133 replies to this topic

[LolaB0860]

There are many opinions about them, what's yours

 

Edited by LolaB0860, 10 October 2023 - 09:27.

[Risil]

Voted Bahrain because unlike the others I've consistently seen good races that I've enjoyed there.

 

-5 marks for not calling the outer loop the Bahrain OVAL. 

[LolaB0860]

Risil, on 10 Oct 2023 - 09:20, said:

-5 marks for not calling the outer loop the Bahrain OVAL. 

 

I'm here to please so the poll has been edited... 

[Risil]

If one good thing came out of 2020 it was that damn oval race. We'd talked about that "outer loop" layout on here for years, probably as a joke, because it was visible for everyone to see on Google Maps. Then it came to life. Then Lewis got Covid. Then the cartoon anvil fell on George Russell.

[Clrnc]

Qatar has the best racing for me. Superb track layout.

[KWSN - DSM]

There should be no Middle East Grand Prixs

[JvsKVB77]

Bahrain - good circuit and there are  no questions for racing every year(but only GP layout, outer loop is awful). Yas, Qatar, Kuwait and maybe  future Saudi circuit - not more than 1 of this each year. Jeddah - never. 

Edited by JvsKVB77, 10 October 2023 - 09:50.

[Risil]

The only one I really dislike is the Saudi circuit because it puts the drivers in danger for no reason, they're not even real streets.

[Myrvold]

KWSN - DSM, on 10 Oct 2023 - 09:40, said:

There should be no Middle East Grand Prixs

 

One of the rare times we agree!

[goldenboy]

They all lack character. Never really been excited for one of these tracks, even if we sometimes get a good race. The vibe around the track is important.

[jcbc3]

It's a world championship. There should be races all over. Inclusive the middle east.

[jcbc3]

And the sooner they get rid of Abu Dhabi, the better.

[LolaB0860]

I don't like any of them and don't think the region should have GP, but Bahrain is the least problematic (if we choose to ignore 2011) and the Outer OVAL was actually pretty decent for what it was. Although even then it should have been held in daylight, the illumination does nothing

 

Abu Dhabi is the most boring event in general, but Qatar is the most disgusting, while Jeddah is the lamest as it feels so hollow and fabricated for non-street circuit. And the conflict with Yemen on top + horrible Royal Family

Edited by LolaB0860, 10 October 2023 - 10:07.

[ernestomodena]

It's a world championship so one should do. Personally I like Abu Dhabi it has his own identity with the hotel, raised seating section, harbor and ferrari world building. And with history of the 2016 and 2021 championships as well as the bye bye donuts.

[noikeee]

Keep Bahrain and set fire to the rest.

[PayasYouRace]

I’m a bit torn.

Some of the circuits are a lot of fun. Sakhir’s outer circuit, the oval, is easily the best and was a gift to F1. It’s a crying shame that the Grand Prix isn’t held on that layout

Qatar’s circuit is a lot of fun, a fast flowing layout that really suits modern F1 cars.

Jeddah, with a few safety changes required, is like a Surfers Paradise and is dramatic.

The other circuits in the region, including Bahrain’s full layout, are generic Tilkedromes that I wouldn’t miss at all. Especially Abu Dhabi, which despite the changes a few years ago which improved it a lot, is still the worst.

But then there’s the political and social aspect. With limited space on the calendar, I don’t think F1 should be going to authoritarian countries with severe human rights abuse problems, where the locals don’t seem all that interested, provide no drivers or constructors, and basically throw money at sportswashing.

When you can only pick twenty or so countries to host F1, you should be picking the best, and you can absolutely have a world championship without any Middle East countries.

[Laptom]

KWSN - DSM, on 10 Oct 2023 - 09:40, said:

There should be no Middle East Grand Prixs

 

Why?

[1player]

My issue is not about the circuits per se, but the countries that are hosting them. Hoping not to do a Khashoggi, I'd rather not give more money or publicity to countries like Saudi Arabia, however good their circuit is.

So the question is, which of these sultanates is the least corrupt/bigot/warmongering? Mind you, I have no issue with their religion or oil business, if they don't use either as geopolitical weapon.

[LolaB0860]

ernestomodena, on 10 Oct 2023 - 10:16, said:

It's a world championship so one should do.

 

Current GP geographical division (for 2024) is:

 

Europe 37,5%

Asia 33,2% (Middle East 16,6% + "The rest" at 16.6%)

North America 20,8%

South America 4,1%

Australia 4,1%

Africa 0%

 

So a relatively small sub-region of Asia is taking over 16% of the calendar (18% this year when we have fewer races)

 

If ME had just single GP, Asia (with it's other current hosts + presumably expansion in other regions) would still have 20,8% of the calendar

 

If ME had zero GPs, Asia would be behind Europe and North America, and there would be large geographical gaps between Asian races - but then again there are already is with races held either in Middle-East and Far East, leaving the rest empty (Baku being geographical oddity in between)

Edited by LolaB0860, 10 October 2023 - 10:45.

[PayasYouRace]

1player, on 10 Oct 2023 - 10:33, said:

My issue is not about the circuits per se, but the countries that are hosting them. Hoping not to do a Khashoggi, I'd rather not give more money or publicity to countries like Saudi Arabia, however good their circuit is.

So the question is, which of these sultanates is the least corrupt/bigot/warmongering? Mind you, I have no issue with their religion or oil business, if they don't use either as geopolitical weapon.

There are many measures. I often use the Economist Democracy Index (https://en.m.wikiped...Democracy_Index), which ranks on Electoral Process, Civil Liberties, Functioning of Government, Political Participation and Political Culture.

Of the F1 hosts in the region, Qatar is the highest rated at a 3.65, followed by the UAE on 2.90, Bahrain on 2.52, and Saudi Arabia on 2.08.

For comparison, the highest rated F1 nation is The Netherlands on 9.00, USA which has the most races is a 7.85, the next above Qatar is Mexico on 5.25 , and there is only one F1 country rated lower than Saudi, which is China on 1.94 (which is why I’m glad it hasn’t happened lately, despite being included).

I’m sure there are other measures but I doubt you’d get vastly different results.

[Beri]

KWSN - DSM, on 10 Oct 2023 - 09:40, said:

There should be no Middle East Grand Prixs

 

I agree. Middle Eastern Grands Prixs on the other hand ( )..... Only Bahrain in my opinion is worthy of a Grand Prix.

[SenorSjon]

Usually:

 

Too hot

Too dusty

Not much fans. Qatar had 110k or something like that over the weekend, while other races break the 300k. 

Night racing I don't like, sometimes we have quite a few dark races in a row.

No terrain features. Come on, the desert has dunes, use them! Even Zandvoort in my flat country has more height differences than the Middle East GP's combined (including the weird pit tunnel).

No heritage.

 

I understand it is for the money. But it usually isn't nice to look at.

[Sash1]

Empty

Edited by Sash1, 10 October 2023 - 11:29.

[JimmyClark]

The best circuit (in terms of layout/challenge) in the Middle East is Kuwait Motor Town, so I wouldn't mind seeing that on the calendar purely for the track. The country as a destination is awful, though, so it doesn't have the 'glitz' that Liberty like with new races. Maybe rotate this with Saudi for that reason. 

 

And Bahrain should alternate each year between the GP circuit and the outer circuit. 

 

That's it for me. A region that has contributed a grand total of ZERO driver entries (out of 775) despite having 17 countries comprising it should not make up more than 10% of an F1 calendar in any given year. 

Edited by JimmyClark, 10 October 2023 - 11:32.

[SenorSjon]

https://www.racefans...und-up-10-10-6/

 

 

 

Quote

Qatar attracts small crowd despite capacity increase

A crowd of 38,725 turned up to watch Saturday’s sprint race at Losail International Circuit in which Verstappen clinched his third world championship. The recently renovated track can accommodate a total of 52,000 spectators.

 

The Saturday figure was the lowest across the three-day event. Friday qualifying for the grand prix attracted 39,503 fans and there were 48,168 present for the main event on Sunday.

 

Verstappen won his second title at Suzuka last year with over 90,000 in attendance for the grand prix which was run in heavy rain.

 

 

 

Even ME money doesn't like sprint races. 

Edited by SenorSjon, 10 October 2023 - 11:32.

[1player]

PayasYouRace, on 10 Oct 2023 - 10:45, said:

There are many measures. I often use the Economist Democracy Index (https://en.m.wikiped...Democracy_Index), which ranks on Electoral Process, Civil Liberties, Functioning of Government, Political Participation and Political Culture.

Of the F1 hosts in the region, Qatar is the highest rated at a 3.65, followed by the UAE on 2.90, Bahrain on 2.52, and Saudi Arabia on 2.08.

For comparison, the highest rated F1 nation is The Netherlands on 9.00, USA which has the most races is a 7.85, the next above Qatar is Mexico on 5.25 , and there is only one F1 country rated lower than Saudi, which is China on 1.94 (which is why I’m glad it hasn’t happened lately, despite being included).

I’m sure there are other measures but I doubt you’d get vastly different results.

Thanks, excellent source. Even Russia has a better score than Saudi Arabia (2.28)

[Calum]

I wonder what will happen with Qatar Doha Waterfront Circuit plans.

 

They’ve spent a fortune doing up Lusail pits and hospitality, presumably for long term F1. But it’s not like they don’t have a bottomless pit to just decide to go and host the new street race instead.

 

 

 

Bahrain (short) was the best because it was so different from the normal template. Too much of modern F1 is clinical and same-y.

[RacingSmoke]

There absolutely should be GP's in the Middle East, for the fact it is a world championship and F1 should be expanding. I think it's an overall good thing for the sport to have new countries and tracks. In terms of the political argument, no country is without its horrific ills, and by all means some of the actions of the governments in the Middle East are horrible. But despite all this Britain sells billions of arms to Saudi and Qatar every year. So much for a moral compass. If we're keeping it a buck, Britain should not have held the inaugural race in 1950 considering what it was subjecting countries to. But it did and nobody had/has a problem with it. 

 

Anyway, racing wise. In terms of races and circuits, Bahrain is the best of the lot. By far. Very nice track and some enjoyable races over the years. The move to a night race and the debut it saw in 2014 has only made me like it more.

[jonpollak]

Voted Bahrain Oval.
The rest can go.

There are way too many races already !!!
That oval though.. it’s a winner.
Jp

[PayasYouRace]

RacingSmoke, on 10 Oct 2023 - 11:39, said:

There absolutely should be GP's in the Middle East, for the fact it is a world championship and F1 should be expanding. I think it's an overall good thing for the sport to have new countries and tracks. In terms of the political argument, no country is without its horrific ills, and by all means some of the actions of the governments in the Middle East are horrible. But despite all this Britain sells billions of arms to Saudi and Qatar every year. So much for a moral compass. If we're keeping it a buck, Britain should not have held the inaugural race in 1950 considering what it was subjecting countries to. But it did and nobody had/has a problem with it.

Anyway, racing wise. In terms of races and circuits, Bahrain is the best of the lot. By far. Very nice track and some enjoyable races over the years. The move to a night race and the debut it saw in 2014 has only made me like it more.

I don't think it benefits anyone comparing behaviour of the past to behaviour today. The world was a very different place in 1950. I don’t see why the Middle East should have races just because they’re there.

[Anderis]

And just because something is called World Championship doesn't mean it has to visit every part of the world. It's not possible to do it anyway. Hell, a lot of World Championships are held in a single country. World Championship means it's open to competitors from all over the world, not that it has to take place all over the world.

[MattK9]

It is a world championship, so yes there should be GPs in middle east.

Middle East produce alot of oil so it is no surprise they are willing to sponsor racing.

 

Generally there should be less races each year, both less overall number of races and less in middle east. They should rotate the circuits so that we go to different dircuits each year so that the calendar doesnt become stale.

[Bloggsworth]

I'm against sportswashing...

[KWSN - DSM]

Laptom, on 10 Oct 2023 - 10:24, said:

Why?

 

Blood money and too many Grand Prix's overall, as I have said before we should lose

 

Miami

Las Vegas

Singapore

Abu Dhabi

Saudi Arabia

Qatar

Azerbaijan

Bahrain

Emilia Romagna

 

Having races on each continent suffice, no need to make the Middle East out to be a special place in the world.

[RacingSmoke]

PayasYouRace, on 10 Oct 2023 - 11:56, said:

I don't think it benefits anyone comparing behaviour of the past to behaviour today. The world was a very different place in 1950. I don’t see why the Middle East should have races just because they’re there.

 

I think it's a relevant comparison. And 1950 is in living memory of a significant number of people and even more with parents and grandparents. So let's not use 'it was a different time let's excuse how they acted' type of approach. It was fine then but its not fine now, yeah typical.

 

Regardless I can use countless far more recent examples of horrific abuses committed by countries we regard as classics. And barely anyone asking or saying races should be dropped. We've discussed this on other threads, I just think we view things different as a generational thing. There's a chance I might see things different in years to come. But now, no.

 

I could care less about 'sportswashing' not because I'm heartless, but because we would not have a calendar at all if we went through every country with a fine tooth comb. 

[StevoCBR]

Bahrain is my current favourite.  But I also like Istanbul circuit, if we can count Turkey as part of the Middle East in this.

[KWSN - DSM]

RacingSmoke, on 10 Oct 2023 - 12:29, said:

I think it's a relevant comparison. And 1950 is in living memory of a significant number of people and even more with parents and grandparents. So let's not use 'it was a different time let's excuse how they acted' type of approach. It was fine then but its not fine now, yeah typical.

 

Regardless I can use countless far more recent examples of horrific abuses committed by countries we regard as classics. And barely anyone asking or saying races should be dropped. We've discussed this on other threads, I just think we view things different as a generational thing. There's a chance I might see things different in years to come. But now, no.

 

I could care less about 'sportswashing' not because I'm heartless, but because we would not have a calendar at all if we went through every country with a fine tooth comb. 

 

And that is how the world slide in the wrong direction.

 

Things will be better by taking a stand, not by caving in.

[KWSN - DSM]

StevoCBR, on 10 Oct 2023 - 12:32, said:

Bahrain is my current favourite.  But I also like Istanbul circuit, if we can count Turkey as part of the Middle East in this.

 

I would welcome Turkey back, which race do we drop?

[Speedometer]

I voted Bahrain as the best. It has served up some great racing such as the brilliant 2014 duel in the dessert and also Lewis v Max in 2021.

[RacingSmoke]

KWSN - DSM, on 10 Oct 2023 - 12:32, said:

And that is how the world slide in the wrong direction.

 

Things will be better by taking a stand, not by caving in.

 

Just to make it clear, I have no issue with people disagreeing with me on this. On here, I accept my view is probably in the minority.

 

And I hear that, but are we going to have the same energy for the classics? Because it's clear there is very little energy on the flip side in pressing the very questionable actions of countries which hold that title. 

 

For example: Should Britain be dropped from the calendar for selling billions of arms to Saudi and Qatar every year? 

[StevoCBR]

KWSN - DSM, on 10 Oct 2023 - 12:33, said:

I would welcome Turkey back, which race do we drop?

I would drop any of the other ME rounds for Turkey.  But I guess Qatar or Saudi would be first to go, then Abu Dhabi next, then Bahrain. 

 

I've been to 5 MotoGps and a couple of WBSK at Losail, which I enjoyed, but the F1 was not good.  And friends still in Qatar reported issues with getting to the circuit, such as been dropped of by bus 3ks from track and having to walk in the heat and problems with water supply.  They were expecting better organisation at the F1, after the World Cup was well organised.

[PayasYouRace]

RacingSmoke, on 10 Oct 2023 - 12:29, said:

I think it's a relevant comparison. And 1950 is in living memory of a significant number of people and even more with parents and grandparents. So let's not use 'it was a different time let's excuse how they acted' type of approach. It was fine then but its not fine now, yeah typical.

Regardless I can use countless far more recent examples of horrific abuses committed by countries we regard as classics. And barely anyone asking or saying races should be dropped. We've discussed this on other threads, I just think we view things different as a generational thing. There's a chance I might see things different in years to come. But now, no.

I could care less about 'sportswashing' not because I'm heartless, but because we would not have a calendar at all if we went through every country with a fine tooth comb.

Ok let’s try a thought experiment. Where would the original countries that hosted Grands Prix rank, in 1950, on the index linked before? Where would they sit relative to countries that rank low on the scale today, and why should we ignore the improvements they’ve made and current situation.

I can’t tell. Could you or couldn’t you care less.

This is the problem you’re bringing. If you’re going through every country with a fine tooth comb to find every past atrocity and ignoring where we are now, then it will result in nothing. I think it’s vile, to hold the best examples of countries to an impossible standard based on their past to wash away the problems of the worst countries today, and pretend everyone is the same. The reason some of these countries are better places today is because we realised the actions of the past were wrong and we changed things.

[Gyan]

1player, on 10 Oct 2023 - 10:33, said:

My issue is not about the circuits per se, but the countries that are hosting them. Hoping not to do a Khashoggi, I'd rather not give more money or publicity to countries like Saudi Arabia, however good their circuit is.

So the question is, which of these sultanates is the least corrupt/bigot/warmongering? Mind you, I have no issue with their religion or oil business, if they don't use either as geopolitical weapon.

 

Oman's the least bigoted/warmongering and most liberal Gulf State but of course they're the only ones without any existing grand prix. Typical. 

[KWSN - DSM]

RacingSmoke, on 10 Oct 2023 - 12:38, said:

Just to make it clear, I have no issue with people disagreeing with me on this. On here, I accept my view is probably in the minority.

 

And I hear that, but are we going to have the same energy for the classics? Because it's clear there is very little energy on the flip side in pressing the very questionable actions of countries which hold that title. 

 

For example: Should Britain be dropped from the calendar for selling billions of arms to Saudi and Qatar every year? 

 

No we should not, it is a long political discussion why we should not, why there is no comparison to legal arms sale and ordering and committing actual murder of a journalist in an embassy. We have both made our stance clear, I will refrain saying what I mean in x number of different ways, I mean what I say.

[TheFish]

Saudi is definitely one of the worst countries on the planet, we absolutely should not be racing there.

 

Every ME race needs to be a night race because it hides how awful, soulless and empty each race is.

 

Has there been any growth in motor sport in the ME because of all the oil/blood money they give to Liberty?

 

1 race a year would be suitable given the irrelevance of the region, and that should be the Bahrain Oval.

[Aaaarrgghh]

Jeddah is an amazing circuit, so I voted for Saudi Arabia. Bahrain is okay too, but I really wish that they would return to daytime racing there.

[FortiFord]

PayasYouRace, on 10 Oct 2023 - 10:45, said:

There are many measures. I often use the Economist Democracy Index (https://en.m.wikiped...Democracy_Index), which ranks on Electoral Process, Civil Liberties, Functioning of Government, Political Participation and Political Culture.

Of the F1 hosts in the region, Qatar is the highest rated at a 3.65, followed by the UAE on 2.90, Bahrain on 2.52, and Saudi Arabia on 2.08.

For comparison, the highest rated F1 nation is The Netherlands on 9.00, USA which has the most races is a 7.85, the next above Qatar is Mexico on 5.25 , and there is only one F1 country rated lower than Saudi, which is China on 1.94 (which is why I’m glad it hasn’t happened lately, despite being included).

I’m sure there are other measures but I doubt you’d get vastly different results.

 

The problem is that we shouldn't have the base view that every country should be democratic, particularly in that region, where we've seen in the past that democracy often doesn't work/isn't wanted. 

[PayasYouRace]

FortiFord, on 10 Oct 2023 - 12:51, said:

The problem is that we shouldn't have the base view that every country should be democratic, particularly in that region, where we've seen in the past that democracy often doesn't work/isn't wanted.

Wow! Just wow!

[FortiFord]

TheFish, on 10 Oct 2023 - 12:48, said:

Saudi is definitely one of the worst countries on the planet, we absolutely should not be racing there.

 

Every ME race needs to be a night race because it hides how awful, soulless and empty each race is.

 

Has there been any growth in motor sport in the ME because of all the oil/blood money they give to Liberty?

 

1 race a year would be suitable given the irrelevance of the region, and that should be the Bahrain Oval.

 

Yes there has.

 

https://www.sportspr...amco-motorsport

 

https://www.blackboo...sport-qatar-uae

[Aaaarrgghh]

FortiFord, on 10 Oct 2023 - 12:51, said:

The problem is that we shouldn't have the base view that every country should be democratic, particularly in that region, where we've seen in the past that democracy often doesn't work/isn't wanted. 

While I don't think that you should isolate non-democratic countries (since that does not help to make them more democratic), I think it's reasonable as a believer in the democratic system to wish that as many people as possible should enjoy political freedom. There are no peoples for which political freedom does not work. The problem you describe is more with countries where you quickly slap on the label of democracy, call some elections and think that will solve the problem when it takes decades of work to develop a politically free society. Most of Europe didn't magically become democratic overnight.