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Qatar Grand Prix 2023 - Race Thread


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#1 PayasYouRace

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 14:39

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It's the Qatar Grand Prix. The Sprint Race yesterday already brought us two causes for celebration, with Oscar Piastri getting his first race* win in Formula 1 and Max Verstappen putting himself mathematically secure of his third World Drivers' Championship.

 

Now under the lights of the desert, which is hardly unique in F1 anymore, we race for honour, glory and the minor championship places on a super fast circuit. What comes with a super fast circuit with breadknife inspired kerbs? Tyre problems. Pirelli are Pirelliing hard this weekend so, for safety, a maximum 18 lap stint length has been mandated. Those who watched CART twenty years ago will know what a blow for strategy this will make, but the alternative is an Indy 2005 not-race, and with a single tyre supplier, we have the opportunity to at least see a Grand Prix.

 

FIA mandates maximum 18-lap stints in F1 Qatar GP due to tyre trouble (autosport.com)

 

ANF explained the tyre ruling in the build up thread:

 

 

Due to the frequency of Safety Car interventions in yesterday’s Sprint, the tyre data available for analysis by Pirelli was insufficient to add to that already undertaken following previous track sessions.

In some cases, tyres that were analysed from the Sprint did show the initial onset of the separation in the sidewall between the topping compound and the carcass cords of the tyres.

As was the case in Free Practice 1, this issue has likely been caused by the high-frequency interference between the tyre sidewall and the 50mm ‘pyramid’ kerbs used extensively at this circuit, aggravated by the propensity to ride those kerbs.

As a consequence, it has been decided by the FIA and Pirelli and after consultation with the teams on safety grounds, the following measures will be implemented for today’s Qatar Grand Prix:

  • A mandatory limit of 18 laps of total tyre life per set will be imposed.
  • The life of already used tyres will be taken into consideration.
  • The FIA and Pirelli will communicate to the teams the remaining available laps for each set of used tyres at their disposal for the race and the criteria used to calculate that number.
  • There is no direct mandate for at least three tyre-change pitstops during the race, however this will be a consequence of the above guidelines should the race run its entire race distance.
  • Any car deemed to have exceeded the tyre life lap limit will be reported to the Stewards as being run in an unsafe condition.
  • This information will be formally communicated to the teams in the Race Directors’ notes and further updates issued as required.

https://www.fia.com/...and-prix-update

 

 

"Laps to the grid, formation laps and laps following the chequered flag for the Sprint and Race will not be counted," according to the updated Pirelli Preview document that was released moments ago:

Maximum number of laps permitted for the race on each single set including all tyres history: 18laps.
Laps to the grid, formation laps and laps following the chequered flag for the Sprint and Race will not be counted. For the used sets effective number of laps considered from previous sessions will be the total amount, reduced by 2laps. For the sake of clarity a document with remaining laps available for each set will be distributed to the teams.
https://www.fia.com/... Preview V2.pdf

 

Enjoy the race and try to keep things civil. We're here to enjoy ourselves.

 

 

*Not Grand Prix.



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#2 ANF

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 14:43

From the updated event notes:

24) Tyre usage during the race
As per the Pirelli 23R18QAT Preview – Issue B, the following must be respected:

  • Max. 18 laps per set (this does not include Reconnaissance laps, Formation Lap(s) and the Inlap after the chequered flag.
  • Every infringement of the max. number of laps will be reported to the stewards and will be considered as driving in unsafe conditions.

25) Remaining Laps on used Tires

 

23-R18-QATremaininglapsavailable.png



#3 LiJu914

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 14:45

 

balmybaldwin, on 08 Oct 2023 - 16:39, said:

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So what´s the consequence of running a car in unsafe conditions again?

I guess, normally you get shown a black and orange flag - but what happens, if you ignore it (might be appealing in the closing stages of the race...)?

A DQ or a time penalty or what?

 you ignore the meatball, the next lap you get black flagged normally

 

 

Doesn´t that mean, you can stretch your mandatory 18-lap (max) stint into at least 20 laps (+1 for the stewards reaction - if they react immediately - and +1 for the actual in-lap)?


Edited by LiJu914, 08 October 2023 - 14:48.


#4 TomNokoe

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 14:47

Doesn´t that mean, you can stretch your mandatory 18-lap (max) stint into at least 20 laps (+1 for the stewards reaction - if the react immediately - and +1 for the actual in-lap)?

no, because outlaps inlaps in a grand prix are still at racing speed, whereas the thinking during practice/quali is that they are not


Edited by TomNokoe, 08 October 2023 - 14:48.


#5 monolulu

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 14:47

So although teams will have a good idea when others are pitting they won’t know exactly which used tyre is on



#6 Tiakumosan

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 14:50

Can’t unsee Ditto when looking at the track map 😂

#7 LiJu914

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 14:52

no, because outlaps inlaps in a grand prix are still at racing speed, whereas the thinking during practice/quali is that they are not

 

I didnt´mean that in terms of counting the allowed laps on each set of tyres.

 

I meant it as a way of deliberately circumventing this rule without getting disqualified.



#8 MKSixer

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 14:54

The consequence of Pirelli Cheese Tires strikes again!  

 

Lift and Coast. Drive to a Delta. 18 Lap Maximum.  Back off the car in front of you.  Two warm up laps to get these tires into the proper operating window for one push lap.  

 

All of the above are insidious destroyers of this sport.  

 

I remember when F1 was a sprint racing series.  Now, Get Off My Lawn!!



#9 gillesfan76

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 14:54

Red Bull breached the regulations on rebuilding Checo’s car beyond both the allowed timeframe and the allowed stage without FIA supervision, so they consider it a third car now. So not only does he start from the pitlane but will have a time penalty added on top. Should have been DQ’d.

 

edit: the additional penalty, time penalty or otherwise, hasn’t yet been concluded. Expectations are that it will be 10 seconds but who knows. Knowing the FIA, wouldn’t be surprised if it was just a fine  :rolleyes:


Edited by gillesfan76, 08 October 2023 - 14:56.


#10 brucewayne

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 14:57

The consequence of Pirelli Cheese Tires strikes again!

Lift and Coast. Drive to a Delta. 18 Lap Maximum. Back off the car in front of you. Two warm up laps to get these tires into the proper operating window for one push lap.

All of the above are insidious destroyers of this sport.

I remember when F1 was a sprint racing series. Now, Get Off My Lawn!!


Don’t worry, as a consequence they will extend Pirellis contract. Typical FIA things, a clown show.

#11 TomNokoe

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:00

Red Bull breached the regulations on rebuilding Checo’s car beyond both the allowed timeframe and the allowed stage without FIA supervision, so they consider it a third car now. So not only does he start from the pitlane but will have a time penalty added on top. Should have been DQ’d.

 

edit: the additional penalty, time penalty or otherwise, hasn’t yet been concluded. Expectations are that it will be 10 seconds but who knows. Knowing the FIA, wouldn’t be surprised if it was just a fine  :rolleyes:

I found it very surprising Red Bull, who are always absolutely on top of the rules, fell foul of this just one race after Williams.

 

Maybe they had no choice with the spare parts available, or maybe Checo's crash was a convenient way to start him from pit lane, increasing his chances of being beaten by Hamilton in the WDC, thus triggering a break clause (I am speculating) allowing them to get rid of him for free to bring Ricciardo in for 2024.


Edited by TomNokoe, 08 October 2023 - 15:00.


#12 Carsey

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:01

Red Bull breached the regulations on rebuilding Checo’s car beyond both the allowed timeframe and the allowed stage without FIA supervision, so they consider it a third car now. So not only does he start from the pitlane but will have a time penalty added on top. Should have been DQ’d.

 

edit: the additional penalty, time penalty or otherwise, hasn’t yet been concluded. Expectations are that it will be 10 seconds but who knows. Knowing the FIA, wouldn’t be surprised if it was just a fine  :rolleyes:

Why disqualification?

 

Williams didnt get disqualified when they did the same a few weeks back.   And people are crying out for stewarding consistency. 



#13 ARTGP

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:03

I found it very surprising Red Bull, who are always absolutely on top of the rules, fell foul of this just one race after Williams.

 

Maybe they had no choice with the spare parts available, or maybe Checo's crash was a convenient way to start him from pit lane, increasing his chances of being beaten by Hamilton in the WDC, thus triggering a break clause (I am speculating) allowing them to get rid of him for free to bring Ricciardo in for 2024.

 

They have also taken all new PU elements for him (his 5th ICE, Turbo, MGU-H, etc etcs) which suggest they do care about that P2. 


Edited by ARTGP, 08 October 2023 - 15:04.


#14 AlcidioG

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:03

Why disqualification?

 

Williams didnt get disqualified when they did the same a few weeks back.   And people are crying out for stewarding consistency. 

 


Because RedBull

#15 MKSixer

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:12

Don’t worry, as a consequence they will extend Pirellis contract. Typical FIA things, a clown show.

At least they are consistent...unlike the stewarding.



#16 Red5ive

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:14

Only The Pinnacle of Motorsport ™ could get itself into this farcical mess.



#17 Peat

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:17

Oy vey!

Running out of reasons to watch this one. Surely all the fun quota was used up yesterday. 



#18 PayasYouRace

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:21

At least they are consistent...unlike the stewarding.

Unlike the FIA stewards?



#19 TomNokoe

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:24

For a three stop race, here is each driver's freshest four sets of tyres (Hard and Med only) and their combined maximum stint length.

 

Drivers at the top of this list have both fresher tyres and also more flexibility on when they can stop (e.g. aggressive undercut) because they have more stint length to "burn" than those at the bottom of this list.

 

57 lap race

 

MAG 72 (18-18-18-18)

TSU 72

ALB 72

BOT 71 (18-18-18-17)

VER 70 (18-18-17-17)

ZHO 69 (18-18-18-15)

LAW 68 (18-18-18-14)

SAR 67 (18-18-18-13)

ALO 66 (18-18-15-15)

STR 66 (18-18-18-12)

PER 64 (18-18-14-14)

OCO 64 (18-18-15-13)

GAS 64 (18-18-15-13)

NOR 63 (18-18-14-13)

PIA 63 (18-18-14-13)

HUL 63 (18-18-14-13)

RUS 62 (18-18-13-13)

LEC 61 (18-18-13-12)

SAI 61 (18-18-13-12)

HAM 59 (18-18-13-10)


Edited by TomNokoe, 08 October 2023 - 15:27.


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#20 Risil

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:26

Can’t unsee Ditto when looking at the track map

Perhaps a jellyfish when it's the other way up



#21 LolaB0860

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:29

In addition to the tire fiasco, we also have massively overpowered DRS here AND overeager drivers now that any strategy is out of window. And you have some gravel traps. So it'll be SC nightmare me thinks. And half the field receiving 5s, 10s penalties.

Edited by LolaB0860, 08 October 2023 - 15:31.


#22 gillesfan76

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:36

I found it very surprising Red Bull, who are always absolutely on top of the rules, fell foul of this just one race after Williams.

 

Maybe they had no choice with the spare parts available, or maybe Checo's crash was a convenient way to start him from pit lane, increasing his chances of being beaten by Hamilton in the WDC, thus triggering a break clause (I am speculating) allowing them to get rid of him for free to bring Ricciardo in for 2024.

 

Indeed



#23 jee

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:37

please, have a safetycar like 20 laps before the end, this will be mayham  :lol:



#24 geralt

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:39

For a three stop race, here is each driver's freshest four sets of tyres (Hard and Med only) and their combined maximum stint length.

 

Drivers at the top of this list have both fresher tyres and also more flexibility on when they can stop (e.g. aggressive undercut) because they have more stint length to "burn" than those at the bottom of this list.

 

57 lap race

 

MAG 72 (18-18-18-18)

TSU 72

ALB 72

BOT 71 (18-18-18-17)

VER 70 (18-18-17-17)

ZHO 69 (18-18-18-15)

LAW 68 (18-18-18-14)

SAR 67 (18-18-18-13)

ALO 66 (18-18-15-15)

STR 66 (18-18-18-12)

PER 64 (18-18-14-14)

OCO 64 (18-18-15-13)

GAS 64 (18-18-15-13)

NOR 63 (18-18-14-13)

PIA 63 (18-18-14-13)

HUL 63 (18-18-14-13)

RUS 62 (18-18-13-13)

LEC 61 (18-18-13-12)

SAI 61 (18-18-13-12)

HAM 59 (18-18-13-10)

Surely a fresh soft will be better than a 10 laps used medium - by the time of the last pit stop, the track should be significantly more rubbered in compared to the sprint shootout.

 

Hamilton will probably start on the fresh set of mediums, go onto the hard, the go on to the used medium and then around lap 49 put on the softs. That should work quite well


Edited by geralt, 08 October 2023 - 15:39.


#25 jjcale

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:41

I found it very surprising Red Bull, who are always absolutely on top of the rules, fell foul of this just one race after Williams.

 

Maybe they had no choice with the spare parts available, or maybe Checo's crash was a convenient way to start him from pit lane, increasing his chances of being beaten by Hamilton in the WDC, thus triggering a break clause (I am speculating) allowing them to get rid of him for free to bring Ricciardo in for 2024.

i like it but its too convoluted .... and key parts are completely speculative 

 

b+   for effort.



#26 TheFish

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:43

A badly timed safety car will completely **** the guys with minimal leeway in terms of tyre use.

Obviously if they’d known at the start of the weekend they’d have planned differently, but hard to legislate for FIA incompetence.

#27 PayasYouRace

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:46

A badly timed safety car will completely fuck the guys with minimal leeway in terms of tyre use.

Obviously if they’d known at the start of the weekend they’d have planned differently, but hard to legislate for FIA incompetence.

 

 

Surely this is Pirelli incompetence, not the FIA?



#28 TomNokoe

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:47

Surely a fresh soft will be better than a 10 laps used medium

Hamilton started the sprint yesterday on a 7 lap (3 hot laps) used Medium and it was much better than a Soft. Unfortunately Pirelli are counting hot laps and cool down laps for their stint lengths.

 

As you say, after 40-45 laps the track will be in its best condition all weekend, and 10 laps of fuel weight will put as little strain as possible on a brand new Soft, so maybe it can work. Risky, though.


Edited by TomNokoe, 08 October 2023 - 15:47.


#29 Bleu

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:48

A car stops on the pit entry just when someone is on the last allowed lap. Safety car with pits closed.

 

So entering to the closed pit lane = 10 second stop/go

Not entering to the closed pit lane = Black flag



#30 TheFish

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:49

Surely this is Pirelli incompetence, not the FIA?


It’s both. 18 laps is made up, if the race was 59 laps they’d allow 19 laps. They just didn’t want everyone doing a 2 stop pitting on the same laps. It’s for the show, and I want to watch sport, not Netflix bollocks.

#31 liamski

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:54

Fabrega on Twitter (Sorry, X) saying Sainz may be out, fuel leak on his car?

https://twitter.com/...R9KJtB2rOA&s=19

#32 Sam1

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:56

cant wait for this race if the 3 mandatory stops go ahead will keep the teams guessing like old times 



#33 Sam1

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 15:59

Fabrega on Twitter (Sorry, X) saying Sainz may be out, fuel leak on his car?

https://twitter.com/...R9KJtB2rOA&s=19

best news ive heard hope he can start at the back 



#34 SagemX

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:01

best news ive heard hope he can start at the back 

No, he'll be out of the race entirely



#35 Brian60

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:02

As above, Ted Kravitz reporting that the Ferrari of Saintz may not be starting the race.



#36 kosmos

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:05

Fabrega said on TV, Sainz is not running.



#37 Thursday

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:05

Surely this is Pirelli incompetence, not the FIA?

I'd say it's a bit of both. The Pirelli tyres can't cope with the FIA approved kerbs.

If the FIA had done it's job properly when inspecting the circuit the kerbs could have been changed and we wouldn't be in this situation.



#38 MortenF1

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:05

Poor Sainz 😔

#39 Laster

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:07

Wasn't this the same maneuver that got Hamilton a penalty with Piastri in Monza but nothing for Ocon?....

Hamilton didn’t leave a cars width of space.

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#40 Jellyfishcake

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:08

Thats rough for Sainz, (also must be bad because there is still nearly an hour till the race)

 

Only good thing for him is, it's likely that Ferrari are going to have a horrible day, so if there's one the miss this might be it



#41 Thursday

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:09

How does a car develop a fuel leak overnight?



#42 MortenF1

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:10

How does a car develop a fuel leak overnight?

Yeah, and how on earth are they not able to fix it??

#43 Carsey

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:10

How does a car develop a fuel leak overnight?

The Lec side of the garage were playing games? lol

 

Good question though!



#44 Stephane

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:11

How does a car develop a fuel leak overnight?

 

If they knew, that would not happen



#45 Muppetmad

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:12

https://twitter.com/...050536277942382

 

No penalty for Pérez...



#46 RacingSmoke

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:12

I’m getting flashbacks to Lewis China 2011 when I think about pre race fuel leaks. McLaren just about sorted it in time if I remember correctly.

#47 Garagista

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:12

Well Sainz also much have taken in consideration the place and situation, how can he recover without going longer, or looking for alternative strategies!

This will not be a real f1 race.

#48 Sam1

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:14

Can Ferrari not put Sainz in Leclerc’s car?


#49 Touchdown

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:14

best news ive heard hope he can start at the back 

He won't be starting at all.



#50 Sam1

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 16:16

I’m getting flashbacks to Lewis China 2011 when I think about pre race fuel leaks. McLaren just about sorted it in time if I remember correctly.

my bet is in the fuel is eating the seals and they wont admit it and would Probably mean a engine change