74 replies to this topic

[YamahaV10]

 Most starts these days end up looking like this (see the picture) Whoever gets the marginal lead just literally slams the door until the opposing car is into the grass kicking up dust or in the marbles and wall. They all do it. It looks bush league and I don't really see how it is racing. 

 

Now a lot of ppl oppose regulating more what the drivers can do. But what if the pit lane and the painted space around the walls was not designated racing space ? The painted line is already there. I think it would improve the racing at the start. The drag race is the drag race. Whoever gets the lead cannot cut other cars below the pit lane or into the wall paint. If they do, they have to give the position up to the car they did it to. Wouldn't this be better ? It would lead to closer racing at the start. 

 

[GrumpyYoungMan]

It would still happen! They need less regulations and not more!

[Rediscoveryx]

I agree, in principle. Forcing another driver off the track (as Max is doing in the picture) should be illegal at the start as well.

However, once you’re behind the first row then the issue instantly becomes more complex, as drivers need to not only position themselves for the first corner but also react to the movements of cars ahead. It is to some extent the nature of the game that first lap incidents will occur, and that it is is a good general principle to have leniancy in situations that occur at the start of the race.

[Muppetmad]

Sadly, this has been going on for a long time. Vettel was notorious for it, and I warned it would cause an accident sooner or later, which it did. There was a time to nip this in the bud, and that time came and went many years ago.

Edited by Muppetmad, 26 October 2023 - 06:28.

[DW46]

It’s as old as time.

[Beri]

 Most starts these days end up looking like this (see the picture) Whoever gets the marginal lead just literally slams the door until the opposing car is into the grass kicking up dust or in the marbles and wall. They all do it. It looks bush league and I don't really see how it is racing. 

 

Now a lot of ppl oppose regulating more what the drivers can do. But what if the pit lane and the painted space around the walls was not designated racing space ? The painted line is already there. I think it would improve the racing at the start. The drag race is the drag race. Whoever gets the lead cannot cut other cars below the pit lane or into the wall paint. If they do, they have to give the position up to the car they did it to. Wouldn't this be better ? It would lead to closer racing at the start. 

 

 

Its a thing of the olden days. So I cant see the issue. It has been done by the likes of Vettel, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Hill, Prost, Senna, Mansell (you get the idea), so I reckon it is a part of the sport. 

[PayasYouRace]

The Schumi Chop, as originally named.

[H0R]

I encourage you to watch Ericsson at the last two Indy 500. That's just another level  - and at 380 kph to boot. Luckily he didn't hit anyone for once.

[Skelly1927]

LeCLerc drove himself there. 

next.

[ANF]

The Schumi Chop, as originally named.

Chop Schuey!

[ANF]

Its a thing of the olden days. So I cant see the issue. It has been done by the likes of Vettel, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Hill, Prost, Senna, Mansell (you get the idea), so I reckon it is a part of the sport.

If you no longer close a gap that exists...

[Cliff]

Perfectly fine.

[Ali623]

I've never considered this an issue, seems the drivers don't either, Leclerc had no issues with Verstappen's move in Austin.

[JimmyClark]

Again this is the problem of putting asphalt beyond the track limits, as it encourages this behaviour. I'm sure if there was grass there, Max wouldn't have forced Charles so wide because it's visually a lot more controversial to see a car forced off into the dirt, and there's a risk your opponent will spin and take you out too.

[PlatenGlass]

Drivers could just refuse to be intimidated off to the side. It might result in one or two collisions for them, but the other drivers would soon learn not to try it on with them.

[PlatenGlass]

The Schumi Chop, as originally named.

Yeah except what Schumacher would often do is chop across completely in front of another driver after making a poor start causing everyine behind to have to suddenly slow down.

[Touchdown]

Drivers could just refuse to be intimidated off to the side. It might result in one or two collisions for them, but the other drivers would soon learn not to try it on with them.

That's pretty much the most definitive way to end it - if Charles keeps going straight while Max comes across and they collide, you can be sure Max won't do this again to Charles.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Drivers could just refuse to be intimidated off to the side. It might result in one or two collisions for them, but the other drivers would soon learn not to try it on with them.

 

You'd probably get people complaining that they 'kept their nose in' or something similar.

[Sterzo]

 Most starts these days end up looking like this (see the picture) Whoever gets the marginal lead just literally slams the door until the opposing car is into the grass kicking up dust or in the marbles and wall. They all do it. It looks bush league and I don't really see how it is racing. 

 

Now a lot of ppl oppose regulating more what the drivers can do. But what if the pit lane and the painted space around the walls was not designated racing space ? The painted line is already there. I think it would improve the racing at the start. The drag race is the drag race. Whoever gets the lead cannot cut other cars below the pit lane or into the wall paint. If they do, they have to give the position up to the car they did it to. Wouldn't this be better ? It would lead to closer racing at the start. 

 

Totally agree with every word. We probably don't even need a new regulation, just to apply the existing ones. What's actually happening here is the pole sitter intimidating his opponent - back off or we crash.

 

This is from Pitpass.com in 2012:

 

Article 20.3 reads: "More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner."

20.4 reads: "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted."

https://www.pitpass....-amongst-others

[Deeq]

That's pretty much the most definitive way to end it - if Charles keeps going straight while Max comes across and they collide, you can be sure Max won't do this again to Charles.

I agree, Charles missed a golden opportunity there a very cheap (sprint) teachable moment for Max..

[SenorSjon]

The Schumi Chop, as originally named.

 

I remember it as the Schumacher Swerve.

 

 

Edit.

 

Singapore 2017 is one of the finest examples this going completely wrong. 

Edited by SenorSjon, 26 October 2023 - 10:23.

[Primo]

 Most starts these days end up looking like this (see the picture) Whoever gets the marginal lead just literally slams the door until the opposing car is into the grass kicking up dust or in the marbles and wall. They all do it. It looks bush league and I don't really see how it is racing. 

 

Now a lot of ppl oppose regulating more what the drivers can do. But what if the pit lane and the painted space around the walls was not designated racing space ? The painted line is already there. I think it would improve the racing at the start. The drag race is the drag race. Whoever gets the lead cannot cut other cars below the pit lane or into the wall paint. If they do, they have to give the position up to the car they did it to. Wouldn't this be better ? It would lead to closer racing at the start. 

 

Same rules apply - the white line. Leclerc is still on track. 

[B Squared]

I encourage you to watch Ericsson at the last two Indy 500. That's just another level  - and at 380 kph to boot. Luckily he didn't hit anyone for once.

Ericsson does not have a reputation as a habitual crash artist within IndyCar. His last two Indy 500's have resulted in a win and a second that (IMO) was questionable, as they rewrote the rulebook to make the race the Indianapolis 2.5 and effectively effed Ericsson out of two in a row.

 

To your point, yes, they weave down the straight to try to break the tow in the later laps. Al Unser, Jr. was the first I recall employing this practice in 1989 in defending against Emerson Fittipaldi. Thirty-four (34) years ago.....your scenario hasn't played out in that time. Al was punted into the wall by Emerson as they entered turn three, no weaving involved at that point of the circuit.

Edited by B Squared, 26 October 2023 - 11:05.

[Ruudbackus]

Non issue to me and the suggestion "But what if the pit lane and the painted space around the walls was not designated racing space ? " Doesn't solve anything, as in this case Verstappen is clearly on track and Leclerc is moving into that said space.  Ypu can't blame the driver at the front for that. 

[ensign14]

Sadly, this has been going on for a long time. Vettel was notorious for it, and I warned it would cause an accident sooner or later, which it did. There was a time to nip this in the bud, and that time came and went many years ago.

This was a worse accident...exactly the same thing but FIArrari wasn't interested.

 

[DW46]

I remember it as the Schumacher Swerve.


Edit.

Singapore 2017 is one of the finest examples this going completely wrong.

The Poundland equivalent of the Schumi Chop.

[YamahaV10]

I've never considered this an issue, seems the drivers don't either, Leclerc had no issues with Verstappen's move in Austin.

 

The racing at the start would be better if moving more than a car width was illegal

[PlatenGlass]

Same rules apply - the white line. Leclerc is still on track.

Does that picture give the furthest point of the chop?

[aportinga]

 Most starts these days end up looking like this (see the picture) Whoever gets the marginal lead just literally slams the door until the opposing car is into the grass kicking up dust or in the marbles and wall. They all do it. It looks bush league and I don't really see how it is racing. 

 

Now a lot of ppl oppose regulating more what the drivers can do. But what if the pit lane and the painted space around the walls was not designated racing space ? The painted line is already there. I think it would improve the racing at the start. The drag race is the drag race. Whoever gets the lead cannot cut other cars below the pit lane or into the wall paint. If they do, they have to give the position up to the car they did it to. Wouldn't this be better ? It would lead to closer racing at the start. 

 

 

I think that move from Max was dangerous and he should have been given a 5 sec penalty. Had this been a wet start, the Ferrari could have hit that paint and slid into a barrier - possibly harming the driver but for sure costing the team a good deal of time and resources to repair the car.

 

I'm a Max fan but he needs to curb his competitive nature in these cases. He's already won the WDC and the WCC is over as well. There is no way he's not going to get the place back on the straight on the next lap. This was just un-necessary.

[bibliophagos]

I think that move from Max was dangerous and he should have been given a 5 sec penalty. Had this been a wet start, the Ferrari could have hit that paint and slid into a barrier - possibly harming the driver but for sure costing the team a good deal of time and resources to repair the car.

 

I'm a Max fan but he needs to curb his competitive nature in these cases. He's already won the WDC and the WCC is over as well. There is no way he's not going to get the place back on the straight on the next lap. This was just un-necessary.

I see a lot of this, and I really don't get it. I've rewatched the start multiple times from Leclercs onboard, and at no point in time there's any part of his car alongside Verstappens car. Leclerc chose to drive there, he could have gone for the other side, but he made his mind up to get the inside of the corner, to the extent that he was willing to drive off the track. This is not dangerous driving from Verstappen. Leclerc wasn't pushed, he could've turned the steering wheel right, because there was no car there.

 

I get that it looks a bit iffy on that picture, but there's really nothing the see here.

[Bliman]

I see a lot of this, and I really don't get it. I've rewatched the start multiple times from Leclercs onboard, and at no point in time there's any part of his car alongside Verstappens car. Leclerc chose to drive there, he could have gone for the other side, but he made his mind up to get the inside of the corner, to the extent that he was willing to drive off the track. This is not dangerous driving from Verstappen. Leclerc wasn't pushed, he could've turned the steering wheel right, because there was no car there.

 

I get that it looks a bit iffy on that picture, but there's really nothing the see here.

Naturally he goes to the inside. The first corner goes to the left.

[bibliophagos]

Naturally he goes to the inside. The first corner goes to the left.

Yes, and how is that on Verstappen that he chooses to drive off the track?

[Bliman]

Yes, and how is that on Verstappen that he chooses to drive off the track?

I didn't say that at all.

[ensign14]

 

I'm a Max fan but he needs to curb his competitive nature in these cases. He's already won the WDC and the WCC is over as well. There is no way he's not going to get the place back on the straight on the next lap. This was just un-necessary.

I find it intriguing that Leclerc and Hamilton are Verstappen's two main victims.  He obviously knows they are the two biggest threats.

[Primo]

I think that move .... Had this been a wet start...

Well, it wasn't.

[JimmyClark]

The racing at the start would be better if moving more than a car width was illegal

Nah, not more regs please. And the first ten laps would just be drivers bleating on the radio asking for penalties over mm of space.

Edited by JimmyClark, 26 October 2023 - 15:02.

[Ruudbackus]

Even Leclerc stated he would have done exactly the same: 

 

When asked by Motorsport.com if he thought Verstappen’s start defence was acceptable in the post-sprint race press conference, Leclerc replied: “To be honest, I would’ve done exactly the same if I was in his position.

“It’s on the limit, but as I’ve always said in the past, that’s the way I like to fight. So today didn’t play my way, but that’s fine. It’s part of racing and I’m happy with it.”

[krea]

Even Leclerc stated he would have done exactly the same: 

 

When asked by Motorsport.com if he thought Verstappen’s start defence was acceptable in the post-sprint race press conference, Leclerc replied: “To be honest, I would’ve done exactly the same if I was in his position.

“It’s on the limit, but as I’ve always said in the past, that’s the way I like to fight. So today didn’t play my way, but that’s fine. It’s part of racing and I’m happy with it.”

 

I mean Hamilton just did the same at the start of the actual race. Like this is kinda more a Verstappen problem than a racing problem for some people. 

[ARTGP]

Edited by ARTGP, 26 October 2023 - 15:55.

[DW46]

I see a lot of this, and I really don't get it. I've rewatched the start multiple times from Leclercs onboard, and at no point in time there's any part of his car alongside Verstappens car. Leclerc chose to drive there, he could have gone for the other side, but he made his mind up to get the inside of the corner, to the extent that he was willing to drive off the track. This is not dangerous driving from Verstappen. Leclerc wasn't pushed, he could've turned the steering wheel right, because there was no car there.

I get that it looks a bit iffy on that picture, but there's really nothing the see here.

Charles was just trying something different, it just didn’t work. Nothing wrong with the chop.

[DW46]

I find it intriguing that Leclerc and Hamilton are Verstappen's two main victims. He obviously knows they are the two biggest threats.

Agreed, wonder how much of his approach has come from Jos.

[JeanAlesi27]

Non issue to me and the suggestion "But what if the pit lane and the painted space around the walls was not designated racing space ? " Doesn't solve anything, as in this case Verstappen is clearly on track and Leclerc is moving into that said space.  Ypu can't blame the driver at the front for that. 

 

I think this is one of the most common mistakes in judging what is acceptable..  A car in front without the other alongside is perfectly FINE.  Charlie Whiting (RIP) cleared that up of few occasions..

[masa90]

Shame that this was really not stopped in time. This was Michaels specialty (this is coming from a big fan of his) and just like they should, the newer generation takes all the advantages they can from the older generation.

[Peeko]

Mansell did the chop long before Schumacher.

[krea]

The joke is that instead of moving to the left he could have used the entire space on the right side and Verstappen couldn't have done anything but Austin is a special case because the inside is so much better than the start literally becomes a race to that inside line. 

[flyboym3]

This still is taken at a different time to what the OP/autosport had shown in their article by reference of the gap to the white line so its misleading.

[ARTGP]

This still is taken at a different time to what the OP/autosport had shown in their article by reference of the gap to the white line so its misleading.

 

 

[WonderboyF1]

It’s called racing.

[cpbell]

It’s as old as time.

Is it heck.

[flyboym3]

Thanks, yeah nothing wrong with this move here.