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LVGP, Verstappen on Leclerc at T1 Lap 1... Why was he not asked to give the place back? [edited]


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#1 RekF1

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Posted 19 November 2023 - 23:27

Things and stuff.

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#2 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 19 November 2023 - 23:54

I am also interested in why wasn't Alonso investigated for the mess he created in T1..



#3 Heyli

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 00:06

https://racingnews36...-back-positions

 

"New F1 Race Director Niels Wittich has revealed that Race Control will no longer advise teams to tell their drivers to return any positions they may have gained by exceeding track limits."



#4 romaincrouton

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 00:07

Well looking at the hash most drivers made of that corner I’d call in more of a racing incident than anything malicious, both Charles and Max left their foot in too long. Max probably longer.

But as the penalty showed, it’s a risk worth taking. As a driver you’re stupid not to do this right now.

#5 Primo

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 00:23

Well looking at the hash most drivers made of that corner I’d call in more of a racing incident than anything malicious, both Charles and Max left their foot in too long. Max probably longer.

But as the penalty showed, it’s a risk worth taking. As a driver you’re stupid not to do this right now.

It is a risk worth taking and as it turned out, the gamble that RBR made could have been very costly and it was one of their few strategic errors they've done this season. The curious thing is that when Max was 2.5 seconds ahead they were confident he could pull that out to 5+ seconds before the pit stops. He could not and he cooked his tires trying. If they really thought he has that speed, giving back the position would have been a much safer option. They also delivered wrong information to Verstappen "you were ahead at the apex", something they could not possibly believe themselves. They got lucky with the SC, otherwise the 5s penalty would indeed have hurt him at an appropriate amount.



#6 jonklug

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 02:25

I too would like for the drivers to be made to give the place back immediately when something like this happen. As to the move being malicious, I realize some people dislike Max and whatever you say they won't have it, but looking at the on-board, Verstappen being on the dirty side and the tires being cold and the turn quite slippery, I think it's obvious it wasn't intentional. Glad they didn't touch. 



#7 Myrvold

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 04:08

https://racingnews36...-back-positions

 

"New F1 Race Director Niels Wittich has revealed that Race Control will no longer advise teams to tell their drivers to return any positions they may have gained by exceeding track limits."

 

Which is a good thing. The race director should never have had that power to begin with.



#8 baddog

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 04:14

The current approach is better, they get a penalty not advice. However the penalty is insufficient.



#9 pup

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 05:07

I miss the days of drive throughs. Those were real penalties.

#10 JL14

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 05:38

I miss the days of drive throughs. Those were real penalties.

This. And that penalties have to be taken within 3 laps of getting them.

 

For not giving the place back by themselves, the standard penalty should (at least) be 5 second penalty AND giving the place back afterall. 



#11 LolaB0860

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 06:11

Give place(s) back, drive through, stop and go, stop and hold for x seconds, and DSQ should be the only in-race penalties available.

Edited by LolaB0860, 20 November 2023 - 06:12.


#12 chrcol

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 07:24

Well looking at the hash most drivers made of that corner I’d call in more of a racing incident than anything malicious, both Charles and Max left their foot in too long. Max probably longer.

But as the penalty showed, it’s a risk worth taking. As a driver you’re stupid not to do this right now.

Alonso was sliding before he span, its clear he lost control.

 

However Max had no sliding and so it was far less clear, he has done this before as well forcing other drivers off track, so I think the penalty was right personally.

 

I agree with your point with the 5 sec rule it was worth doing it and worth not giving the place back.



#13 kumo7

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 07:51

This. And that penalties have to be taken within 3 laps of getting them.

For not giving the place back by themselves, the standard penalty should (at least) be 5 second penalty AND giving the place back afterall.

5sec does nothing.

Edited by kumo7, 20 November 2023 - 07:51.


#14 Kao18

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 08:13

Alonso was sliding before he span, its clear he lost control.

However Max had no sliding and so it was far less clear, he has done this before as well forcing other drivers off track, so I think the penalty was right personally.

I agree with your point with the 5 sec rule it was worth doing it and worth not giving the place back.


They all do it, unintentionally and intentionally, stop spinning this narrative its only Max. Lewis did it to him at the start in T1 in Austin for instance. Normally its not even looked at lap 1 and they mostly get away with it.

#15 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 08:23

Alonso was sliding before he span, its clear he lost control.

However Max had no sliding and so it was far less clear, he has done this before as well forcing other drivers off track, so I think the penalty was right personally.

I agree with your point with the 5 sec rule it was worth doing it and worth not giving the place back.

Lost control or not - it should be a penalty.
Max is not the only driver that does this - Lewis does it too.
Forget T1 L1 he did it to Russel at Suzuka.

#16 keeppari

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 08:31

I don't understand why such "overtakes" are allowed to stand. Divebomb on the inside, slide off the track and force another car off the track as well. Playstation game driving standards.

I can just about stomach the turn 1 incidents where the car on the outside is crowded off track. Not making the corner yourself and gaining a place is just idiotic.

#17 Heyli

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 08:33

I don't understand why such "overtakes" are allowed to stand. Divebomb on the inside, slide off the track and force another car off the track as well. Playstation game driving standards.

I can just about stomach the turn 1 incidents where the car on the outside is crowded off track. Not making the corner yourself and gaining a place is just idiotic.

They're not allowed to stand... That's why Verstappen got a penalty for it? 



#18 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 08:36

The incentives are all off.

It shouldn’t really be a case of ”give the position back”. That imolies that the worst-case scenario when going for a lunge is pretty much a return to as it would have been anyway.

Thus, it should be something more akin to a drive through penalty, or a penalty of 15 seconds

#19 Ivanhoe

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 08:40

I think there are two offences, crowding a driver off track and gaining a lasting advantage when rejoining the track.



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#20 Heyli

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 08:40

I dont know, we still want drivers to go for Risky overtakes, no? Intentional dangerous behaviour (pushing someone off on a straight or something, or a brake test) should be penalized more heavily. But I dont think we should penalise a genuine overtake attempt going slightly wrong too heavily tbh... 



#21 Beri

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 08:41

Ive said it before on another thread. But it fits well here. Im still convinced that Verstappen did it deliberately and that it is becoming a trend:

 


That first corner incident of Leclerc and Verstappen show what's wrong with the current way of penalizing drivers. It was a deliberate action by Verstappen, he knew it would become a 5 second penalty and he accepted it as soon as he stepped on that brake pedal.
Drivers are taking the possible outcome of a penalty already into consideration. And this should stop. The time penalties should be abandoned and all time penalties should be converted to either a drive through or a stop and go penalty. That way, drivers will not take such actions into consideration anymore.
At least, if you keep the time penalty as FIA, then there should be a designated area in the pitlane where the penalty is served. Not at your own spot in the pitlane.


#22 Heyli

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 08:46

He is not stupid. If he would have stayed on track, he most likely wouldnt have received a penalty (as standard crowding is generally accepted, right or wrong). It's just silly to state that he intentionally ran himself off the circuit just to get a penalty. For what reason exactly, what's the benefit of that over staying on track? 



#23 Ivanhoe

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 08:52

He is not stupid. If he would have stayed on track, he most likely wouldnt have received a penalty (as standard crowding is generally accepted, right or wrong). It's just silly to state that he intentionally ran himself off the circuit just to get a penalty. For what reason exactly, what's the benefit of that over staying on track? 

To stay on track he would have to reduce his speed and would have lost his position to Leclerc who was carrying more speed into turn 1 because he was on the outside and clean side of the track. 



#24 JimmyClark

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 08:55

As I said in the race thread, most of the field struggled to make the corner. Max going wide actually probably averted a bigger incident - Fernando basically took the corner the same way, but tried to keep it on the track and spun and caused a lot of chaos.

Same mistake, but the driver who dealt with it better seemed to get a penalty.

The track with filthy slippery with all that oil, which all the drivers corroborated.

However, to be safe Max should probably have given the place back for optics. If they were confident of getting the 5s gap they should have been confident of getting the overtake done again.

Edited by JimmyClark, 20 November 2023 - 08:55.


#25 Heyli

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 08:57

To stay on track he would have to reduce his speed and would have lost his position to Leclerc who was carrying more speed into turn 1 because he was on the outside and clean side of the track. 

He could have still pushed him off whilst staying on track himself. 



#26 Clatter

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 08:59

I am also interested in why wasn't Alonso investigated for the mess he created in T1..


Are you suggesting he did it on purpose?

#27 Ivanhoe

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 09:00

He could have still pushed him off whilst staying on track himself. 

Yeah, but he would probably be P2 in that scenario.



#28 Clatter

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 09:02

https://racingnews36...-back-positions

"New F1 Race Director Niels Wittich has revealed that Race Control will no longer advise teams to tell their drivers to return any positions they may have gained by exceeding track limits."


I think that is fair enough, but the penalty for not voluntarily giving it back has to be much harsher. 5 seconds is an incentive to pass a car illegally.

#29 Ruudbackus

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 09:07

Leclerc said he knew there was less grip on the inside so he already mitigated, Verstappen said he had less grip then he thought, the whole field basically said it and yet a few keep on hammering on here that it was deliberate. The Max antibias is strongly soemtimes on this board. And I can understand he isn't likable and that in his early years he did a lot of silly stuff, but he really cleaned up his racing after 2021.



#30 Ruudbackus

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 09:09

As I said in the race thread, most of the field struggled to make the corner. Max going wide actually probably averted a bigger incident - Fernando basically took the corner the same way, but tried to keep it on the track and spun and caused a lot of chaos.

Same mistake, but the driver who dealt with it better seemed to get a penalty.

The track with filthy slippery with all that oil, which all the drivers corroborated.

However, to be safe Max should probably have given the place back for optics. If they were confident of getting the 5s gap they should have been confident of getting the overtake done again.

Agree to the last part and to me its odd redbull on the radio stated they thought that he was ahead, because he never was (that was clear from onboards and replays). There they should have order him to return the position. 



#31 pRy

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 09:10

Yeah if this were a title decider race then you'd have more reason to suspect Max was playing games but he's driving a car that's in a different league at the moment. He probably enjoys falling back just so he has something to do.

#32 baddog

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 09:14

I don't for a moment think it was deliberate.. but the decision not to give the place back WAS. The team calculated it was better to take the penalty they knew was coming.

 

This happening over and over is a huge red flag that the penalties aren't enough. Time to convert it to a stop-go. Amazing how quick the places would be given back then eh?



#33 Ruudbackus

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 09:15

Ive said it before on another thread. But it fits well here. Im still convinced that Verstappen did it deliberately and that it is becoming a trend:

 

Looking at the qouted post I do think it is deliberate he didn't give the position back btw. But more from redbull then himself. Like he said afterwards he didn't think the penalty was just in the heat of the moment but after looking back he could fully agree with it. 



#34 Lights

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 09:24

Max going wide actually probably averted a bigger incident - Fernando basically took the corner the same way, but tried to keep it on the track and spun and caused a lot of chaos.

Same mistake, but the driver who dealt with it better seemed to get a penalty.
 

 

I'd actually argue that both Verstappen and Alonso dealt with it in the best way considering their situation. Maybe part of that is hindsight, but still.

 

Max had no one in front of him, only Leclerc alongside. Alonso had Albon and Gasly right in front of him so doing what Max did would've ended up like Bottas' bowling in Hungary 2021.

 

To me it actually seems like Alonso realised he was on course to do so and in an attempt to avoid that he had a small lockup and spun.

 

This might have looked chaotic but it did save Albon and Gasly. It instead resulted in damage for Bottas and Perez but everyone could continue and only Bottas was terminally affected.

 

Had Alonso not spun the total damage tally would've likely been much higher with potentially 3 DNFs.



#35 mhno1f

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 09:26

https://racingnews36...-back-positions

 

"New F1 Race Director Niels Wittich has revealed that Race Control will no longer advise teams to tell their drivers to return any positions they may have gained by exceeding track limits."

I don't understand the reason for changing it. Ok, at the start it can be chaotic - but for isolated incidents like Max vs Charles, and when the "injured" party is sill behind the offender - by far the most appropriate action is to swap positions. All it takes is for an official with intelligence (yeah I know it's asking a lot!), to quickly let the team know that they need to swap positions back otherwise there's a good chance when the stewards take a proper look you'll end up with a penalty. And if the team doesn't listen - make it a harsher penalty. 

 



#36 cbo

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 09:40

Giving the place back only makes sense if the decision can be made immediately. Otherwise, the race may have developed in a way that makes giving the place back impractical or unfair.

Let's say the Leclerc had spun out shortly after the turn 1 incident and had ended up in 20th place. Once the stewards have made their mind up, should Verstappen drop back to 19th and give the place back? Or give the place back to the driver in 2nd place even though he had nothing to do with the incident?

Giving the place back is only an option for a driver, who knows he has screwed up and want to avoid a penalty.

The penalty should perhaps be harder, like a drive through. But it has to be a penalty that can be applied in a meaningfully way once the stewards have made their decision.

#37 baddog

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 09:46

I don't understand the reason for changing it. Ok, at the start it can be chaotic - but for isolated incidents like Max vs Charles, and when the "injured" party is sill behind the offender - by far the most appropriate action is to swap positions. All it takes is for an official with intelligence (yeah I know it's asking a lot!), to quickly let the team know that they need to swap positions back otherwise there's a good chance when the stewards take a proper look you'll end up with a penalty. And if the team doesn't listen - make it a harsher penalty. 

 

 

I think you don't quite understand. What's changed is that the team and driver have to behave appropriately or get penalised. The problem before was that by giving warnings, no-one ever would give a place back themselves, they would just overtake off track and wait to see if they got told to swap back. i.e. the default position is do as you please, no risk of a penalty because you wont get one you will get an instruction to swap back at worst. It encouraged bad driving and put too much responsibility on officials to be the teams conscience, and also meant they ended up in conversations with team principals, being pressured. The whole topic of that is a much wider one of course. This way, no chat, no offer to let you off if you swap, you didn't do the right thing you are penalised. 

 

Problem now is that the penalty is weak enough that divers and teams absolutely do this tactically.


Edited by baddog, 20 November 2023 - 09:48.


#38 Primo

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 09:47

I miss the days of drive throughs. Those were real penalties.

No, they were race-ending, terrible and just as now, stewards could make the wrong calls. But yes, 5s is too little, it should be 10. 10s is quite a lot.



#39 keeppari

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 10:01

They're not allowed to stand... That's why Verstappen got a penalty for it?

Overtake was allowed to stand and the 5 sec penalty was for pushing Leclerc off track.

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#40 Heyli

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 10:10

Overtake was allowed to stand and the 5 sec penalty was for pushing Leclerc off track.

Which resulted in the overtake. If he would have let LeClerc by again immediately, he would not have received a penalty. 



#41 keeppari

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 10:22

Which resulted in the overtake. If he would have let LeClerc by again immediately, he would not have received a penalty.

That is irrelevant. You can enter a corner ahead, force an overtaking car off track on the outside and emerge ahead while staying on the track yourself and get the same 5 secs for forcing another car off the track.

I don't understand why it is the same 5 seconds when divebombing without any intention on staying between the white lines. The overtake only took place because Max ran off the track and could keep Leclerc on the outside.

#42 Brian60

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 10:46

I too would like for the drivers to be made to give the place back immediately when something like this happen. As to the move being malicious, I realize some people dislike Max and whatever you say they won't have it, but looking at the on-board, Verstappen being on the dirty side and the tires being cold and the turn quite slippery, I think it's obvious it wasn't intentional. Glad they didn't touch. 

But Max, like you and everyone else knew the track was cold, dirty and slippy into the corner. Yet he made the move anyway and as usual the result is the opponent gets pushed wide and he gains the place - just like he's done 100's of times before. It's the way he's races since day 1 of entering F1, up the inside and force the opponent to give up the place or we both go off! As the opponent you can't even brake later and turn in because he copies you move for move, hence the 'we both end in the dirt' remark. Once he gets he even gets a sniff of the inside he goes for it no matter the consequences..



#43 SenorSjon

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 10:55

It is a risk worth taking and as it turned out, the gamble that RBR made could have been very costly and it was one of their few strategic errors they've done this season. The curious thing is that when Max was 2.5 seconds ahead they were confident he could pull that out to 5+ seconds before the pit stops. He could not and he cooked his tires trying. If they really thought he has that speed, giving back the position would have been a much safer option. They also delivered wrong information to Verstappen "you were ahead at the apex", something they could not possibly believe themselves. They got lucky with the SC, otherwise the 5s penalty would indeed have hurt him at an appropriate amount.

 

The tires grained for Verstappen, probably due to having a second hot/cold cycle with the SC, that didn't happen on Friday practice so it was unexpected the Mediums gave in. Otherwise he would have been long gone. He gained 4-5s on Perez/Leclerc quite quickly.

 

Alonso was sliding before he span, its clear he lost control.

 

However Max had no sliding and so it was far less clear, he has done this before as well forcing other drivers off track, so I think the penalty was right personally.

 

I agree with your point with the 5 sec rule it was worth doing it and worth not giving the place back.

 

He was, onboard replays later shown saw him correcting, but he had to straighten the wheel otherwise he would Alonso himself.

 

To stay on track he would have to reduce his speed and would have lost his position to Leclerc who was carrying more speed into turn 1 because he was on the outside and clean side of the track. 

 

Or Leclerc would have been offtrack while overtaking. That would have led to a discussion or two.

 

I don't for a moment think it was deliberate.. but the decision not to give the place back WAS. The team calculated it was better to take the penalty they knew was coming.

 

This happening over and over is a huge red flag that the penalties aren't enough. Time to convert it to a stop-go. Amazing how quick the places would be given back then eh?

 

Stop/go for sometimes a bit stupid penalty? When did we last see a DT penalty? Just do a -1/-3 position as a penalty as extra tool for the stewards in the shed. It is a bit pointless around track limits, but it has its uses in on track battles. That way you don't have to let the same car pass if it has fallen further back.



#44 VamosVamos

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 10:59

To stay on track he would have to reduce his speed and would have lost his position to Leclerc who was carrying more speed into turn 1 because he was on the outside and clean side of the track.

As posted on the race thread, from Leclerc’s onboard, once he catches the snap on initial turn-in and settles the car to take the corner he is here:

5430-D9-E5-67-B7-4105-98-B7-E713-F2-B70-

If Verstappen could keep it on track he would’ve been clear in P1, but he couldn’t as like Leclerc, once he turned in he went straight on.

As to why RB didn’t tell him to return it, I guess they saw the same, saw the 2s early gap and decided even a penalty would be worth taking.

*edit* to add the big snap he catches on intial turn in

FEAA7-C21-E2-E7-4045-BDFA-B3-E9-A0333-F7

Verstappen catching his snap on turn in

D1-B337-DB-277-F-496-A-BB48-4-DFEE97-CAE

Edited by VamosVamos, 20 November 2023 - 11:06.


#45 Spillage

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 11:03

I thought 5s was proportionate given it looked like an innocent driving mistake similar to the ones committed by Alonso and Sainz, both of whom escaped sanction altogether.

The five second penalty is usually the one imposed when a driver overtakes off track and doesn't give the place back. It probably isn't harsh enough to properly discourage it, but I took from that that if he had given it back he wouldn't have been penalised.

#46 bibliophagos

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 11:08

But Max, like you and everyone else knew the track was cold, dirty and slippy into the corner. Yet he made the move anyway and as usual the result is the opponent gets pushed wide and he gains the place - just like he's done 100's of times before. It's the way he's races since day 1 of entering F1, up the inside and force the opponent to give up the place or we both go off! As the opponent you can't even brake later and turn in because he copies you move for move, hence the 'we both end in the dirt' remark. Once he gets he even gets a sniff of the inside he goes for it no matter the consequences..

You're literally describing Hamiltons go-to move when starting at the front, ask Rosberg. Don't hear you complain about it when he does it....

 

By the way: penalty was correct (with regards to current stewarding), it's a bit weird he was the only one to get one in that corner though.



#47 Gareth

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 11:33

The current approach is better, they get a penalty not advice. However the penalty is insufficient.

Disagree. "Hand the spot back" was a much more appropriate penalty as it removes the advantage gained. 5s could be a killer (if, say, the race ends under an SC) or well worth taking (like Russell recently in Italy iirc).



#48 SteveHam

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 11:50

Disagree. "Hand the spot back" was a much more appropriate penalty as it removes the advantage gained. 5s could be a killer (if, say, the race ends under an SC) or well worth taking (like Russell recently in Italy iirc).


Bahrain 2021 springs to mind when Max couldn’t overtake Lewis on newer tyres towards the end of the race and when he did overtake it was completely off track, Max argued they should have let him by because he could have easily extended the gap he needed after a time penalty was applied which is why he was instructed by the stewards to hand the place back immediately.

Just taking a time penalty that has zero effect is ridiculous and the stewards should has instructed he gave the place back straight away as it was an obvious decision.

#49 Ivanhoe

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 12:00

Ironicallly this probably was one of the few occassions where a 5 second penalty was harsher than giving the place back.



#50 TheFish

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Posted 20 November 2023 - 12:24

Ironicallly this probably was one of the few occassions where a 5 second penalty was harsher than giving the place back.

Indeed. However, if a team needs to decide whether it's worth it to take the penalty or not, then the penalty is not harsh enough, even if on this occasion he and the team got it wrong.

 

If he thought that he'd get a drive through if he didn't give the place back within 10 seconds, he'd have done it in an instant.