48 replies to this topic

[YamahaV10]

In Moto GP, they run different compounds between the front and rear. Hard on the front, soft on the back or vise versa. If this works on Moto GP bikes that have no pit stops, I really find it hard to believe that it wouldn't work on a race car. 

 

This would introduce more variety. As cars would come in for mediums on the back and softs on the front. Or hards on the back and mediums on the front.

[PlatenGlass]

Or left and right.

[Victor_RO]

Back in the day (ex. turbo era) they used to do that. I remember interviews and snippets of commentary from old race reviews and race recordings that suggested teams used mixed sets on a relatively regular basis. Even now, teams in other 4-wheeled championships do that, I've seen tire graphics in WEC races this year that clearly indicated mixed sets, and over the past decade there have been many occasions of only 2 tires changed on a pitstop.

[Zippel]

Or left and right.

 

That's how Berger won Mexico 1986. Hard tyres on the outside, soft on the inside and no stops

[AustinF1]

Absolutely they could, and I'd love to see them allowed to do so.

[IrvTheSwerve]

They’d have to dump the 2 tyre compound rule then though. Unless we go for a 3 tyre compound rule…

[Collombin]

Tyrrell briefly tried running front wheels on the rear once. Sadly not during the P34 era, this was circa 1996.

[milestone 11]

McLaren were reversing the rotation at a few races. I can't find any reference to it now.

[SophieB]

McLaren were reversing the rotation at a few races. I can't find any reference to it now.

I thought it was Mercedes but then again, neither can I find anything now, so maybe????

 

e. I am resigned to the fact I remember F1 things a bit wrong a lot of the time.

[milestone 11]

I thought it was Mercedes but then again, neither can I find anything now, so maybe????
 
e. I am resigned to the fact I remember F1 things a bit wrong a lot of the time.

Finding thing on the net nowadays appears increasingly difficult. My memory suggests maybe 10-12 years ago? But then, memory these days, seems severely compromised. I have a good excuse though.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

They’d have to dump the 2 tyre compound rule then though. Unless we go for a 3 tyre compound rule…

They would have and used the TWO compounds?

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 01 October 2023 - 09:05.

[Skelly1927]

When F1 was proper and open competition with tyres this was pretty common.

[IrvTheSwerve]

They would have and used the TWO compounds?

Exactly, which means they could potentially do a zero-stop race. One of the main reasons of the two compound rule is to have pit stops.

[registered]

I thought it was Mercedes but then again, neither can I find anything now, so maybe????

e. I am resigned to the fact I remember F1 things a bit wrong a lot of the time.

Wasn't it teams mounting left hand tires on the right hand side and vice versa? Effectively reversing rotation

[SophieB]

Wasn't it teams mounting left hand tires on the right hand side and vice versa? Effectively reversing rotation

something along these lines, but I can’t find it now.

[registered]

There is some reference here https://adamcooperf1...rstone-debacle/

[Anderis]

Exactly, which means they could potentially do a zero-stop race. One of the main reasons of the two compound rule is to have pit stops.

The rules could be reworded that they must run 2 different tyre combinations during the race.

[registered]

Or here https://www.bbc.com/...rmula1/23155008

[SophieB]

Thanks, this is what I was thinking of. 

[P123]

McLaren were reversing the rotation at a few races. I can't find any reference to it now.

 

They did that with DC at Suzuka.  Albeit it was a typical McLaren error.  He spun. 

[milestone 11]

something along these lines, but I can’t find it now.

There is some reference here https://adamcooperf1...rstone-debacle/

Looking at the British GP report and a number of the references listed, the suggestion from them is that a number of teams were doing this, though none are named. I don't recall that being the case. However, must concede that it looks likely.

Edited by milestone 11, 01 October 2023 - 09:41.

[PayasYouRace]

Exactly, which means they could potentially do a zero-stop race. One of the main reasons of the two compound rule is to have pit stops.

 And that’s a problem because? Why do we need to mandate pit stops?

[Nathan]

Finding thing on the net nowadays appears increasingly difficult. My memory suggests maybe 10-12 years ago? But then, memory these days, seems severely compromised. I have a good excuse though.

 

2013 I believe...until Silverstone when the problems of doing so came to a head.

[Victor_RO]

2013 I believe...until Silverstone when the problems of doing so came to a head.

 

Yeah, and IIRC the first clue of the teams doing this was a lucky photo snapped on Rosberg's (?) Mercedes earlier in the season at the chicane at Monaco, and the left-rear tire markings were the wrong way around when looked at more closely.

[IrvTheSwerve]

 And that’s a problem because? Why do we need to mandate pit stops?

 

I didn't say it was a problem. F1 clearly want pitstops for entertainment though.

[PayasYouRace]

I didn't say it was a problem. F1 clearly want pitstops for entertainment though.

 

Unless the tyre supplier brings everlasting tyres (Bridgestone, right?), then pit stops will be required as the strategy sweet spot of stint lengths. There's no need to mandate it by stealth by mandating different compounds be used in the race.

 

I say tell them teams to commit to a certain maximum number of tyres of whatever compound they want before the tyres are shipped to the circuit. Once a the circuit, they should be free to use the tyres in any combination they like, at any time of the weekend that they like.

[SenorSjon]

We used to have that and it worked pretty well. It was canned due to covid restrictions and never returned.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Unless the tyre supplier brings everlasting tyres (Bridgestone, right?), then pit stops will be required as the strategy sweet spot of stint lengths. There's no need to mandate it by stealth by mandating different compounds be used in the race.

 

I say tell them teams to commit to a certain maximum number of tyres of whatever compound they want before the tyres are shipped to the circuit. Once a the circuit, they should be free to use the tyres in any combination they like, at any time of the weekend that they like.

 

Yeah, it would be nice if things were opened up a bit. It would be nice to see teams try zero-stoppers, or just run whatever strategy they see fit with whatever combination of tyres they want.

 

It's pretty stale and formulaic at the moment from a strategic point of view, IMO.

[PayasYouRace]

Yeah, it would be nice if things were opened up a bit. It would be nice to see teams try zero-stoppers, or just run whatever strategy they see fit with whatever combination of tyres they want.

 

It's pretty stale and formulaic at the moment from a strategic point of view, IMO.

“Formulaic”.

 

The word that sums up most of my main gripes with the sport at the moment. Everything has to go exactly as expected to produce the same show every time. From the standard format of Q3 runs for the top teams, to the tyre regulations, to the lap 3 start replays, to overall race strategy. The list goes on. FIA and FOM don’t want unpredictability or surprise. They want everything to be predicable, by Amazon’s AI if possible.

[IrvTheSwerve]

“Formulaic”.

 

The word the sums up most of my main gripes with the sport at the moment. Everything has to go exactly as expected to produce the same show every time. From the standard format of Q3 runs for the top teams, to the tyre regulations, to the lap 3 start replays, to overall race strategy. The list goes on. FIA and FOM don’t want unpredictability or surprise. They want everything to be predicable, by Amazon’s AI if possible.

 

Yep. It feels like every race is pretty much 'copy and paste' from a strategy POV. 

 

I think the F1 games pretty much sum it up, fairly accurately; you are presented with 2 strategies and that's it. They're normally just a mirror of each other too (i.e. M->H or H->M).

 

We need more scope for teams to be clever. I think the move to closer compounds was a bad move (as most of us probably thought before it happened). Having C2,C3 and C4 are too close. We need C1, C3 and C5 - or something along those lines. There is no scope for a team to try and go long (or zero stop), to battle against a team going for a fast-paced 3 stopper on ultra-softs. There's just no opportunity for the clever boffins in F1 to try something. It may work out, they may look stupid, but either way it adds some intrigue rather than the boring 'pit window open' message from Amazon where the vast majority of teams pit within 2 or 3 laps of each other.

[Clatter]

I thought it was Mercedes but then again, neither can I find anything now, so maybe????

 

e. I am resigned to the fact I remember F1 things a bit wrong a lot of the time.

 

Can't find any references about which team(s), suspect it was multiple, if not all. The practise was banned after Silverstone 2013. https://www.skysport...everse-mounting

[Cornholio]

Unless the tyre supplier brings everlasting tyres (Bridgestone, right?), then pit stops will be required as the strategy sweet spot of stint lengths. There's no need to mandate it by stealth by mandating different compounds be used in the race.

I say tell them teams to commit to a certain maximum number of tyres of whatever compound they want before the tyres are shipped to the circuit. Once a the circuit, they should be free to use the tyres in any combination they like, at any time of the weekend that they like.

Exactly this - I'm not necessarily a fan of the artificially degrading tyres but while we have them, surely the other restrictions can go? For instance Albon's drive at Australia last year felt like it should have been rewarded more than it actually was.

Edited by Cornholio, 01 October 2023 - 15:47.

[pdac]

“Formulaic”.

 

The word that sums up most of my main gripes with the sport at the moment. Everything has to go exactly as expected to produce the same show every time. From the standard format of Q3 runs for the top teams, to the tyre regulations, to the lap 3 start replays, to overall race strategy. The list goes on. FIA and FOM don’t want unpredictability or surprise. They want everything to be predicable, by Amazon’s AI if possible.

 

Even if the FIA and/or FOM didn't intervene, it would still be formulaic. The teams all think the same. They figure out the best by running ideas through computers and each teams computers always say the same thing. So they all pretty much act the same.

[PayasYouRace]

Even if the FIA and/or FOM didn't intervene, it would still be formulaic. The teams all think the same. They figure out the best by running ideas through computers and each teams computers always say the same thing. So they all pretty much act the same.

 

That's where they should be putting in place restrictions on data that can be applied to the racing. Simple stuff like banning live telemetry at race weekends.

[AustinF1]

Unless the tyre supplier brings everlasting tyres (Bridgestone, right?), then pit stops will be required as the strategy sweet spot of stint lengths. There's no need to mandate it by stealth by mandating different compounds be used in the race.

 

I say tell them teams to commit to a certain maximum number of tyres of whatever compound they want before the tyres are shipped to the circuit. Once a the circuit, they should be free to use the tyres in any combination they like, at any time of the weekend that they like.

 

 

Yeah, it would be nice if things were opened up a bit. It would be nice to see teams try zero-stoppers, or just run whatever strategy they see fit with whatever combination of tyres they want.

 

It's pretty stale and formulaic at the moment from a strategic point of view, IMO.

 

... and  again

 

“Formulaic”.

 

The word that sums up most of my main gripes with the sport at the moment. Everything has to go exactly as expected to produce the same show every time. From the standard format of Q3 runs for the top teams, to the tyre regulations, to the lap 3 start replays, to overall race strategy. The list goes on. FIA and FOM don’t want unpredictability or surprise. They want everything to be predicable, by Amazon’s AI if possible.

 

Yep. I'd take it even a step farther, and say they want a 'predictable level of unpredicability' and a 'predicatable type of unpredictability'. I guess that makes it easier to market the product to the more casual fan or something.

 

The technological innovation and cleverness in strategy were two of the things that hooked me on F1 to begin with, and they're taking that away, bit by bit.

Edited by AustinF1, 01 October 2023 - 18:09.

[AustinF1]

Yep. It feels like every race is pretty much 'copy and paste' from a strategy POV. 

 

I think the F1 games pretty much sum it up, fairly accurately; you are presented with 2 strategies and that's it. They're normally just a mirror of each other too (i.e. M->H or H->M).

 

We need more scope for teams to be clever. I think the move to closer compounds was a bad move (as most of us probably thought before it happened). Having C2,C3 and C4 are too close. We need C1, C3 and C5 - or something along those lines. There is no scope for a team to try and go long (or zero stop), to battle against a team going for a fast-paced 3 stopper on ultra-softs. There's just no opportunity for the clever boffins in F1 to try something. It may work out, they may look stupid, but either way it adds some intrigue rather than the boring 'pit window open' message from Amazon where the vast majority of teams pit within 2 or 3 laps of each other.

 

Yes. More scope to get it all very right or very wrong. I.E. more variability. It seems to me that the cost cap is the perfect tool to give them the ability to have rules that allow a bit more freedom and allow more variability in strategies and outcomes, but they don't seem to want to put that wiggle room to use. Another example is in-season testing vs CFD vs wind tunnel time. Have one limit on all of it combined, and let the teams decide how to allocate it, to their benefit or their detriment if they get it wrong, etc, etc.

[Grippy]

<snip>

 

The technological innovation and cleverness in strategy were two of the things that hooked me on F1 to begin with, and they're taking that away, bit by bit.

Same, I used to enjoy N/A vs turbo, 6 wheel vs 4, ground effect vs non-, etc.

Drivers come and go but there are still teams from when I started watching.

I like that there is still an engineering/team championship, rather than solely a spec series for drivers.

 

I don't know what would happen if there was a fuel limit (reduced every 4 years) and the engineering opened up Keeping current cost cap, etc): probably a team would get it just right and be unbeatable.....

 

Having repaired a few engines I'm in awe of folk like Allen Millyard who builds bikes in his shed - want a bigger bike? just add cylinders.

https://www.youtube....Millyard/videos

[RacingFan10]

Big difference in MotoGP though, is they do a full race without any pitstops and they don't have mandatory tire changes.

Also I don't see why F1 teams would want to do that. They design the cars to have optimal performance with the same compound on all 4 wheels

Edited by RacingFan10, 01 October 2023 - 21:20.

[AustinF1]

Big difference in MotoGP though, is they do a full race without any pitstops and they don't have mandatory tire changes.

Also I don't see why F1 teams would want to do that. They design the cars to have optimal performance with the same compound on all 4 wheels

They optimize for the same compound because the rules require them to do so. I would imagine that they would love to optimize the car with more than one compound at some circuits. Certainly there are places where that could provide the optimum performance configuration relative to being limited to a single compound.

Edited by AustinF1, 01 October 2023 - 22:41.

[CoolBreeze]

They can't even make proper wet tyres, and we are here discussing different compounds for back and front

[AustinF1]

They can't even make proper wet tyres, and we are here discussing different compounds for back and front

Well, yes. This is all assuming F1 actually brought in a competent tire supplier or two.

[tempname11]

I'd take it even a step farther, and say they want a 'predictable level of unpredicability' and a 'predicatable type of unpredictability'. I guess that makes it easier to market the product to the more casual fan or something.

The technological innovation and cleverness in strategy were two of the things that hooked me on F1 to begin with, and they're taking that away, bit by bit.

I think if you have "unpredictable types of unpredictability", there are a lot of weird things that can happen. The races can be unpredictably boring, or unpredictably unsafe. Or a team unpredictably (in advance) dominates. Or an unpredictable loophole is found, ruining racing. Et cetera, you get the gist.

I think from an "showbiz" viewpoint, these are kind of scary, so a lot of decision-makers in F1 are, as you rightly say, trying to control and tame this "true" unpredictability, taking away some of the exciting bits as well.

As to the original topic, I think a smaller rulebook is better, and intricate rules governing how you can and can't use tires that are already allocated to you and will likely be discarded afterwards... is a bit unnecessary. I wish the rules were simpler: you have your allocation, so just use the tyres however you want, including mixing the compounds if necessary.

[Ragamuffin]

It won't end well.

 

Edited by Ragamuffin, 02 October 2023 - 06:41.

[rodlamas]

That's how Berger won Mexico 1986. Hard tyres on the outside, soft on the inside and no stops

Senna did that to win Hungary 1991.

[7MGTEsup]

I thought it was Mercedes but then again, neither can I find anything now, so maybe????

 

e. I am resigned to the fact I remember F1 things a bit wrong a lot of the time.

 

I definitely remember something along these lines in 2013 (Merc running the rear tyres on the wrong sides), it was then banned and Red bull went on a 9 race winning streak. So we all share the same delusion.

[Risil]

It won't end well.

 

 

Look at the eyebrows on the driver!!!

[CoolBreeze]

Well, yes. This is all assuming F1 actually brought in a competent tire supplier or two.

 

We definitely need Michelin back. They will bring proper tyres, with proper operating window, and drivers won't be afraid of actually racing without heating up the tyres.

[Beri]

Drift tires on the rear and Hypersofts on the front. Could be entertaining..

[Burai]

Tyrrell briefly tried running front wheels on the rear once. Sadly not during the P34 era, this was circa 1996.

 

German GP practice in 1996: