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Paul Stoddart's F1 auctions


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#1 matherto

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 23:32

Does anyone have a list of the cars he sold chassis number wise?

 

I've got a list of the Tyrrell's (I think) but there were around 40 cars sold between 2002 and 2005.

 

Tried searching on here, ten-tenths, on google and anywhere else I can think of but not really returning too much in terms of results that I haven't already seen.

 

Any help would be massively appreciated.

 

 



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#2 funformula

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Posted 28 November 2023 - 08:20

Hi matherto,

I would be very much interested in your list of the Tyrrell chassis numbers.

I also seem to recall a Tyrrell 025 with a cut out section on the left side of the monocoque. If this was a genuine race used chassis or a mock-up built at a later stage by Stoddart I don´t know.



#3 matherto

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Posted 10 December 2023 - 20:39

Hi FF, these are the Tyrrell's I had found.

 

015-5 Stoddart's Minardi auction 2004, bare tub.

016-3 Stoddart's Minardi auction 2004, bare tub.

019-2 Stoddart's Minardi auction 2004

023-3 Stoddart's Minardi auction 2004

 

019-6 Stoddart's Minardi auction 2005

023-2 Stoddart's Minardi auction 2005

024-2 Stoddart's Minardi auction 2005

024-4 Stoddart's Minardi auction 2005

024-6 Stoddart's Minardi auction 2005

025-2 Stoddart's Minardi auction 2005

025-4 Stoddart's Minardi auction 2005

025-6 Stoddart's Minardi auction 2005



#4 funformula

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Posted 10 December 2023 - 21:02

I wished I´d copied pictures of the cars and chassis numbers back then, now I had to rely on my memory.

Maybe someone here on TNF had saved photos and more information from these auctions?

The auction house Bache-Treharne who held the auctions doesn´t exist anymore so unfortunately no more information from there.

 

In your list you mention Tyrrell 024-6, a chassis that shouldn´t exist as to the best of my knowledge only five had been built. So probably a typo?



#5 matherto

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Posted 11 December 2023 - 23:51

Googling variations of 'Stoddart auction Minardi, 2004, 2005, F1' will get you some photos at the very least.

 

I copied that list from the 'missing Tyrrells' thread on here and then verified it through any listing I could find from in period (and promptly forgot to save them as links!) so perhaps they would know more in that thread but perhaps it was a tub and never built into a full car?

 

Know of course you're still looking for more information about the one you have.

 

https://web.archive....ay2Vehicles.asp

 

The information from the archived auction listing suggests 6 was a fully built car and it has it's own section in the gallery (of course pictures don't work)


Edited by matherto, 12 December 2023 - 20:28.


#6 matherto

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Posted 11 December 2023 - 23:57

https://www.unracedf...ke-tyrrell-025/

 

This might be of some use too.



#7 Gary C

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Posted 12 December 2023 - 15:04

......and I wonder where all those cars are now. ?

#8 matherto

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Posted 12 December 2023 - 20:14

......and I wonder where all those cars are now. ?

 

I'm trying my best to track everything from 89-05. It was 89-99 but I've expanded to 05 recently to complete the V10 era.

 

https://docs.google....RFGo/edit#gid=0

 

I've got the data for which chassis was used at which race, I just need to finish it for the 00-05 era then work from that.

 

Any help from anyone completing it or just adding to it (cause I imagine it'll never be complete unless I get help from the likes of McLaren, Williams, etc or the owners) would be greatly appreciated.



#9 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 December 2023 - 20:55

Good work matherto. I’m glad to know someone is working on that period

#10 funformula

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Posted 13 December 2023 - 20:29

I'm trying my best to track everything from 89-05. It was 89-99 but I've expanded to 05 recently to complete the V10 era.

 

https://docs.google....RFGo/edit#gid=0

 

I've got the data for which chassis was used at which race, I just need to finish it for the 00-05 era then work from that.

 

Any help from anyone completing it or just adding to it (cause I imagine it'll never be complete unless I get help from the likes of McLaren, Williams, etc or the owners) would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Hi matherto, I just went through your list of cars... what an amount of research work this must be  :up:

 

Regarding the Tyrrell 024, you state chassis 03 as show car in Minardi 2003 livery which is what my car was when I aquired it.

Did the ad on motorsporttrader tell the chassis number or where did you get the information from?

Regarding the 024 in Japan on your list (chassis 05). About 2 years ago I got a friend asking his contact in Japan to have a look at the chassis number of the car in the Rocky Restaurant, he came back with the information that it´s chassis 04.


Edited by funformula, 13 December 2023 - 20:46.


#11 Nathan

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Posted 13 December 2023 - 21:58

I'm trying my best to track everything from 89-05. It was 89-99 but I've expanded to 05 recently to complete the V10 era.

 

https://docs.google....RFGo/edit#gid=0

 

 

Wow.... :up:  :up:



#12 matherto

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Posted 14 December 2023 - 01:04

Hi matherto, I just went through your list of cars... what an amount of research work this must be  :up:

 

Regarding the Tyrrell 024, you state chassis 03 as show car in Minardi 2003 livery which is what my car was when I aquired it.

Did the ad on motorsporttrader tell the chassis number or where did you get the information from?

Regarding the 024 in Japan on your list (chassis 05). About 2 years ago I got a friend asking his contact in Japan to have a look at the chassis number of the car in the Rocky Restaurant, he came back with the information that it´s chassis 04.

 

Hi mate. It's certainly a lot but it's fun trying to piece things together.

Basically the way it's laid out is if the chassis number has a bracket round it then it's one that I know raced but I don't have accurate info to tie a specific picture or bit of info to it and if it doesn't then I've seen concrete proof that the specific car is that chassis. It's not a perfectly accurate description because I've sort of scattergunned some of it but by and large that's the case. Originally I just put information in based on the google searches and then tried to make sure that it wasn't a repeat of the same car but then a very kind gentleman who's on these forums, Henk - provided me with the information about how many chassis were made and which were raced where so when I found that out I added the chassis numbers in and tried to tie any information I already had to the numbers.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to exactly what's in the 024 chassis' - the one we both know of at Rocky Auto is perhaps the only one besides your own that I've been able to find on the web and genuinely thank you a million for the info from your contact - I've tried a few western bloggers/instagrammers/youtubers based in Japan asking if they had been and seen it in person but never had any luck getting info so that's amazing to find out.

We will eventually get to the bottom of your car I'm sure of it, maybe we need to corner Paul Stoddart one day and beat it out of him (not seriously  :lol: ). Some ex-European Aviation/Tyrrell/etc guys must know what the score is.



#13 Gary C

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Posted 14 December 2023 - 10:23

....I know at least a couple of ex-F1 guys who WOULD like to give Stoddart a beating...

#14 funformula

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Posted 14 December 2023 - 18:38

I wouldn't pay too much attention to exactly what's in the 024 chassis' - the one we both know of at Rocky Auto is perhaps the only one besides your own that I've been able to find on the web and genuinely thank you a million for the info from your contact - I've tried a few western bloggers/instagrammers/youtubers based in Japan asking if they had been and seen it in person but never had any luck getting info so that's amazing to find out.

We will eventually get to the bottom of your car I'm sure of it, maybe we need to corner Paul Stoddart one day and beat it out of him (not seriously  :lol: ). Some ex-European Aviation/Tyrrell/etc guys must know what the score is.

 

Unfortunately it´s not that simple and straightforward as you even can´t trust what a chassis plate seems to tell you about the origins of a car. (I´m sure Allen Brown can write a book about that subject  :stoned: )

 

I don´t want to bore anybody here but let me try to explain what I mean: I´d been told that the chassis number of the Tyrrell 024 in Japan (the Rocky car) is 04. I have no photographic proof for that but I don´t have reason not to trust that information, but... there is a problem.

If you dig deeper into the details of the several Tyrrell 024 cars you will find some differences between them. What I found out is that chassis 01, 02 & 03 are similar in a certain area while chassis 04 & 05 are a little different. You had to have a look on the top edge of the monocoque head surrounding, chassis 01 - 03 have a kind of sharp top edge while 04 & 05 have a thicker frame. I add two pictures for better understanding showing Katayama in chassis 01 and Salo in chassis 04

 

 1017721841-LAT-19960519-96MON22.jpg

 

1017680375-COL-19960505-TYRRELL_96_112.j

 

 

I assume that while building chassis 04 & 05 at Tyrrell they used a different mould for that section.

All the later Tyrrell 025 (which shared almost the same monocoque) also had that thicker frame as this was required to fit the tower-wing support.

So therefore I draw the conclusion that any Tyrrell 024 with that "sharp" top frame must be one of the first three chassis built.

 

Now guess what... the Japanese Tyrrell (see picture below) had that "sharp" frame so cannot be chassis 04  :drunk:

You may now get an impression that I go nuts sometimes in that researching process... and there are some more mysteries on my car

 

201905101307102.jpg


Edited by funformula, 14 December 2023 - 18:42.


#15 matherto

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Posted 14 December 2023 - 19:33

I can definitely see the conundrums building up.

Can see what you mean with the cockpit surrounds. Don't think there'd be a rational explanation, they aren't going to rebuild/remould the cockpit mid season are they?

 

I'm hopefully going to Tokyo in 2025 so I'll try my best to get the train/whatever to Rocky but it's a three hour trip.

 

Did Katayama run a narrow cockpit in the same race as Salo used a thick one? Europe, San Marino and Monaco perhaps.

 

AUZ - Ukyo 01, Salo 03

BRA - Ukyo 01, Salo 03

ARG - Ukyo 01, Salo 03

EUR - Ukyo 01, Salo 04

SMR - Ukyo 01, Salo 04

MON - Ukyo 01, Salo 04

ESP - Ukyo 01, Salo 02 (was supposed to race 04)

CDN - Ukyo 01, Salo 02 (was supposed to race 04)

FRA - Ukyo 05, Salo 04

GBR - Ukyo 05, Salo 04

GER - Ukyo 05, Salo 02 (was supposed to race 04)

HUN - Ukyo 05, Salo 04

BEL - Ukyo 05, Salo 02

ITA - Ukyo 05, Salo 02

POR - Ukyo 05, Salo 02

JPN - Ukyo 05, Salo 02

 

There's a tendency for people to own chassis with particular history - local race, best result, most points, last race, etc so maybe there's something to be said for the choice of chassis there but if it was 04 at Rocky Auto they've got a Salo car, I wonder if they know? I'd bet on it being 01 though being an Ukyo car with a thin surround.  


Edited by matherto, 14 December 2023 - 19:48.


#16 funformula

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Posted 14 December 2023 - 20:18

Tyrrell didn´t alter the cockpit surroundings. Searching the internet you will find pictures of Salo racing 024-02 by the end of the saison still with the narrow surrounding.

 

Regarding the Rocky car, it first appeared in Japan in 1997 PIAA livery and with a 025 nose cone. It must´ve been resprayed later to 1996 "Mild Seven" livery. When you have a closer look at the nose cone you will see that it isn´t the correct 1996 version. To me it looks like a "butchered" 1997 nose. The front wing flap is no single piece as it should be for the 024... it´s a two piece part as used on the 025 as it was separated by the unique single keel nose cone.



#17 funformula

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Posted 14 December 2023 - 20:38

Here is a photo of the car in Japan in PIAA livery

 

o0800060011837155811.jpg



#18 matherto

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Posted 14 December 2023 - 22:27

It looks like the left pillar of the nose is further forward than the right on the shot at Rocky, they've definitely messed with it.

I remember seeing the photos of the PIAA car and searching for the auction to see if it had any information but didn't realise they were the same car.

 

Need to get better at needling into the little details, when I was looking at Ferrari chassis' the 640 and 641 have differences in the noses between the various chassis and I hadn't noticed until somoene pointed it out on Ferrarichat and I was dumbfounded that it was right in front of me.

 

Just seen this photo in the Tyrrell Grand Prix group on Flickr - interesting livery to be sure.

 

50750171108_588d566375_b.jpgF1 cars at EFR by edbeartwo, on Flickr

 

https://www.flickr.c...lgrandprixcars/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57717488929073/

 

Wonder if your car is in this album?


Edited by matherto, 15 December 2023 - 00:19.


#19 funformula

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Posted 15 December 2023 - 11:48

WOW :eek:... thanks a lot for these Flickr links, most of these pictures I´d never seen before.

But these photos immediately raised more questions than provided answers, need to double check when I´m at home... more later.



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#20 funformula

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Posted 15 December 2023 - 17:10

 

I also seem to recall a Tyrrell 025 with a cut out section on the left side of the monocoque. If this was a genuine race used chassis or a mock-up built at a later stage by Stoddart I don´t know.

 

matherto  :clap:

thanks to you I now have a photographic proof, I already started to question myself.

Unfortunately I can´t add this picture here but it´s the car on the hydraulic car lift in your Flickr link.

 

BTW in this photo we can see three Tyrrell 024, a white/red (on the car lift in the background), a white/blue on the floor and the above mentioned white in PIAA livery on the car lift in the front. So probably chassis 02, 04 and the mysterious 06?

 

One might say the PIAA car is a 025 but the missing hole at the side of the roll hoop/air intake is the clue to it´s 024 origins.


Edited by funformula, 15 December 2023 - 17:25.


#21 matherto

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Posted 16 December 2023 - 00:13

Keep up the updates with your thoughts!

I'm glad to have helped solve something at least, don't know why I didn't think to look in the group originally but it comes up trumps.

 

I don't know why but I'm leaning towards the car with the red cockpit being 06. If only because there's the one of the lineup photos with two 024 next to each other in normal livery. 06 was never raced so as much as it would be easy to repaint/resticker/etc....it just makes sense in my head  :stoned:



#22 matherto

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Posted 16 December 2023 - 00:23

I can see that hole now, I presume they plugged a laptop into it back in the day?



#23 funformula

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Posted 16 December 2023 - 11:17

I can see that hole now, I presume they plugged a laptop into it back in the day?

 

What I mean is the hole just behind Xena´s butt   ;) (see picture)

All of the Tyrrell 025 had that hole but not the 024. It´s on both sides of the monocoque to enable to pull the tow rope through it. I think this hole was mandatory for the 1997 rules.

It may play a role in identifying my car but let´s keep it simple for the moment otherwise it´s too confusing.

 

 

ae76c09ef9ebc2c50d0b15d7215269cd.jpg



#24 funformula

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Posted 16 December 2023 - 12:20

Keep up the updates with your thoughts!
 

 

OK, you want it, you get it   ;)

Let´s focus on the Tyrrell 024 for now and try to separate the facts from the assumptions.

 

 

Facts:

 

- Tyrrell raced five chassis of the 024 type in 1996, Katayama used chassis 01 and 05 while Salo used the chassis 02, 03 & 04

 

- Chassis 01 was last used at the GP Canada where Katayama had a crash (he spun into the gravel bed, no heavy impact)

 

- Chassis 01 never reappeared at a GP weekend, neither as a race car nor a spare.

 

- The various chassis are a little different, the most obvious is the cockpit frame. Chassis 01, 02 & 03 have a thin frame while 04 & 05 have a thicker one.

 

- At the second Stoddart auction in 2005 there were three 024 up for sale, according to the auction list chassis 02, 04 & 06

 

- We have photographic proof of three cars prepared/stored for that auction, one presented in red/white, one in blue/white, one in PIAA livery with 025 bodywork. (Question: were there any 025 on auction at the second Stoddart auction? If so then the PIAA car might as well been offered as an 025, if not then despite it´s looks it was offered as an 024) Edit: According to matherto Tyrrell 025-02, 04 & 06 were offered at the second auction in 2005. So again another "mystery" chassis as only five 025 were built by Tyrrell.

 

- Tyrrell was short on money in 1996. According to former team members Tyrrell never built show cars, only real race cars, so very unlikely they built a sixth chassis with no intention to use it.

 

- Currently there are two Tyrrell cars known with thin cockpit frame, the Japanese Rocky car and my car.

 

 

 

Assumptions:

 

- chassis 024-01 was taken to create a show car with a cut out left side (the PIAA car at the auction) probably misnumbered as chassis 06

 

- there was a 024 mock up somewhere in the Tyrrell factory used as a template for all sorts of bodywork/suspension fitment (these chassis are normally not built to race spec. I once owned such a mock-up chassis of the Brabham BT60). This mock-up was used to built the "cut-out-monocoque car and was numbered chassis 06

 

- Stoddart built some 024 cars at his premises in Ledbury after he aquired all the Tyrrell stuff (he for sure built the two-seaters based on the Tyrrell 026 and raced some of the Tyrrell 025 at BOSS/historic meetings by himself). But on the other hand why should he do so. It would make some sense to build 025 monocoques as spares for his own race used cars but building additional 024 monocoques??? Not really.


Edited by funformula, 17 December 2023 - 11:21.


#25 funformula

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Posted 17 December 2023 - 10:51

 

Just seen this photo in the Tyrrell Grand Prix group on Flickr - interesting livery to be sure.

 

50750171108_588d566375_b.jpgF1 cars at EFR by edbeartwo, on Flickr

 

https://www.flickr.c...lgrandprixcars/

 

https://www.flickr.c...57717488929073/

 

 

What I found out watching these photos on Flickr is, that the account is belonging to Eddie Marrian.

It seems that he was part of Team Tyrrell at least in 1998, then part of the Honda test team in 1999 at Dallara and later team member at Stoddart´s Minardi F1 outfit.

 

Any chance he might be here on TNF?


Edited by funformula, 17 December 2023 - 11:07.


#26 matherto

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Posted 17 December 2023 - 17:04

https://forums.autos...97-chassis-025/

 

Noticed this FF.



#27 funformula

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Posted 17 December 2023 - 17:49

According to this old thread Tyrrell 025 chassis 02 had a crash at Monaco and was never used again.

 

Thanks to the Flickr photo collection (especially the set with the Benson & Hedges Tyrrell 026) we have proof of all five 025 still in existence when Stoddart acquired the Tyrrell stuff (3x Tyrrell 025 in black, 2x Tyrrell 025 in original white PIAA livery) plus all six 026 built by Tyrrell (3x no.21 livery, 2x no.20 livery, 1x Benson & Hedges)

 

BTW how did you manage to include the Flickr photo in here? It was refused when I tried it.


Edited by funformula, 17 December 2023 - 17:50.


#28 funformula

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Posted 28 December 2023 - 19:16

For slightly more confusion in this subject I post a photo of my car.

 

As you can see all the bodywork, floor etc. is Tyrrell 025 style except the nose cone which is the twin pillar 024 type.

The monocoque is also showing the 025 features as for example the wedges (just on top of the MORSE logo) in front of the sidepods and the oval hole in the roll hoop... but it also had the thin cockpit headrest frame which only the early Tyrrell 024 had but none of the 025.

Another feature which clearly points to 024 origins are the front suspension pick-up points. Although my car was altered to the outboard brackets in 025 style it still has the inboard pocket mounting points as used on the 024.

I have seen photographic proof that on the 025 monocoques these pockets aren´t present and therefore weren´t part of the fabrication/building process, so most likely some slightly altered moulds were used therefore.

 

Of course it´s possible that my car was built at a later stage in the Stoddart factory in Ledbury but why should he build it in 024 spec only to alter it afterwards to fit all the 025 parts? I don´t get the point here, it would´ve been much easier to build it in 025 spec in the first place.

 

My theory being chassis 024-01 (the car that was abandoned after the Canadian GP 1996 and never reappeared at a race track again) that was used as a mock up for the Tyrrell 025 development is probably more plausible?

At least it may explain that it is wearing features of both chassis types.

 

Tyrrell-8.jpg

 

https://i.postimg.cc...J/Tyrrell-8.jpg

 

[url=https://postimg.cc/KRxc7Z2W][img]https://i.postimg.cc...W/Tyrrell-8.jpg

 

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc...J/Tyrrell-8.jpg


Edited by funformula, 28 December 2023 - 20:14.