132 replies to this topic

[RacingSmoke]

Why in a thread about Middle East racing are we discussing the Windrush scandal in the United Kingdom?

 

Because it's a relevant comparison. People say there should not be any races in the Middle East due to their shocking human rights record. They are PERFECTLY fine to express that view, I agree there are legitimate grounds and evidence for holding it. But then we can say hold on we but what about issues in the so called classics, the undroppables. Why was there not any outcry or discussion for Britain to be dropped for some of the most awful abuses in recent history? I'm highlighting the difference in energy and vim. There are seemingly never any threads about racing in Europe or North America when another human rights scandal comes out of there.

 

But I said even despite the inhumane treatment, Britain should NOT be dropped at all. 

 

But like I said, go tell the victims why there should be different standards. That's all I ask. No ramping just go tell them that and see what they say back.

[noriaki]

An awful incident, 0.1% of the population. Yeah. Sure. You don't have any clue about the true suffering that these people went through or the discourse, so I think it's best to leave it there. 

 

No I wouldn't endorse a damn race in Russia given what they've done recently, with an clear and unwarranted aggressive invasion of another sovereign country. The problem has and always will be can you give the same energy to other countries that do the same/similar? Seems you and others can't.

 

As for North Korea, that country has practically no meaningful engagement with the international community, let alone what is seemingly one of the most authoritarian and closed door regimes. I don't even believe its possible to travel there without going through extreme channels which a normal person can't do. There's nothing to endorse about a F1 race there. It's pathetic to even bring them up as an example. You happy now? 

 

While we're at it, given your questioning of me, will you condemn the yearly sale of arms worth billions by Britain to countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar? And should this mean Britain be dropped from the calendar?

 

Saudi Arabia is playing a major part in the Yemeni civil war, as is also Azerbaijan in the war they have with Armenia - both are wars killing thousands and displacing hundreds of thousands of people. So tell me, where's the same energy you have against Russia when it comes to being against hosting races in those countries?

 

---

 

Personally I do not condone Britain's involvement in that business at all - but then again I am not British but an EU citizen so there's very little I can do about that particular political issue. I also do not think partaking in international sales of arms is morally equivalent an offence to the major human rights crimes of the Gulf countries that impact in everyday lives of vast majority of people living in them.

 

However if you are willing to draw a much stricter line and boycott most countries for their human rights offences based on the Windrush scandal, that's also fine by me. We all draw those lines somewhere. As long as you don't judge me for drawing it somewhere between the likes of Hungary/Mexico and the likes Russia/China/Saudi instead. And as long as you don't try and pretend that UK and Saudi have equally bad regimes because that's just offensive to people suffering from living in the latter.

[highdownforce]

There are many measures. I often use the Economist Democracy Index (https://en.m.wikiped...Democracy_Index), which ranks on Electoral Process, Civil Liberties, Functioning of Government, Political Participation and Political Culture.

Of the F1 hosts in the region, Qatar is the highest rated at a 3.65, followed by the UAE on 2.90, Bahrain on 2.52, and Saudi Arabia on 2.08.

For comparison, the highest rated F1 nation is The Netherlands on 9.00, USA which has the most races is a 7.85, the next above Qatar is Mexico on 5.25 , and there is only one F1 country rated lower than Saudi, which is China on 1.94 (which is why I’m glad it hasn’t happened lately, despite being included).

I’m sure there are other measures but I doubt you’d get vastly different results.

This index has monarchies and apartheid countries ahead of fully fledged democracies.

It is in no way representative of what it is supposed to be.

[Dolph]

 
Nothing like living a lie and hiding who you are, right?
As long as I avoid public displays of affection, the other one (or me...) not being to feminine apparently. And not doing X Y Z, then maybe it will be fine. Of course there are LGB-people living there, there's LGB-people in every country in the world. Born that way, regardless of how illegal it is.
 
There's nothing more in the world that I want to do... After enduring a school year of constant "f*ggot" "homo!!" "gaaaay" "like to suck c??" "****ing queer" etc. and being a part of motorsport where men are supposed to like girls. And grid girls even was a thing in karting. Because guys like to look at girls, and anything else isn't right. Being together with a dude for 16 years. One who spent countless of years getting to the point where he felt safe enough to tells his family. Losing friends to suicide because they couldn't endure the bullying and parents not being accepting.
Then travelling to a country where I can be sentenced to death is really high up on my bucket list. I ****ing love to feel hated, to feel like there's something wrong with me, to know that people want me dead. It's not even a year since I read about people getting flogged and beaten as a punishment in Qatar. The World Cup ambassador said he considered being gay a "mental defect". Sure, that makes me feel very safe and welcome.
 

Perfect... Intesify the criminalization. Guess I should visit before it gets even worse then. Good think I'm not feminine, as I wouldn't be allowed to enter Bahrain...
 

 
Luckily I'm not a muslim, so I wouldn't get a death penalty... or maybe that's just Qatar that's that kind towards non-muslims... Should buy an expensive enough ticket for F1 though, and I'll be fine. A bit like North Korea. Then I will be catered and see what they want me to see.
 

I don't feel like going to see how "open and great it is", when it's all down to who gets up on the wrong foot or not.

 

Ugh. I'm not even a fan of kissing out among people, but when a simple act of holding hands and giving a small "good bye" kiss if one is leaving the other for a while is a huge risk... that's taking it way too far.

 

 

 

So no. They want me dead, tortured or in prison. I think it's just bloody fair that I don't want them to host F1 races. It's just last year people were killed in my country by a terrorist using islam law as a reason... It's totally and utterly stupid of me to willingly travel to place where that's the ****ing law. It's not one person with a gun in June... It's the state law.

At least they are not hunting LGB like nazis did with jews. So I guess I should consider myself lucky and happy that I might be able to live a secret life in a dark room as long as no-one sees it?

Or maybe I'll just keep on using rainbow wristband to show support, to be there for the youngsters who are struggling. Showing that their boss at work will support them no matter what. That it is ok to be who they are, that even if some are bullying, other won't care at all. It's a steady progress and a steady road to a happier life.

 

Ffs. It gets me angry when money is more important than everything else. Built on slavery, torture, stoning and bonesaws. Doesn't matter. Got paid.

 

I'm a 100% with you 

[Sterzo]

The question here is simply: what's the best way to influence change? Confrontation, declarations of enmity and boycotts are unlikely to do it. RacingSmoke's reference to human rights abuses by the UK, US etc are definitely relevant: they'd be thrown back at those countries if they lectured the Middle East. Whether the abuses are on the same scale is not the point; they would undermine any attempt to take the moral high ground.

 

Working with people and trying to influence them may not work either, but it stands a better chance of having some effect. And it is the approach all our diplomats take. There's a clue in the word "diplomat".

[KWSN - DSM]

The question here is simply: what's the best way to influence change? Confrontation, declarations of enmity and boycotts are unlikely to do it. RacingSmoke's reference to human rights abuses by the UK, US etc are definitely relevant: they'd be thrown back at those countries if they lectured the Middle East. Whether the abuses are on the same scale is not the point; they would undermine any attempt to take the moral high ground.

 

Working with people and trying to influence them may not work either, but it stands a better chance of having some effect. And it is the approach all our diplomats take. There's a clue in the word "diplomat".

 

And I think that is exactly what will do it.

[Aaaarrgghh]

This index has monarchies and apartheid countries ahead of fully fledged democracies.

It is in no way representative of what it is supposed to be.

Some of the world's most free and democratic countries are monarchies. A republic is not automatically more democratic than a monarchy. What "fully fledged democracies" would you have ahead of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, New Zealand and the Netherlands, for instane?

 

Also, I'm curious: which are the apartheid countries ranked ahead of fully fledged democracies?

Edited by Aaaarrgghh, 11 October 2023 - 19:39.

[Primo]

The war in Israel will almost certainly change the political map in the Middle East and I would be surprised if next years F1 calendar will not be affected. 

Edited by Primo, 11 October 2023 - 19:56.

[highdownforce]

Some of the world's most free and democratic countries are monarchies. A republic is not automatically more democratic than a monarchy. What "fully fledged democracies" would you have ahead of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, New Zealand and the Netherlands, for instane?

Also, I'm curious: which are the apartheid countries ranked ahead of fully fledged democracies?

Apartheid country


Most of the "flawed democracy" in the very same ranking.

I'll also and make a good case that Brazil itself should be way higher in this index.

Definitely higher than an apartheid state and another specific state with shambles of a political and legal system (that also coincidentally have the largest imprisoned population in the world in absolute numbers).

[noriaki]

The question here is simply: what's the best way to influence change? Confrontation, declarations of enmity and boycotts are unlikely to do it. RacingSmoke's reference to human rights abuses by the UK, US etc are definitely relevant: they'd be thrown back at those countries if they lectured the Middle East. Whether the abuses are on the same scale is not the point; they would undermine any attempt to take the moral high ground.

 

Working with people and trying to influence them may not work either, but it stands a better chance of having some effect. And it is the approach all our diplomats take. There's a clue in the word "diplomat".

 

Boycotts and declarations of enmity were a part of what started the process to change things in South Africa and are what the World is currently doing regarding Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Both had their F1 races cancelled over these reasons but USA and Saudi Arabia did not, in spite of doing the same things on a lesser scale. 

 

Do you think the boycotts against Russia and South Africa were wrong?

[jAnO76]

There are many measures. I often use the Economist Democracy Index (https://en.m.wikiped...Democracy_Index), which ranks on Electoral Process, Civil Liberties, Functioning of Government, Political Participation and Political Culture.
 

Ah, this is probably the page that confused Helmut Marko. It put's Mexico in "Latin America" instead of North America.

[CoolBreeze]

I voted that they should remove everything in the middle east.

[Beri]

Ah, this is probably the page that confused Helmut Marko. It put's Mexico in "Latin America" instead of North America.

 

Define "Latin" America. It isnt the same as North or South America. Aside from that, 99.999999% of all the Mexican women identify themselves as "Latina". So I'd say its about as correct as pineapple on a pizza.

[Aaaarrgghh]

Apartheid country


Most of the "flawed democracy" in the very same ranking.

I'll also and make a good case that Brazil itself should be way higher in this index.

Definitely higher than an apartheid state and another specific state with shambles of a political and legal system (that also coincidentally have the largest imprisoned population in the world in absolute numbers).

Israel's highly questionable behaviour in the territories occcupied after the Seven Days War does not alter the fact that within its legal boundaries, it is a highly functional democracy with extensive political, cultural and economic freedoms. You can live freely as a Muslim in Israel proper, for instance. Brazil has huge problems with corruption, which is why they are lower than Israel (and the USA, which I guess that you're referring to).

This is starting to go off-topic and a debate about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the last thing we need here. I have already broken my own personal rule of discussing nothing but racing here several times. So I will leave it at that.

[Sterzo]

Boycotts and declarations of enmity were a part of what started the process to change things in South Africa and are what the World is currently doing regarding Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Both had their F1 races cancelled over these reasons but USA and Saudi Arabia did not, in spite of doing the same things on a lesser scale. 

 

Do you think the boycotts against Russia and South Africa were wrong?

Not analagous at all. Paddock Club territory, anyway.

[PayasYouRace]

Ah, this is probably the page that confused Helmut Marko. It put's Mexico in "Latin America" instead of North America.

Because it is. It’s part of the Americas which speaks a Latin based language predominantly.

[PayasYouRace]

This index has monarchies and apartheid countries ahead of fully fledged democracies.

It is in no way representative of what it is supposed to be.

As I’ve pointed out before, there are a number of measures and you can’t just point to a single thing as a way to determine “democracy” or not.

A constitutional monarchy (many of the top countries represented) can be a much better democracy than many republics, because it’s not as simple as the dichotomy you try to present it as.

[Dara]

Get rid of them, go back to a calender similar to the late 90's with less gp's so you can get exited again when there's a race.

I like F1 and will never miss a race when I'm home but it feels like a chore sometimes.

[highdownforce]

Israel's highly questionable behaviour in the territories occcupied after the Seven Days War does not alter the fact that within its legal boundaries, it is a highly functional democracy with extensive political, cultural and economic freedoms. You can live freely as a Muslim in Israel proper, for instance. Brazil has huge problems with corruption, which is why they are lower than Israel (and the USA, which I guess that you're referring to).

This is starting to go off-topic and a debate about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the last thing we need here. I have already broken my own personal rule of discussing nothing but racing here several times. So I will leave it at that.

This is highly off topic, but occupying territories beyond of the 1993 agreement (a joke on itself) against international law and being condemned by UN for it looks rather undemocratic.

Also, creating a second class of citizens that do have political rights (I talking about inside Israel borders) or when do have, a forbidden of creating parties or being elected to some positions also is rather undemocratic.

And a last point: the standard of mass detention of children (do remember 50% of Palestinians are not adults) and keeping a seige for 18 years (already the longest in modern history) do not seen the doings of a Democracy.

And guess what, corruption is a major thing outside of Brazil too! For instance: what is called lobby in US is to some extended degree a crime of corruption in Brazil.

The index is a bad taste joke, and your reasoning for disqualifying Brazil while supporting apartheid is of really bad taste and lack of info.

I'll end this here.

[noriaki]

Not analagous at all. Paddock Club territory, anyway.

 

I do not see how it is any more Paddock Club territory than any other messages in this thread. Please elaborate, how is the UK and US not being boycotted "definitely relevant" to the discussion about whether the Saudi human rights abuses and war involvements ought to warrant boycotts or not, if my analogy about South Africa and Russia being boycotted is somehow invalid?

 

Don't get me wrong, it *is* a good question whether or not boycotts in sports have any positive influence or not - and if you were to argue that you don't see the positive influence in any case, that would be a completely reasonable take in my books. But let's not use that philosophical debate to pretend that sporting boycotts over political reasons have not happened in sports. There have been several such instances, but the two examples I posted are the highest profile ones, and the final South African GP in 1985 - long after the country was excluded from most other sporting bodies - became a highly divisive issue amongst the participants, some of whom wanted to boycott, or boycotted that race altogether over political and/or humanitarian reasons.

 

Very analoguous to me - remember, we weren't that far from a participant-driven boycott of the Saudi GP that long ago...

[SenorSjon]

https://www.motorspo...nsion/10532322/

 

Spa, 380k people during the weekend is hanging on with a one year extention

Qatar, 110k people during the weekend still has 9(?) years left.

[cjm321190]

I dont mind the Saudi GP or the Bahrain outer loop. F1 needs fast circuits. We have not had a decent one since hockenheim original. Could be a bit boring but it had variety.

[piszkosfred]

Some of the world's most free and democratic countries are monarchies. A republic is not automatically more democratic than a monarchy. What "fully fledged democracies" would you have ahead of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, New Zealand and the Netherlands, for instane?

 

Also, I'm curious: which are the apartheid countries ranked ahead of fully fledged democracies?

These contries are maybe monarchies but the "monarchs" have no real power. Elected government by the people has.

[piszkosfred]

https://www.motorspo...nsion/10532322/

 

Spa, 380k people during the weekend is hanging on with a one year extention

Qatar, 110k people during the weekend still has 9(?) years left.

The only reason these races are on the calender is the money. And Liberty cares only about that.

[Sterzo]

I've tickled this old thread back into being because of a news story today, which includes the following passage:

 

"Lord Scriven also accused the chief executive of Formula One, Stefano Domenicali, of arrogance and damaging the reputation of the sport by failing to address issues around sportswashing, in a debate held in the House of Lords on Thursday."

 

Lord Scriven is a member of the Liberal Democrats, a minority party in the UK parliament, and he sits in the House of Lords (rather than the elected House of Commons), so it might be that not much notice will be taken of his comments by government. It's notable that he refers to the ownership of McLaren too, which he clearly doesn't like.

 

https://www.theguard...p-sportswashing

[William Hunt]

Honestly? They're all great circuits. I used to strongly dislike the Yas Marina circuit at Abu Dhabi because it produced very boring races but the changes they made to that track improved the racing clearly, in particular during the UAE F4 and F. Regional Middle East races the action at Yas Marina has clearly improved. But it's still a track I would get rid of, because there are better tracks for racing out there.

IN (for sure):

- Kuwait Motor Town:  it's easily hands down one of the best racing circuits in the world. Just check out the F4 races there in 2023 during the F4 UAE. If F1 would drive there, oh boy, it would be an instant favourite. It's so good because you can drive multiple lines.

- Dubai Grand Prix Circuit: much better track for overtaking & racing action as Yas Marina. Racing is always good there.

 

Dubai and especially Kuwait Motor Town are two of my favourite tracks world wide. They should be on the calendar if the best tracks purely for racing are objectively chosen. We should also have Istanbul and Mugelo back then.

 

Replace:

- Bahrein current F1 layout by Bahrein outer circuit (the one that was used when Perez won)

 

Keep:

- Jeddah: I think it's a very spectacular circuit, although it's a bit dangerous with many blind high speed corners

- Losail, Qatar:  I was pleasantly surprised how good the circuit is, in particular the track surface provides interesting racing. It's not a must keep for me, we can still see this circuit on the Moto GP calendar

- Baku:  wasn't mentioned in the topic but for sure a keeper. One of my favourite F1 circuits and the best street circuit imho. It's one of very few tracks in F1 that is able to produce an unexpected result. Fantastic layout and really in the city unlike Miami (a track I would remove).

 

Wait and see:

- Qiddia:  the track isn't finished yet, it's a very ambitious product but let's judge it after it's completed and we've seen racing on it

 

OUT:

- Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi:  the changes have improved the track but it's still one of the lesser F1 circuits for racing and we can still watch F4 and F. Regional on it every winter so kick it out and get Kuwait & Dubai in: those are REAL old school action racing tracks.

 

 

* the people who voted that they hate all of them should have a moment of reflection and check if there is not a racist element influencing their judgement, I suspect there is

Edited by William Hunt, 22 March 2024 - 00:52.

[William Hunt]

PS: I thought the reason of this poll was to discuss the race tracks, not the regimes of the countries where those tracks are located. I did just that with my previous post. Just try to judge the tracks if they are worth on the calendar, purely for racing please. And honestly: I'm a big fan of the Kuwait circuit. Do I think Kuwait should have a Grand Prix considering they don't have traditional F1 fans? No. But if we choose just the coolest and best circuits for Racing? Absolutely, I would love to see F1 cars at speed on that track, it would be spectacular.

[Ragingjamaican]

Got to love the comments on this thread, a lot of sense of entitlement.

 

There is an influx of Middle Eastern races and we can do with removing a couple I agree. But most of the reasoning here is just because they don't like the region, mainly "human rights", yet the 2 countries people see as a benchmark in this area UK & the US. Well...those 2 countries go to war in any country that doesn't agree with them politically or for their own benefit, and are currently supporting one of the biggest genocides we have witnessed in recent times! - and this too coming from a Brit!

 

There are a lot bland/boring tracks on the calendar, 3 out of 5 of them are from North America. Miami, Vegas, Mexico (gets a pass from many because of the vibe, as a track it is awful). 

 

F1 calendar lost it's identity some time ago when new F1 tracks were constantly added with similar layouts, night races and old ones refurbed which have been made worse. I feel this is where most of the anger comes from, but it's getting spun in a different way to make certain area.

Edited by Ragingjamaican, 22 March 2024 - 11:17.

[William Hunt]

A bit off topic since Mexico is not in the Middle East but... back in the old day's I used to like the Mexican track a lot, but it seems like the change of the final corner really had a big impact on how the track feels now. That corner was special and we have a slow stadion section, great for the fans but not so for spectacular racing, instead. Result: I don't like the circuit that much anymore. I remember in the '80s-90s it was quite a sight to see the cars first trhough the zig-zag section and then on a long straight towards that daunting Peraltada corner.

 

So for me, Mexico can go and make room for a more interesting track, once Perez is no more in F1.

 

On the calendar: I disagree that all tracks have similar layouts, they really don't. The similarity, in my humble opinion, is a feeling that is caused by Liberty forcing every circuit to carry their sponsors, the same couple of sponsors (Heineken, Salesforce, Aramco, Fly Emirates...) on every circuit. This has a huge impact on how a track looks since every circuit / country used to have the same local sponsors you would see on those tracks ever year. Now only Monaco still is allowed (for the moment) to add some of their own sponsors.

 

We used to see Fuji at Suzuka, Agip & Magnetti Marellin in Monza, Foster's in Adelaïde, Labatt in Montréal, Gitanes, Olivetti & Campari in Spa and Gauloises at Le Castellet, Unirolyal at the Nürburgring ('80s), Billstein at Hockheim, Agip, FIAMM & Segafredo at Imola, Duckhams, Ford in Detroit, Tio Pepe Sherry at Jerez & Shell at Brands Hatch...

That's just from the top of my head. Those sponsors I mentioned often stayed many years sponsoring those GP's. But now Liberty has their own sponsors and they forbid the circuits holding the GP's to have their own local sponsors and that's a big bite in their budgets but for us fans ... it makes every track seem generic.

Of the old races when we had different sponsors on each track, I could immediately say 'okay this picture was taken at that specific circuit' if that pic showed sponsor billboard names in the background, so it was also easy to recognise a circuit immediately. Now it all looks generic and you see the same sponsor names in the background everywhere.

Here Jerez, the famous photo finish between Mansell and winner Senna, in 1986. The Tio Pepe sponsoring, a local sherry brand, was present everywhere on the track and also on the outer pitt wall. If you see an F1 car with Tio Pepe in the background you knew for sure: okay this is in Jerez.

[RedRabbit]

By no evidence other the abysmal TV coverage, most spectators are Caucasians, presume expats living there, or flying in from Europe and North America - There appear very limited appeal in going to the races by the citizens and other residents of the countries.

Sunday is not a day off in the Middle East, it's a normal working day, which will have a lot to do with it.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

I quite like Bahrain, generally produces some decent racing (not uncommon for battles to start on the start finish straight and not end fully until past the exit of turn 4. Abu Dhabi should be blown up and them be told to start again with a different layout that hopefully produces better racing. It might have a hotel and pretty lights and some fireworks at the end, but as a race track for good racing, no, it's diabolically bad. Jeddah has only had what, 3 races now? So a bit difficult to judge. Qatar I'm not sure about. Some of the other tracks mentioned I haven't heard of or seen racing on so can't comment

[TheFish]

Sunday is not a day off in the Middle East, it's a normal working day, which will have a lot to do with it.

It won't though will it. If a GP was held in the UK (or Belgium, Australia, Italy etc) on a Wednesday there would still be 10s of thousands of people from the region there.

[Zmeej]

No F1 in any desert.

 

So, get the races out the locales in the Middle East and out of Vegas.

Edited by Zmeej, 23 March 2024 - 03:35.