Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

1998 Mclaren MP4/13 Hybrid Power


  • Please log in to reply
54 replies to this topic

#1 rodlamas

rodlamas
  • Member

  • 12,127 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 01 October 2023 - 13:26

On a recent video on F1 youtube, Sam Collins talks about Adrian Newey's success and the evolution of his career.

 

 

At one point, if you start wtaching at minute 8:08, Collins says that the MP4-13 was the first car to have hybrid power. I have searched a lot this around the web, and I think maybe a decade ago I read that it had some kind of hydraulic KERS.

 

Check this video from Mika, Suzuka 1998. Look at his left thumb exiting multiple corners just like the usage of an overtake button or a KERS button or whatever.

 

 

Does anyone have any info on that?

 

 



Advertisement

#2 Grippy

Grippy
  • Member

  • 590 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 01 October 2023 - 13:39

<snip>

 

At one point, if you start wtaching at minute 8:08, Collins says that the MP4-13 was the first car to have hybrid power. I have searched a lot this around the web, and I think maybe a decade ago I read that it had some kind of hydraulic KERS.

 

Check this video from Mika, Suzuka 1998. Look at his left thumb exiting multiple corners just like the usage of an overtake button or a KERS button or whatever.

 

 

Does anyone have any info on that?

https://www.f1techni.../mclaren-mp4-13

 

quote;

..........At the same time, it also became clear that McLaren was using brake energy to generate electrical power that is stored in batteries. This electricity is then used to run auxiliary pumps on the engine to push out an additional 30 to 40 hp for a limited period......



#3 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 7,428 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 01 October 2023 - 13:40

I remember rumours at the time and Newey saying something along the lines of ‘Ferrari told Mosley to ban it, so we had to give up on the idea.’

#4 Grippy

Grippy
  • Member

  • 590 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 01 October 2023 - 13:42

I remember rumours at the time and Newey saying something along the lines of ‘Ferrari told Mosley to ban it, so we had to give up on the idea.’

That might have been the independant wheel braking - lots of innovation on that car.



#5 IrvTheSwerve

IrvTheSwerve
  • Member

  • 6,440 posts
  • Joined: July 15

Posted 01 October 2023 - 14:12

That might have been the independant wheel braking - lots of innovation on that car.

 

Indeed, they were using the 3rd pedal in 1997 too though.



#6 Oho

Oho
  • Member

  • 12,224 posts
  • Joined: November 98

Posted 01 October 2023 - 14:46

That might have been the independant wheel braking - lots of innovation on that car.

 

Manual  asymmetric brake bias adjustment for rear axle was within the rules at the time and thats what McLaren had: a dial or a knob to choose bias and separate pedal probably for rear brakes only, then Ferrari came up with the four wheel steering argument but that was well bullshit. Four wheel steering rules at the time pretty much only outlawed steering by turning the wheels. If the assymetric distribution of braking force was actually deemed four wheel steering slip limitted differentials should have outlawed on exacly the same argument, uneven distribution of force to steer the car. The system wasnt banned for rule violation as much as for the sake of the show.


Edited by Oho, 01 October 2023 - 17:29.


#7 rodlamas

rodlamas
  • Member

  • 12,127 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 01 October 2023 - 15:38

Manual aymmetric brake bias adjustment for rear axle was within the rules at the time and thats what McLaren had: a dial or a knob to choose bias and separate pedal probably for rear brakes only, then Ferrari came up with the four wheel steering argument but that was well bullshit. Four wheel steering rules at the time pretty much only outlawed steering by turning the wheels. If the assymetric distribution of braking force was actually deemed four wheel steering slip limitted differentials should have outlawed on exacly the same argument, uneven distribution of force to steer the car. The system wasnt banned for rule violation as much as for the sake of the show.


That was a time that once Ferrari was losing, Moseley would open FIAs legs.

#8 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 51,579 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 01 October 2023 - 16:00

Manual  aymmetric brake bias adjustment for rear axle was within the rules at the time and thats what McLaren had: a dial or a knob to choose bias and separate pedal probably for rear brakes only, then Ferrari came up with the four wheel steering argument but that was well bullshit. Four wheel steering rules at the time pretty much only outlawed steering by turning the wheels. If the assymetric distribution of braking force was actually deemed four wheel steering slip limitted differentials should have outlawed on exacly the same argument, uneven distribution of force to steer the car. The system wasnt banned for rule violation as much as for the sake of the show.

 

And the ban had no effect on the show. The McLarens were just as quick without it.



#9 pacificquay

pacificquay
  • Member

  • 7,209 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 01 October 2023 - 16:18

My favourite car, driven by my favourite driver.

 

Can scarcely believe it was 25 years ago.

 

A lot of people look back at that season and say Ferrari did well to catch up, but I think the reality is more that Goodyear made a massive gain on Bridgestone during the season.



#10 New Britain

New Britain
  • Member

  • 9,256 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 01 October 2023 - 17:21

And the ban had no effect on the show. The McLarens were just as quick without it.

Is that right? IIRC Hakkinen said that, when the engineers told him about it prior to his trying it, he was sceptical, but when he tried it he was very impressed and it definitely lowered his lap-times.



#11 FirstnameLastname

FirstnameLastname
  • Member

  • 9,640 posts
  • Joined: April 18

Posted 01 October 2023 - 17:29

They lapped the entire field at the first race did they not?

#12 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 51,579 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 01 October 2023 - 17:31

Is that right? IIRC Hakkinen said that, when the engineers told him about it prior to his trying it, he was sceptical, but when he tried it he was very impressed and it definitely lowered his lap-times.

 

It was banned between Melbourne and Interlagos, and the results speak for themselves.

 

They lapped the entire field at the first race did they not?

 

And they nearly did it at the second.



#13 BertoC

BertoC
  • Member

  • 2,030 posts
  • Joined: August 17

Posted 01 October 2023 - 18:21

They lapped the entire field at the first race did they not?

Yeah, it was glorious. <3

#14 New Britain

New Britain
  • Member

  • 9,256 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 01 October 2023 - 21:22

It was banned between Melbourne and Interlagos, and the results speak for themselves.

 

 

And they nearly did it at the second.

 

From Steve Nichols:

 

“Mika was using the paddle clutch so we just went back to an extra pedal – still only three, but throttle, brake and fiddle-brake. He was very open-minded so he went out and tried it, and on his first run he went half a second a lap faster, which was pretty enormous. 

“It did a fantastic job. I set it up on purpose with the pressure in the master cylinder so that he had to push quite hard on it, because I didn’t want him to tap the thing and it suddenly spin. He’d use the normal brake to slow the car down enough and then use the fiddle brake just to balance the car. You could push with a little more or less pressure.

“He thought it was great."

 

https://www.mclaren....-pedal-3153421/

 

 

Not really valid to compare race after with race before, as there would have been numerous other variables that affected a comparison.



#15 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 51,579 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 01 October 2023 - 21:29

From Steve Nichols:

 

“Mika was using the paddle clutch so we just went back to an extra pedal – still only three, but throttle, brake and fiddle-brake. He was very open-minded so he went out and tried it, and on his first run he went half a second a lap faster, which was pretty enormous. 

“It did a fantastic job. I set it up on purpose with the pressure in the master cylinder so that he had to push quite hard on it, because I didn’t want him to tap the thing and it suddenly spin. He’d use the normal brake to slow the car down enough and then use the fiddle brake just to balance the car. You could push with a little more or less pressure.

“He thought it was great."

 

https://www.mclaren....-pedal-3153421/

 

 

Not really valid to compare race after with race before, as there would have been numerous other variables that affected a comparison.

 

Those are comments from the first test with the system in 1997. Sorry, how is it not valid to compare the last race with the system to the following race without it?



#16 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 32,623 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 01 October 2023 - 21:49

On a recent video on F1 youtube, Sam Collins talks about Adrian Newey's success and the evolution of his career.
 

 
At one point, if you start wtaching at minute 8:08, Collins says that the MP4-13 was the first car to have hybrid power. I have searched a lot this around the web, and I think maybe a decade ago I read that it had some kind of hydraulic KERS.
 
Check this video from Mika, Suzuka 1998. Look at his left thumb exiting multiple corners just like the usage of an overtake button or a KERS button or whatever.
 

 
Does anyone have any info on that?

Yeah, that's got to be a power boost button. Fascinating. I have no memories of it being discussed at the time?



#17 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 51,579 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 01 October 2023 - 21:51

Yeah, that's got to be a power boost button. Fascinating. I have no memories of it being discussed at the time?

 

Not at the time. But I've definitely heard about this before.



#18 FirstnameLastname

FirstnameLastname
  • Member

  • 9,640 posts
  • Joined: April 18

Posted 01 October 2023 - 21:55

They look fast as **** don’t they. Imagine if they’d had the slick tyres too.

Loved that era of F1

*wistfully takes off rose tinted specs and carefully places them down*

#19 Ali_G

Ali_G
  • Member

  • 34,579 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 01 October 2023 - 22:02

They look fast as **** don’t they. Imagine if they’d had the slick tyres too.

Loved that era of F1

*wistfully takes off rose tinted specs and carefully places them down*



I thought the narrow track cars were hideous. I remember we were promised unstable cars that would improve the show. We got anything but.

Advertisement

#20 Ali_G

Ali_G
  • Member

  • 34,579 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 01 October 2023 - 22:03

Not at the time. But I've definitely heard about this before.


When did this all come out as I’ve never heard about this either. Did the FIA bring out a TD to ban hybrid systems mid season?

#21 New Britain

New Britain
  • Member

  • 9,256 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 01 October 2023 - 22:27

Those are comments from the first test with the system in 1997. Sorry, how is it not valid to compare the last race with the system to the following race without it?

Because if the criterion is how fast the car was relative to other cars from one race to the next, there are numerous other factors that will influence the relative speed of the competition - in-season development, tyre war, getting the set-up right or wrong. Cf: the last two 2023 GPs, when Red Bull struggled in Singapore and then dominated in Japan.



#22 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 7,428 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 01 October 2023 - 22:31

When did this all come out as I’ve never heard about this either. Did the FIA bring out a TD to ban hybrid systems mid season?

I remember online chat from 1999-2000, but it was quite vague as no one outside McLaren knew what they were doing. I remember though that it was said the FIA nuked it privately to the team, not saying anything publicly.

#23 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 13,409 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 02 October 2023 - 08:44

I thought the narrow track cars were hideous. I remember we were promised unstable cars that would improve the show. We got anything but.

 

 

That was because Newey figured out that the instability could partly be overcome by increasing the wheel base: the start of the trend that eventually lead to the close to 6 meter length 2021 cars.

We are still dealing with the consequences of that


Edited by Henri Greuter, 02 October 2023 - 08:44.


#24 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 51,579 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 02 October 2023 - 09:34

That was because Newey figured out that the instability could partly be overcome by increasing the wheel base: the start of the trend that eventually lead to the close to 6 meter length 2021 cars.
We are still dealing with the consequences of that


He explains it quite well in his book. It’s actually not part of this trend, because when we went back to wider cars in 2017 the equivalent move would have been to shorten the wheelbase again.

There are other reasons for the increase in length since then.

#25 Ali_G

Ali_G
  • Member

  • 34,579 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 02 October 2023 - 09:36

That was because Newey figured out that the instability could partly be overcome by increasing the wheel base: the start of the trend that eventually lead to the close to 6 meter length 2021 cars.
We are still dealing with the consequences of that


In retrospect, I suspect that the width : length aspect ratio was all important. Longer, slimmer cars being more stable than short, wide cars. I think claims that the cars would become unstable due to the reduced track may have been wise if the mark.

The grooved tyres were also supposed to drive this. However, the tyre war had grip levels back to where they were with slicks in little time.

#26 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 66,901 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 02 October 2023 - 10:04

I remember some chat about the McLaren system, possibly from Joe Saward, when they were talking about bringing KERS in, around 2007-8. Not as famous as the third brake pedal, but in hindsight obviously regenerative energy systems look like a big deal. There are so many tricks and unusual things going on in every F1 car, we tend to latch onto the stuff we readily understand (pedals).

#27 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 13,409 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 02 October 2023 - 10:47

In retrospect, I suspect that the width : length aspect ratio was all important. Longer, slimmer cars being more stable than short, wide cars. I think claims that the cars would become unstable due to the reduced track may have been wise if the mark.

The grooved tyres were also supposed to drive this. However, the tyre war had grip levels back to where they were with slicks in little time.

 

 

The longer wheelbase definitely helped making a car more stable, a gain that could be gained (and retained) no matter the width of the car. perhaps being less efficient when reaching certain amounts of lengths and/or width : length aspect ratios.

And thus no reason to dump that advantage if there were no rules forcing wheelbase and/or length reduction.. 

Agree on the tire related comments.



#28 Peeko

Peeko
  • Member

  • 3,902 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 02 October 2023 - 13:25

Makes Schumacher's 98 season even more impressive.



#29 pacificquay

pacificquay
  • Member

  • 7,209 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 02 October 2023 - 14:21

Makes Schumacher's 98 season even more impressive.

 

It was impressive, but aided by huge improvements from Goodyear over the season



#30 Boing Ball

Boing Ball
  • Member

  • 414 posts
  • Joined: July 00

Posted 02 October 2023 - 14:23

He explains it quite well in his book. It’s actually not part of this trend, because when we went back to wider cars in 2017 the equivalent move would have been to shorten the wheelbase again.

There are other reasons for the increase in length since then.

Henri probably meant that they realized in 1998 that a longer car is beneficial and have ever since been stretching them as much as the width allows. 



#31 Boing Ball

Boing Ball
  • Member

  • 414 posts
  • Joined: July 00

Posted 02 October 2023 - 14:32

I remember online chat from 1999-2000, but it was quite vague as no one outside McLaren knew what they were doing. I remember though that it was said the FIA nuked it privately to the team, not saying anything publicly.

I remember that McLaren's (pseudo?) KERS was banned before it was raced. The reason for banning was that rules allowed only a single engine/motor or something like that. I don't remember the banning being a huge secret. In fact, I think I read it from AtlasF1.



#32 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 51,579 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 02 October 2023 - 15:02

Henri probably meant that they realized in 1998 that a longer car is beneficial and have ever since been stretching them as much as the width allows.


I’ll have to find it, but Adrian explained how it had to do with weight transfer at the corners of the car.

#33 rodlamas

rodlamas
  • Member

  • 12,127 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 02 October 2023 - 15:57

Less than a page, the hybrid stuff has already been forgotten and we are talking about wheelbases, car widths and extra brake pedals.



#34 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 51,579 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 02 October 2023 - 16:29

I’m quite happy to help steer the topic back on track but what new information do we have about the system? It still appears shrouded in secrecy and there’s not a lot to go on.



#35 Dan333SP

Dan333SP
  • Member

  • 5,020 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 02 October 2023 - 16:43

To the original point of the post, I'm not seeing Hakkinen use his left thumb on any sort of button in that video. It does look like he moves it around to rest his hand in different positions during the lap, but on the main straight where he has it sitting on the top of the wheel he just moves it into the notch for the thumb, I don't see him holding down a button anywhere on the lap. If the posts above are correct, if Mclaren did indeed have a KERS in that car, it was banned without being raced. I think I also recall in Newey's book that the 3rd pedal for brakes could only be set up for one side of the chassis, so they'd have to figure out where it'd have the most benefit depending on the circuit and it then would only help in either right or left hand bends but not both. 

 

Looking at photos of the wheel itself, there are 2 toggle switches and 2 buttons near his left thumb. The PLS button is the pit lane speed limiter, and the two toggles are probably engine map settings for fuel savings or wet vs dry. Anyone have any guesses on what the big red button is? Radio?

 

49709516741_3e59dd8f38_b.jpg



#36 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 13,409 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 02 October 2023 - 17:47

Henri probably meant that they realized in 1998 that a longer car is beneficial and have ever since been stretching them as much as the width allows. 

In fact, I have first hand evidence of such knowledge to be used some 50 years earlier.

 

In a letter written by Merrill `Doc` Williams to a friend of him, he wrote about the Front Drive Novi that he had driven at Indianapolis in 1947 and how the engineers of that car had wanted it to have the long wheelbase it had. 106 Inch while 96 was the minimum. The intention was to have a stable car in a straight line, as smooth as possible over the front straigth, at that time still all-brick. That did indeed work as predicted but the car wasn't as easy going through the corners as smaller wheelbased cars were. But to be honest, I think that the latter was also the result of the FWD Novi being a terminally understeered pig in the corners due to its front drive and to make things worse, it also lacked a differential.

But straight line stability was still very good as long as the car did not suffer from wheel spin due to its tremendous torque and power with the majority of the weight of the car behind behind the driven wheels, thus not enhancing the application of all that brutal force.

 

But I'll save all of you from further details now, there has been enough comments about the diversion of the original topic. But I felt I owed you this explanation so that's why I post this diversion after all.

Back to MaccaInfo again.


Edited by Henri Greuter, 02 October 2023 - 17:49.


#37 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 32,623 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 03 October 2023 - 14:57

To the original point of the post, I'm not seeing Hakkinen use his left thumb on any sort of button in that video. It does look like he moves it around to rest his hand in different positions during the lap, but on the main straight where he has it sitting on the top of the wheel he just moves it into the notch for the thumb, I don't see him holding down a button anywhere on the lap. If the posts above are correct, if Mclaren did indeed have a KERS in that car, it was banned without being raced. I think I also recall in Newey's book that the 3rd pedal for brakes could only be set up for one side of the chassis, so they'd have to figure out where it'd have the most benefit depending on the circuit and it then would only help in either right or left hand bends but not both. 
 
Looking at photos of the wheel itself, there are 2 toggle switches and 2 buttons near his left thumb. The PLS button is the pit lane speed limiter, and the two toggles are probably engine map settings for fuel savings or wet vs dry. Anyone have any guesses on what the big red button is? Radio?
 
49709516741_3e59dd8f38_b.jpg

I don't think it was the radio button because Häkkinen pressed the button at almost every corner on his pole laps at Spa, Hockenheim and Barcelona.

Some things I've noticed after watching more onboard videos:

  • The red button appeared mid-1997. At the Spanish GP in May the buttons looked different and Häkkinen didn't do anything in particular with his left thumb.
  • At the German GP in July 1997 he had started doing the left thumb trick. (I couldn't find any footage from Montreal, Magny-Cours or Silverstone.)
  • To me it looks like the thumb was doing two things: first he reached for and pressed (and held?) the red button – then he always moved the thumb to the left of the red button and held it in a vertical position where it usually stayed for several seconds, almost as if there was a hidden button to the left of the red button.
  • He only did this thumb trick at slow and mid-speed corners, never when he was halfway down a straight.
  • Sometimes he started pressing the red button at corner exits (La Source), sometimes under braking for a corner (Degner 2).
  • In free practice, he stopped doing the thumb trick as soon as he aborted a flying lap. And he started again when he started pushing.
  • What about Coulthard? In 1998, he single-pressed a yellow button with his right thumb before and after a corner. Sometimes he also pressed (and held?) a red button above the yellow button: yellow–red–yellow.
  • In 1999, Häkkinen's red button seems to have disappeared and he didn't do anything in particular with his left thumb.

So what was it? :)



#38 Dan333SP

Dan333SP
  • Member

  • 5,020 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 03 October 2023 - 15:34

Sounds like someone needs to message Glenn Freeman and have them ask someone at Mclaren for the BBV10 podcast, I'd genuinely love to know what they were up to with this. 



#39 Peter3hg

Peter3hg
  • Member

  • 321 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 October 2023 - 17:58

This is an article from 1998 with some more details/speculation and the discussions around the device:

https://www.grandpri...tle-secret.html

 

 

There was much speculation in the paddock as to what it was that the spy was trying to photograph with one popular theory being that McLaren is using a system of generating power with the brakes which is then used to drive small electric motors which run the auxiliary pumps on the Mercedes-Benz engine. Normally the oil and water pumps are run by chaindrive or gears from the engine and normally this consumes around 30 horsepower.

 

The amount of power which can be generated by the car would not, however, be sufficient to run the pumps for an entire race and so the rumors suggest that McLaren has developed a system in which the pumps are run by the engine at certain points on the circuit and by the electric pumps at other times which means that on some parts of the circuit the drivers can switch on an extra 30 horsepower whenever they need to overtake.

 

Several teams argue that such a system would be illegal although there is no obvious regulation which bans power regeneration. Article 1.3 of the F1 Technical Regulations defines a car as being "a locomotive device". The teams argue that "a locomotive device" is a singular machine and that by adding a small electric motor a car is not legal as it has two locomotive devices. According to some engineers the concept of power regeneration was discussed at a meeting of the FIA Technical Working Group and it was agreed that it would not be allowed but there is no actual regulation which bans it. It should perhaps be remembered that because of the ongoing dispute about the Concorde Agreement McLaren does not actually have a voice on the Technical Working Group and so, in theory, is not bound by any agreements made by that body.

 

We understand that teams are working flat out to devise similar systems but it will be some months before they are ready to be fitted to the cars and in the time it takes the other teams to catch up McLaren will be able to build a lead in the World Championship. "We have seen this sort of thing before," commented Frank Williams after the race in Australia. "I think they'll only be this strong for the first half of the season."



Advertisement

#40 Dan333SP

Dan333SP
  • Member

  • 5,020 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 03 October 2023 - 18:02

Man, I absolutely love innovations like that. It doesn't actually increase the engine power, it just allows otherwise wasted braking energy to run pumps that would otherwise siphon power away from the output at the driveshaft. Absolutely brilliant. I guess most cars were built underweight at that point so in theory the only penalty would be a little bit of extra space for packaging and maybe a slightly higher CoG. 



#41 milestone 11

milestone 11
  • Member

  • 18,417 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 03 October 2023 - 19:09

I remember rumours at the time and Newey saying something along the lines of ‘Ferrari told Mosley to ban it, so we had to give up on the idea.’

The article that Grippy linked explains it

It emerged that the Italian team was thinking that McLaren was using a mechanical system that links the steering with the brakes. Ferrari argued that the system amounts to four-wheel steering which is banned under Article 10.4.1 of the F1 technical regulations. Though the FIA had given approval to McLaren's system during a pre-season discussion, the stewards agreed with Ferrari. McLaren decided to withdraw the system rather than muddy the water in what it felt would be a Championship-winning year. This was a typically shrewd move, and even without the system the drivers managed another McLaren 1-2 leaving Ferrari's Michael Schumacher almost a lap behind.

At the same time, it also became clear that McLaren was using brake energy to generate electrical power that is stored in batteries. This electricity is then used to run auxiliary pumps on the engine to push out an additional 30 to 40 hp for a limited period.



#42 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 17,624 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 03 October 2023 - 19:22

I don't think it was the radio button because Häkkinen pressed the button at almost every corner on his pole laps at Spa, Hockenheim and Barcelona.

Some things I've noticed after watching more onboard videos:

  • The red button appeared mid-1997. At the Spanish GP in May the buttons looked different and Häkkinen didn't do anything in particular with his left thumb.
  • At the German GP in July 1997 he had started doing the left thumb trick. (I couldn't find any footage from Montreal, Magny-Cours or Silverstone.)
  • To me it looks like the thumb was doing two things: first he reached for and pressed (and held?) the red button – then he always moved the thumb to the left of the red button and held it in a vertical position where it usually stayed for several seconds, almost as if there was a hidden button to the left of the red button.
  • He only did this thumb trick at slow and mid-speed corners, never when he was halfway down a straight.
  • Sometimes he started pressing the red button at corner exits (La Source), sometimes under braking for a corner (Degner 2).
  • In free practice, he stopped doing the thumb trick as soon as he aborted a flying lap. And he started again when he started pushing.
  • What about Coulthard? In 1998, he single-pressed a yellow button with his right thumb before and after a corner. Sometimes he also pressed (and held?) a red button above the yellow button: yellow–red–yellow.
  • In 1999, Häkkinen's red button seems to have disappeared and he didn't do anything in particular with his left thumb.

So what was it? :)

 

https://youtu.be/6gb...WU7NRsUNi&t=137

 

At 2:10 here, Coulthard talks about the brake system, and toggle on the wheel.



#43 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 17,624 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 03 October 2023 - 19:28

https://youtu.be/6gb...WU7NRsUNi&t=137
 
At 2:10 here, Coulthard talks about the brake system, and toggle on the wheel.

 
Ïn addition:
https://www.grandpri...-in-brazil.html
 
Important point:

In the days before the meeting began the FIA formalized a ban on regenerative electrical motors, thus closing a loophole which McLaren was rumored to have exploited in Australia with the electrical motors running the auxiliary pumps of the engine at certain places on each lap, giving the drivers what amounted to a boost button.
THE Formula 1 teams indulged in a huge political fight at Interlagos, centered on whether or not the directional braking systems being used by McLaren, Williams and Jordan were legal. In the days before the meeting began the FIA formalized a ban on regenerative electrical motors, thus closing a loophole which McLaren was rumored to have exploited in Australia with the electrical motors running the auxiliary pumps of the engine at certain places on each lap, giving the drivers what amounted to a boost button.

With this issue out of the way the Ferrari protests centered on the braking system which Ferrari claimed were illegal because they were in effect four-wheel-steering, traction-control and broke the rule which states that a braking system must operate at least two wheels at the same time.


So, it seems like the boost was banned between Australia and Brazil as well?

#44 rodlamas

rodlamas
  • Member

  • 12,127 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 03 October 2023 - 19:36

I don't think it was the radio button because Häkkinen pressed the button at almost every corner on his pole laps at Spa, Hockenheim and Barcelona.

Some things I've noticed after watching more onboard videos:

  • The red button appeared mid-1997. At the Spanish GP in May the buttons looked different and Häkkinen didn't do anything in particular with his left thumb.
  • At the German GP in July 1997 he had started doing the left thumb trick. (I couldn't find any footage from Montreal, Magny-Cours or Silverstone.)
  • To me it looks like the thumb was doing two things: first he reached for and pressed (and held?) the red button – then he always moved the thumb to the left of the red button and held it in a vertical position where it usually stayed for several seconds, almost as if there was a hidden button to the left of the red button.
  • He only did this thumb trick at slow and mid-speed corners, never when he was halfway down a straight.
  • Sometimes he started pressing the red button at corner exits (La Source), sometimes under braking for a corner (Degner 2).
  • In free practice, he stopped doing the thumb trick as soon as he aborted a flying lap. And he started again when he started pushing.
  • What about Coulthard? In 1998, he single-pressed a yellow button with his right thumb before and after a corner. Sometimes he also pressed (and held?) a red button above the yellow button: yellow–red–yellow.
  • In 1999, Häkkinen's red button seems to have disappeared and he didn't do anything in particular with his left thumb.

So what was it? :)

The toggles on the wheel are one for the radio and one for the launch map. They are still like this today on the MCL60 wheel.



#45 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 17,624 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 03 October 2023 - 19:36

https://youtu.be/6gb...WU7NRsUNi&t=137
 
At 2:10 here, Coulthard talks about the brake system, and toggle on the wheel.

 
 

Ïn addition:
https://www.grandpri...-in-brazil.html
 
Important point:

So, it seems like the boost was banned between Australia and Brazil as well?


I should start to use "edit" I guess...

No buttons being pressed by Häkkinen here:


#46 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 17,624 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 03 October 2023 - 19:36

The toggles on the wheel are one for the radio and one for the launch map. They are still like this today on the MCL60 wheel.


Does look weird to use the radio as much as he does though?

I mean, why use the radio for a short short time after T1, and then move the hand away? Then use the same button after T2?


launch map? Like a nonTC-TC?

Edited by Myrvold, 03 October 2023 - 19:38.


#47 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 32,623 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 03 October 2023 - 21:02

https://youtu.be/6gb...WU7NRsUNi&t=137
 
At 2:10 here, Coulthard talks about the brake system, and toggle on the wheel.

So the button was probably related to the brake system – Coulthard says they ran the system half of 1997 and all of 1998.

Actually, I'm beginning to think that Häkkinen activated this additional brake with the red button rather than the third pedal. Maybe he found that easier? Maybe he could use both.

Look at his left thumb on his pole lap at Spa in 1998:



He presses the button as he gets on the power out of every slow and medium-speed corner. And the thumb stays on/over the button through the entire Bus Stop Chicane. But at Pouhon he doesn't touch it – the corners are too fast.

(If indeed there was a hidden button to the left of Häkkine's red button, maybe that's the left/right toggle Coulthard talked about?)



#48 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 32,623 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 03 October 2023 - 21:07

I wish I could find more footage of Coulthard. His onboard camera was often on the wrong side of the helmet.



#49 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 17,624 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 04 October 2023 - 14:24

So the button was probably related to the brake system – Coulthard says they ran the system half of 1997 and all of 1998.

Actually, I'm beginning to think that Häkkinen activated this additional brake with the red button rather than the third pedal. Maybe he found that easier? Maybe he could use both.

Look at his left thumb on his pole lap at Spa in 1998:



He presses the button as he gets on the power out of every slow and medium-speed corner. And the thumb stays on/over the button through the entire Bus Stop Chicane. But at Pouhon he doesn't touch it – the corners are too fast.

(If indeed there was a hidden button to the left of Häkkine's red button, maybe that's the left/right toggle Coulthard talked about?)

 

That doesn't align with the fact that the brake system removed after Australia though?

 

Which is why I find this so incredibly interesting. It must've done something, I refuse to believe it is a radio-button. But what was it, and why does it not fit with any of the known stories.



#50 Boing Ball

Boing Ball
  • Member

  • 414 posts
  • Joined: July 00

Posted 04 October 2023 - 15:30

I remember a similar debate about the button on McLaren's steering wheel from 1998. I think there was even a thread on AtlasF1 about the mini-scandal with the title "What is that button for?" or something in that order.