BBCSport]


Never underestimate drivers influence on car development.

 

Yes, a driver telling engineers how to engineer the car. I am sure the people with the college level qualifications will really value the input of a driver with no qualifications.

"Make is faster" 

[Bliman]

Yes, a driver telling engineers how to engineer the car. I am sure the people with the college level qualifications will really value the input of a driver with no qualifications.

"Make is faster"

You can turn that around too. Does an engineer know what it feels to be in the car and what a driver gives confidence and such to push the car to its limits. Input is very important. And who can give that better then a multi world champion with years and years of experience? It is weird to me when you say he has no qualifications when the drivers have a big qualification that those engineers lack. They drive the car.

[Gintonious]

You can turn that around too. Does an engineer know what it feels to be in the car and what a driver gives confidence and such to push the car to its limits. Input is very important. And who can give that better then a multi world champion with years and years of experience? It is weird to me when you say he has no qualifications when the drivers have a big qualification that those engineers lack. They drive the car.

 

And the driver has no qualifications on geometry or aerodynamics, or suspension geometry, ya know, the sciences behind actually making the car.

 

He can, and does drive the car. He hasn't a clue how to design one, at all. 

[Bliman]

And the driver has no qualifications on geometry or aerodynamics, or suspension geometry, ya know, the sciences behind actually making the car.

He can, and does drive the car. He hasn't a clue how to design one, at all.

But his feedback and/or input is crucial. He also has to convey things which an engineer doesn't think about or simply doesn't know.

[Gintonious]

But his feedback and/or input is crucial. He also has to convey things which an engineer doesn't think about or simply doesn't know.

 

Yes, his feedback to the engineers who have already made the car is crucial. His input at the design stage would be useless.

 

His job isn't to the design or give design feedback, it is to drive and give the feedback then. Him going in and saying "we should just copy RB, McLaren etc" wouldn't be feedback at all, it would just be an opinion.

 

The engineers and staff see the same things he does on other cars, they just know how to read the design constraints way more than he ever will. 

 

And this isn't a dig at him either.

[Bliman]

Yes, his feedback to the engineers who have already made the car is crucial. His input at the design stage would be useless.

His job isn't to the design or give design feedback, it is to drive and give the feedback then. Him going in and saying "we should just copy RB, McLaren etc" wouldn't be feedback at all, it would just be an opinion.

The engineers and staff see the same things he does on other cars, they just know how to read the design constraints way more than he ever will.

And this isn't a dig at him either.

The feedback before the designstage is crucial. Not only after.

[krea]

But his feedback and/or input is crucial. He also has to convey things which an engineer doesn't think about or simply doesn't know.

No, that’s not how engineering works.

In fact engineers even tell drivers how to drive. Good 20 years ago drivers were taking visibly different tlines, now the ideal line is calculated ahead of a race and everyone is taking the same line now.

Edited by krea, 26 September 2023 - 09:54.

[ForzaFormula]

Yes, a driver telling engineers how to engineer the car. I am sure the people with the college level qualifications will really value the input of a driver with no qualifications.

"Make is faster" 

Seems you know nothing about being a formula 1 driver or motorsport driver and development, even as a driver a key asset and skill is being there and assisting with the development of the car, designing is another story but a driver such as Hamilton and Max play a key part in how the development process progress's and where the car heads, it does not mean they design them but their feedback is crucial to the development team, and they play a huge part in the process, certain drivers anyhow. 

 

PS: I'm also a retired race engineer, and past driver, I've been involved in the whole process. 

Edited by ForzaFormula, 26 September 2023 - 10:30.

[Gintonious]

The feedback before the designstage is crucial. Not only after.

 

What feedback though? He can give feedback on the existing car, and how it drives. He can give nothing in terms of designs or layout though.

 

He isn't an engineer or designer, how is that hard to understand?

[Gintonious]

Seems you know nothing about being a formula 1 driver or motorsport driver and development, even as a driver a key asset and skill is being there and assisting with the development of the car, designing is another story but a driver such as Hamilton and Max play a key part in how the development process progress's and where the car heads, it does not mean they design them but their feedback is crucial to the development team, and they play a huge part in the process, certain drivers anyhow. 

 

PS: I'm also a retired race engineer, and past driver, I've been involved in the whole process. 

 

You are arguing a point I simply didn't make. Try stay on topic here.

 

He can give feedback on the car AFTER it was designed, he can say things like "I like a strong front end" for example, then the designers and engineers go to work. He doesn't come with CAD drawings or sketches, that just isn't his job at all.

 

Again, this isn't a dig, but some people seem to be taking it as one.

[Bliman]

No, that’s not how engineering works.

In fact engineers even tell drivers how to drive. Good 20 years ago drivers were taking visibly different tlines, now the ideal line is calculated ahead of a race and everyone is taking the same line now.

Everyone is taking the same line? What are you talking about? That just isn't true at all. To me it is unbelievable that some think that feedback isn't important to engineers and designers.

[Bliman]

Seems you know nothing about being a formula 1 driver or motorsport driver and development, even as a driver a key asset and skill is being there and assisting with the development of the car, designing is another story but a driver such as Hamilton and Max play a key part in how the development process progress's and where the car heads, it does not mean they design them but their feedback is crucial to the development team, and they play a huge part in the process, certain drivers anyhow.

PS: I'm also a retired race engineer, and past driver, I've been involved in the whole process.

Yeah it is baffling to me too.

[Bliman]

You are arguing a point I simply didn't make. Try stay on topic here.

He can give feedback on the car AFTER it was designed, he can say things like "I like a strong front end" for example, then the designers and engineers go to work. He doesn't come with CAD drawings or sketches, that just isn't his job at all.

Again, this isn't a dig, but some people seem to be taking it as one.

But than he gives input before the design process as well. Don't you think it will help designers and engineers before making the car what gives the driver confidence and such. It is an ongoing process for years. It is off course not that he will design the car but I never said that or also was not the point where you first commented on. It seems you underestimate how important input is.

[Gintonious]

But than he gives input before the design process as well. Don't you think it will help designers and engineers before making the car what gives the driver confidence and such. It is an ongoing process for years. It is off course not that he will design the car but I never said that or also was not the point where you first commented on. It seems you underestimate how important input is.

 

His original comment was this "I know what the problem is; it's just getting the guys to make the changes. I try to argue my point but it is not my job to design the car." 

 

What point can he argue to designers exactly? The car isn't fast enough? The sidepods are different? What?

 

His feedback is important when the car is on the track, not in the windtunnel, unless he can read the data in there.

[Bliman]

His original comment was this "I know what the problem is; it's just getting the guys to make the changes. I try to argue my point but it is not my job to design the car."

What point can he argue to designers exactly? The car isn't fast enough? The sidepods are different? What?

His feedback is important when the car is on the track, not in the windtunnel, unless he can read the data in there.

What he feels in the car when he drives it. It is very helpful if designers know what the drivers search for before designing the car or refining the concept. Lets say designers can go two routes both give the same speed in theory. For designers it can be very helpful to have feedback from the driver to know which route to take so that the driver can hit that speed on track consistently. It seems you just disregard feedback and research in designing. It isn't as simple as making the fastest car if that car can't hit that potential on track consistently. It is a constant interaction.

[ForzaFormula]

You are arguing a point I simply didn't make. Try stay on topic here.

 

He can give feedback on the car AFTER it was designed, he can say things like "I like a strong front end" for example, then the designers and engineers go to work. He doesn't come with CAD drawings or sketches, that just isn't his job at all.

 

Again, this isn't a dig, but some people seem to be taking it as one.

False, he gives important feedback during and after the developing, which influences the design and development of the car as it's being developed before, during and after, this is were you are confused. 

Edited by ForzaFormula, 26 September 2023 - 20:19.

[ForzaFormula]

His original comment was this "I know what the problem is; it's just getting the guys to make the changes. I try to argue my point but it is not my job to design the car." 

 

What point can he argue to designers exactly? The car isn't fast enough? The sidepods are different? What?

 

His feedback is important when the car is on the track, not in the windtunnel, unless he can read the data in there.

Again this is were your lack of knowledge is showing, you think a driver can only give feedback on the track, false, driver's are not just robots who turn a steering wheel, some of them are intelligent human beings with their own knowledge of car development and design, they can influence and help the development team in what may or not may help with the car development progress, not just on track but in the wind tunnel and at the factory, and also now sims, some are much better than others, and have huge influence inside the team at the factory, such as the likes of Hamilton, and Schumacher, (And what Max is also now showing) their influence and key feedback is also involved in the team factory including at the development phase, not just on the track.

Edited by ForzaFormula, 26 September 2023 - 20:24.

[Raest]

You are all saying the same thing. Driver feedback after the car has been designed is the same thing as "driver feedback before (next year's car) is designed". You 're simply on different timelines. 

[Ali_G]

Again this is were your lack of knowledge is showing, you think a driver can only give feedback on the track, false, driver's are not just robots who turn a steering wheel, some of them are intelligent human beings with their own knowledge of car development and design, they can influence and help the development team in what may or not may help with the car development progress, not just on track but in the wind tunnel and at the factory, and also now sims, some are much better than others, and have huge influence inside the team at the factory, such as the likes of Hamilton, and Schumacher, (And what Max is also now showing) their influence and key feedback is also involved in the team factory including at the development phase, not just on the track.

How on earth can a driver without any engineering or aerodynamics training give feedback in the wind tunnel.

Can you give a credible example given you said you were formerly an engineer? Do you believe that a driver can interpret data from a wind tunnel and suggest design changes?

I can see how a driver can tell the designers how he wants a car to feel and then give feedback once he drives it. I’m lost how a driver can actively aid in the design of the car itself.

Edited by Ali_G, 26 September 2023 - 23:01.

[Gintonious]

What he feels in the car when he drives it. It is very helpful if designers know what the drivers search for before designing the car or refining the concept. Lets say designers can go two routes both give the same speed in theory. For designers it can be very helpful to have feedback from the driver to know which route to take so that the driver can hit that speed on track consistently. It seems you just disregard feedback and research in designing. It isn't as simple as making the fastest car if that car can't hit that potential on track consistently. It is a constant interaction.

 

I am not disregarding anything. I am pointing out that a driver has no say in the design of the car from its genesis, they don't work on any part of the car, ever.

 

He can give feedback on how it drives AFTER it has been designed. But do you really think he would walk into a meeting, they show CAD drawings and he can chime in and say "this suspension geometry looks wrong, we should go this direction instead", really?

[Gintonious]

Again this is were your lack of knowledge is showing, you think a driver can only give feedback on the track, false, driver's are not just robots who turn a steering wheel, some of them are intelligent human beings with their own knowledge of car development and design, they can influence and help the development team in what may or not may help with the car development progress, not just on track but in the wind tunnel and at the factory, and also now sims, some are much better than others, and have huge influence inside the team at the factory, such as the likes of Hamilton, and Schumacher, (And what Max is also now showing) their influence and key feedback is also involved in the team factory including at the development phase, not just on the track.

 

In the wind tunnel...sitting beside engineers is it? My lack of knowledge knows that that part is BS. What would they do in the wind tunnel, give them pointers on what is the right direction to go with?

 

They are experts at driving the car, not designing it. They never give feedback on design direction, because they know nothing more than the engineers do.

 

They can bring up morale but that has no bearing on design, engineering or car geometry, weight balance, any of that. You are talking out your ass if you claim they do.

[Gintonious]

False, he gives important feedback during and after the developing, which influences the design and development of the car as it's being developed before, during and after, this is were you are confused. 

 

And do they draw up plans on a napkin and pass them on so they can convert them into CAD drawings?

[Gintonious]

 

I am guessing, according to Forza at least, this is what it is like. Drive walks in, slams down the knowledge, and the car goes faster, right?

[Bliman]

I am not disregarding anything. I am pointing out that a driver has no say in the design of the car from its genesis, they don't work on any part of the car, ever.

He can give feedback on how it drives AFTER it has been designed. But do you really think he would walk into a meeting, they show CAD drawings and he can chime in and say "this suspension geometry looks wrong, we should go this direction instead", really?

No he will not look at cad drawings or cfd and say this or that. But that doesn't mean that he isn't still important before the design phase. I don't understand why you don't see this. That imo is basic stuff.

Edited by Bliman, 27 September 2023 - 00:45.

[Ali_G]

No he will not look at cad drawings or cfd and say this or that. But that doesn't mean that he isn't still important before the design phase. I don't understand why you don't see this. That imo is basic stuff.

Could you explain how Hamilton will aid in the design of the car? How would Hamilton help in a wind tunnel for instance?

Hamilton and other drivers can tell designers what characteristics they are looking for in a car and then give feedback once they drive it. I’m utterly lost on how they can aid on design. They are drivers, not engineers. But please do give some examples.

[PitViperRacing]

Could you explain how Hamilton will aid in the design of the car? How would Hamilton help in a wind tunnel for instance?

Hamilton and other drivers can tell designers what characteristics they are looking for in a car and then give feedback once they drive it. I’m utterly lost on how they can aid on design. They are drivers, not engineers. But please do give some examples.

I agree with this. I'm unsure what a driver cam do other than saying "I want lots of front end grip" or "I want lots of rear end stability".

They can't really give feedback before the car is built or designed to a point where it can be tested in the sim they dont know how a car feels until it's designed and they're sitting in it/the sim.

[Skelly1927]

If drivers were integral to the fundamental design process then Hamilton wouldn't feel the need to make public statements suggesting he is being ignored. Mercedes would have implemented everything he said no fuss. He's a 7x WDC so surely they would take everything he says and implement it...? the fact they haven't means they don't value the driver that much in the design process. Hamilton's complaints are about seat position. I can understand why he'd want to be sat further back, but I think too much is being made of his public statements. I don't think he truly believes his suggestions are the difference between the RBR and Merc.

[P123]

You are all saying the same thing. Driver feedback after the car has been designed is the same thing as "driver feedback before (next year's car) is designed". You 're simply on different timelines. 

 

Yes, drivers give feedback.  A lot of wasted posts in here saying the same thing.  You'd think it had been suggested that a driver would be elbowing Newey out of the way to sketch out a future car.  I can imagine a driver will have a wishlist of what they want from a car and what they don't want.  Aside from being the job of the engineers to design something that's fast, it's also their job to interpret the data and the feedback from the drivers because there is no better demonstration of the fruits of their labour than what happens on track. 

[Ivanhoe]

Some posts really do feel like a breath of fresh air. Nice wrap up  

[Ali_G]

Yes, drivers give feedback. A lot of wasted posts in here saying the same thing. You'd think it had been suggested that a driver would be elbowing Newey out of the way to sketch out a future car. I can imagine a driver will have a wishlist of what they want from a car and what they don't want. Aside from being the job of the engineers to design something that's fast, it's also their job to interpret the data and the feedback from the drivers because there is no better demonstration of the fruits of their labour than what happens on track.

That’s exactly it. Comments in here that drivers do anymore than this is quite frankly ridiculous.

[Ali_G]

If drivers were integral to the fundamental design process then Hamilton wouldn't feel the need to make public statements suggesting he is being ignored. Mercedes would have implemented everything he said no fuss. He's a 7x WDC so surely they would take everything he says and implement it...? the fact they haven't means they don't value the driver that much in the design process. Hamilton's complaints are about seat position. I can understand why he'd want to be sat further back, but I think too much is being made of his public statements. I don't think he truly believes his suggestions are the difference between the RBR and Merc.

Assume the driving position is a balancing act. More rearward for more driver feel vs potential for more car performance with a more forward position.

[Skelly1927]

Assume the driving position is a balancing act. More rearward for more driver feel vs potential for more car performance with a more forward position.

I think what he's done, and this is speculation, noticed that RBR's seating position matches his preference, and in addition the car generates more down force. So it's a win-win for Hamilton because he can say that his preference is also on the fastest car, so design it that way please. Merc can't say it's 'wrong' because he is asking for the same as the RBR. I suspect that's the root of the 'development' talk. 

But he is only stating the obvious. 



 

Edited by Skelly1927, 27 September 2023 - 09:24.

[Ali_G]

I think what he's done, and this is speculation, noticed that RBR's seating position matches his preference, and in addition the car generates more down force. So it's a win-win for Hamilton because he can say that his preference is also on the fastest car, so design it that way please. Merc can't say it's 'wrong' because he is asking for the same as the RBR. I suspect that's the root of the 'development' talk.
But he is only stating the obvious.

I think simply looking at the RBRs cockpit position is a very simplistic argument though. Hamilton is the past has said he finds it easier to drive cars with more rearward cockpits as it gives him more feel if the rear is sliding. I think the current Merc is prob the F1 car he’s driven with the most forward facing cockpit. His McLaren era cars had him sitting way back.

[Skelly1927]

I think simply looking at the RBRs cockpit position is a very simplistic argument though. Hamilton is the past has said he finds it easier to drive cars with more rearward cockpits as it gives him more feel if the rear is sliding. I think the current Merc is prob the F1 car he’s driven with the most forward facing cockpit. His McLaren era cars had him sitting way back.

You're kinda confirmed what I said. Hamilton likes to sit further back, and the fact he can point to the RBR and say "well, it's not an aero compromise clearly because they are fastest" suggests that's the root of all talk about listening to his feedback.

[P123]

You're kinda confirmed what I said. Hamilton likes to sit further back, and the fact he can point to the RBR and say "well, it's not an aero compromise clearly because they are fastest" suggests that's the root of all talk about listening to his feedback.

 

This is a good article which summarises the relative cockpit positions of the leading cars and also the compromises and benefits to be had with the Merc philosophy vs the Red Bull philosophy.

 

https://www.autospor...aints/10455712/

[gillesfan76]

Lewis Hamilton says he is visiting Mercedes engineers in Brackley this week to check on the W15 in the wind tunnel “to see if they are making my requested changes.”

VIA: [BBCSport]


Never underestimate drivers influence on car development.

 

 

Yes, a driver telling engineers how to engineer the car. I am sure the people with the college level qualifications will really value the input of a driver with no qualifications.

"Make is faster" 

 

Surely you didn’t simply think “my requested changes” is just “make it faster”?    

 

I think if you put together the various comments by Lewis over the past 2 years, a few consistent and quite specific issues come up.

1. Cockpit position too far forward. Sitting too far forward closer to the front axle is hampering his ability to feel the rear axle.

2. The car is too much on the nose, aero balance is too far forward.

3. Balance shifts unpredictably in the corner transitions, between entry, mid corner, and exit. Aero platform not stable.

 

So I expect that he’s asked for a more rearward cockpit position (incidentally, like the Red Bull), aero balance that is more rearward (also like the Red Bull, as can be seen by how rearwards the floor venturi throat is and just forward of where the diffuser expansion starts to kick up) and an aero platform that is weighted towards stability and consistency rather than peak downforce (which is what I suspect the Red Bull has, although there’s no comments that clearly indicate that in their car).

 

In contrast to the Mercedes, which both drivers have said is very much on the nose, the Red Bull instead started off the season with understeer. Something which Max struggled with and allowed Checo to be close to and even beat Max a few times. Then Max and his engineers discovered something on the setup, various mechanical tools available on the steering wheel, and driving technique that allowed the car and he to keep the positives of the rearwards aero balance but without the limitations in understeer that he was struggling with earlier.

 

So while you, if in Hamilton’s shoes would probably simply blurt out “Make it faster”, I expect Hamilton is far more technical in his feedback of what would make it faster for him.

[Bliman]

Could you explain how Hamilton will aid in the design of the car? How would Hamilton help in a wind tunnel for instance?

Hamilton and other drivers can tell designers what characteristics they are looking for in a car and then give feedback once they drive it. I’m utterly lost on how they can aid on design. They are drivers, not engineers. But please do give some examples.

He would be of no use to help in a wind tunnel and I never said this anyway. I always said this "Hamilton and other drivers can tell designers what characteristics they are looking for in a car and then give feedback once they drive it.". That is something that I have said from the very first post. So tell me him giving feedback on the characteristics he is looking for in a car is not aiding them in designing the car before the car is designed?

He is not going to do the technical things although he certainly can chime in with some things if things are sticking out that he recognizes with his experience. For example if the team wants something to design and Hamilton remembers that they tried something similar when he was at Mclaren and give feedback.

No he will not look at CFD and say this or that.

Like seriously I don't know what people don't understand what I am saying. I am not saying that he designs the car or does the drawings, etc...

[krea]

The seat is there where it is for a reason, it was the result of the no sidepod concept, it would have turned out well Hamilton wouldn’t complain. It’s useless information.

[Gintonious]

No he will not look at cad drawings or cfd and say this or that. But that doesn't mean that he isn't still important before the design phase. I don't understand why you don't see this. That imo is basic stuff.

 

How is it important in the design phase if he is doing NOTHING for the design. That, is the basic stuff, bloody hell.

[Gintonious]

What on earth could the most successful F1 driver of all time, possibly know about making cars going fast.

 

He knows very well how to drive it fast, he couldn't design it if you doubled his salary.

[Beamer]

What on earth could the most successful F1 driver of all time, possibly know about making cars going fast.

He knows all about making it go fast. When sitting in it and turning corners. And when stepping out and requesting setup changes based on his feedback from sitting in it and turning corners. During the design phase he'll be not much better then the 'looks fast' brigade.

[Bliman]

How is it important in the design phase if he is doing NOTHING for the design. That, is the basic stuff, bloody hell.

Like seriously I am giving up. How is it not clear? What is it that you don't understand with what I am writing? How many times do I have to repeat myself?

Him giving feedback on what he likes in a car and what gives him confidence, etc... before the design phase is clearly doing something for the design because it is something that the designers and engineers can take into account. I am seriously baffled by how this is difficult to comprehend.

[Sennasational]

How is it important in the design phase if he is doing NOTHING for the design. That, is the basic stuff, bloody hell.

 

'The design phase'.

 

Look, I'm only a measly graphic designer, but as such I work with clients who don't know the first thing about graphic design. When I sit down with them and discuss a brief, are they doing the designing? Technically not, but their input is crucial to 'the design phase' and ultimately their happiness is the only test of whether or not my work is successful. The best clients are the ones that will have some idea of what sort of thing they're looking for, but defer to my professional opinion in matters of aesthetic. That doesn't mean that their input, especially initially, isn't massively important to the success of a project.

 

That actually ended up being a better analogy than I originally thought.

[ForzaFormula]

'The design phase'.

 

Look, I'm only a measly graphic designer, but as such I work with clients who don't know the first thing about graphic design. When I sit down with them and discuss a brief, are they doing the designing? Technically not, but their input is crucial to 'the design phase' and ultimately their happiness is the only test of whether or not my work is successful. The best clients are the ones that will have some idea of what sort of thing they're looking for, but defer to my professional opinion in matters of aesthetic. That doesn't mean that their input, especially initially, isn't massively important to the success of a project.

 

That actually ended up being a better analogy than I originally thought.

They don't understand the different between design and development, or have never seen what actually goes on in the factory, some drivers are deeply involved, after the initial designs, then comes development (wind tunnel, simulations etc, then drivers, help with the development, based on feedback and their own knowledge, before even entering the track, and after)
 

People are a bit daft if they think drivers just drive around the track and request setup changes, many do, but successful ones and top development drivers do allot more, nobody is saying they design the cars, I don't know why people try and come up with this to try discredit the reality, we are talking about the development of a formula 1 car, and how some drivers especially the successful ones are heavily involved in this process.

 

With the sim also much more in use these days, drivers play a huge part in the development of car designs and changes away from the track, many changes are made based on their input, especially if there are problems to be fixed, which are often done in the simulator these days, and changes done after. 

Edited by ForzaFormula, 27 September 2023 - 17:24.

[Gintonious]

Like seriously I am giving up. How is it not clear? What is it that you don't understand with what I am writing? How many times do I have to repeat myself?

Him giving feedback on what he likes in a car and what gives him confidence, etc... before the design phase is clearly doing something for the design because it is something that the designers and engineers can take into account. I am seriously baffled by how this is difficult to comprehend.

 

He could say he likes whatever he wants, that doesn't have any influence on the actual design of the car. It does nothing for the geometry or weight balance etc, nothing at all.

 

I really don't see how you can claim this will influence the design. Unless he can read the rules for designing the car and come up with drawings or plans, he does nothing to influence the design. He can influence the set-up AFTER the car has been designed. Simple as that.

[Gintonious]

They don't understand the different between design and development, or have never seen what actually goes on in the factory, some drivers are deeply involved, after the initial designs, then comes development (wind tunnel, simulations etc, then drivers, help with the development, based on feedback and their own knowledge, before even entering the track, and after)
 

People are a bit daft if they think drivers just drive around the track and request setup changes, many do, but successful ones and top development drivers do allot more, nobody is saying they design the cars, I don't know why people try and come up with this to try discredit the reality, we are talking about the development of a formula 1 car, and how some drivers especially the successful ones are heavily involved in this process.

 

With the sim also much more in use these days, drivers play a huge part in the development of car designs and changes away from the track, many changes are made based on their input, especially if there are problems to be fixed, which are often done in the simulator these days, and changes done after. 

 

The development of the car is still primarily in the hands of the engineers and designers. They work up the plans and put them on the car, not the driver. No driver ever has in modern F1.

 

No one has said either that a driver just drives around, but that is their primary job in the creation of a car, to drive, not to design...to drive.

[Bliman]

He could say he likes whatever he wants, that doesn't have any influence on the actual design of the car. It does nothing for the geometry or weight balance etc, nothing at all.

I really don't see how you can claim this will influence the design. Unless he can read the rules for designing the car and come up with drawings or plans, he does nothing to influence the design. He can influence the set-up AFTER the car has been designed. Simple as that.

I give up. Think what you want.

[ForzaFormula]

I give up. Think what you want.

It's like talking to a brick wall,.let's move on.

[milestone 11]

This is a good article which summarises the relative cockpit positions of the leading cars and also the compromises and benefits to be had with the Merc philosophy vs the Red Bull philosophy.

https://www.autospor...aints/10455712/

There's also one here in The Race which makes it appear as the Mercedes cockpit is even more forward. https://www.the-race...tons-struggles/
I just cannot trust these articles, the comparisons are never dimensioned, they're invariably photographs which are compromised in one way or the other. The Race photo clearly shows the cars at different angles. Frankly, without proper line drawings with clear dimensions, these articles are worthless.

Edited by milestone 11, 27 September 2023 - 20:47.