341 replies to this topic

[AustinF1]

Jarno Zaffelli it is...

 

https://english.elpa...or-section.html

 

Now I am becoming more curious. what could Zaffelli do? Could be exciting.

My man Jarno Zaffelli! ... the guy who fixed Silverstone's bumps, directed the recent work at Spa, and a lot of other good stuff. Good on him. He gives me hope for this track, and that video of the laps there doesn't look half bad either. Who knows ...

 

Saudi Arabia. If it was a proper track, it wouldn't be lined with concrete everywhere.

Canada: although mostly permanent now.

Melbourne: it is a park 11 months a year.

Miami: can't call that a race track on a parking lot and painted harbour.

 

That is 8 with Madrid making it 9 street tracks in 24 races. 

Yes Montreal CGV was built along spectator access walkways for the 1967 World's Fair. On another board they started an interesting discussion yesterday about many dedicated tracks of today that began as something else. As has been mentioned, along with a couple more of the following, Spa began as roads that they closed and raced on, part of which later became a dedicated circuit. Same with Hockenheim, I believe. The Nurburgring/Nordschleiffe has always been a public-use toll road when not closed for racing. Le Mans/Circuit de la Sarthe started on roads and still uses public roads in parts of the circuit. Bathurst began as a park road built so people could see the great views from Mt. Panorama. IIRC Albert Park is a mix of streets and park roads. Silverstone was access roads around a WW2 airfield. Watkins Glen was area roads and streets, including a RR crossing. Suzuka was (and still is?) a Honda test track. Etc, etc ...

I don't understand all the gloom and doom before having a race there. It was the same with Vegas which turned out fine.

It's "fashionable" to be negative I guess. 

Yep. As always, I'll reserve judgement until they race on the track. That strategy has served me well so far.

Edited by AustinF1, 25 January 2024 - 08:15.

[JimmyClark]

In regards to Madrid anyway was it even meant to look industrial? The area is mostly a convention centre area, not an industrial spot.

Am I right in remembering that the proposed New Jersey circuit 10 years ago would have gone right past some sewage works?

[kumo7]

My boy Jarno Zaffelli! ... the guy COTA didn't want to hire to fix their track issues, but who fixed Silverstone's bumps, did the recent work at Spa, and a lot of other good stuff. Good on him. He gives me hope for this track, and that video of the laps there doesn't look half bad either. Who knows ...

 

Yes Montreal CGV was built along spectator access walking paths for the 1967 World's Fair. On another board they started an interesting discussion yesterday about many dedicated tracks of today that began as something else. As has been mentioned, along with a couple more of the following, Spa began as roads that they closed and raced on, part of which later became a dedicated circuit. Same with Hockenheim, I believe. The Nurburgring has always been a public-use toll road. Le Mans/Circuit de la Sarthe started on roads and still uses public roads in areas of the circuit. Bathurst began as a park road built so people could see the great views from Mt. Panorama. IIRC Albert Park is a mix of streets and park roads. Silverstone was access roads around a WW2 airfield. Watkins Glen was area roads and streets, including a RR crossing. Suzuka was (and still is?) a Honda test track. Etc, etc ...

Yep. As always, I'll reserve judgement until they race on the track. That strategy has served me well so far.

 

Zafelli, I thought was the one behind the Zadvoort, isn't he? He leads Dromo, now on F1 Projects.

COTA has its undulating ground, a beautiful setup, too nad the surface soil slip as ground water moves. 

As Zafelli renovates well, who knows what he will do in the future for COTA.

 

I do think Madrid is an important capital city where Formula One will race. From the presentation, it appears that they are very enthusiastic. Never the less form the way they choose to go half-half, I think it is planning to abandon F1 after perhaps five years.

[Beri]

I can see your Miami position, though some parts of the track do use actual roads.

 

However in Melbourne those roads existed long before they were used for racing.

 

The Vegas track was not the issue at hand to me. The mere fact that it is the 3rd race in the States, the reasoning why Vegas would be a good thing and the whole building up and marketing ways of promoting the event were the issues to me. The track itself is nothing special, but it delivered some fine racing. 

 

 

Adelaide was definitely described as a street circuit.

 

As said; I dont remember that.

 

 

My man Jarno Zaffelli! ... the guy who fixed Silverstone's bumps, directed the recent work at Spa, and a lot of other good stuff. Good on him. He gives me hope for this track, and that video of the laps there doesn't look half bad either. Who knows ...

 

[..]

 

You forgot; The man who brought (back) not only 1 banked corner to Formula One. But 2 banked corners. At one circuit! He and Dromo were the ones who rebuild Zandvoort in preparation to hosting the Grand Prix again.

[AustinF1]

Zafelli, I thought was the one behind the Zadvoort, isn't he? He leads Dromo, now on F1 Projects.

COTA has its undulating ground, a beautiful setup, too nad the surface soil slip as ground water moves. 

As Zafelli renovates well, who knows what he will do in the future for COTA.

 

I do think Madrid is an important capital city where Formula One will race. From the presentation, it appears that they are very enthusiastic. Never the less form the way they choose to go half-half, I think it is planning to abandon F1 after perhaps five years.

You're right re: Zaffelli and Zandvoort. Re: COTA I think that ship has sailed. From what I heard, they weren't interested. 

Edited by AustinF1, 25 January 2024 - 18:05.

[Beri]

Zafelli, I thought was the one behind the Zadvoort, isn't he? He leads Dromo, now on F1 Projects.

COTA has its undulating ground, a beautiful setup, too nad the surface soil slip as ground water moves. 

As Zafelli renovates well, who knows what he will do in the future for COTA.

 

I do think Madrid is an important capital city where Formula One will race. From the presentation, it appears that they are very enthusiastic. Never the less form the way they choose to go half-half, I think it is planning to abandon F1 after perhaps five years.

 

Is it? I mean its Madrid and its a capital city. But thats it. When visiting Spain, it has always been the urge to visit the Islands, Barcelona, Sevilla, the Costa's.. But not so much Madrid. And thats not only with me. Because we had a little F1 talk at the coffee corner at work yesterday. And some 15 people pitched in on the subject of Madrid and the Grand Prix. Virtually all hadnt visited Madrid whilst being numerous times in Spain and also all believed Barcelona is the city more famous than Madrid.

From historic stance and political stance; yes Madrid is an important city. But in my opinion, its not that great. Valencia and Barcelona have more to offer in terms of tourist attractions.

[JimmyClark]

Is it? I mean its Madrid and its a capital city. But thats it. When visiting Spain, it has always been the urge to visit the Islands, Barcelona, Sevilla, the Costa's.. But not so much Madrid. And thats not only with me. Because we had a little F1 talk at the coffee corner at work yesterday. And some 15 people pitched in on the subject of Madrid and the Grand Prix. Virtually all hadnt visited Madrid whilst being numerous times in Spain and also all believed Barcelona is the city more famous than Madrid.

From historic stance and political stance; yes Madrid is an important city. But in my opinion, its not that great. Valencia and Barcelona have more to offer in terms of tourist attractions.

 

Madrid is probably one of the most underrated capital cities in Europe, mainly because tourism in Spain is concentrated on these other areas. I think the Spanish government is keen to reverse this, and anything to get one over Cataluna/Barcelona in particular too. 

[Beri]

Madrid is probably one of the most underrated capital cities in Europe, mainly because tourism in Spain is concentrated on these other areas. I think the Spanish government is keen to reverse this, and anything to get one over Cataluna/Barcelona in particular too. 

 

I can understand why the (local) government wants this. Ive visited Madrid once, but one could be fooled thinking it was Valencia. Dont get me wrong, ofcourse Madrid has a lot to offer. But a Grand Prix wont make a difference. An event like the Olympics could. As shown by Barcelona, who finally stepped out of Madrid's artificial limelight of Franco because of this event.

[kumo7]

Is it? I mean its Madrid and its a capital city. But thats it. When visiting Spain, it has always been the urge to visit the Islands, Barcelona, Sevilla, the Costa's.. But not so much Madrid. And thats not only with me. Because we had a little F1 talk at the coffee corner at work yesterday. And some 15 people pitched in on the subject of Madrid and the Grand Prix. Virtually all hadnt visited Madrid whilst being numerous times in Spain and also all believed Barcelona is the city more famous than Madrid.

From historic stance and political stance; yes Madrid is an important city. But in my opinion, its not that great. Valencia and Barcelona have more to offer in terms of tourist attractions.

 

Madrid has Prado and other impressive art institutions. The El Retiro park around Velazques linking Atocha station could be a possibility I think...

But, like you say, lack of waterfront landscape. But it has interesting undulating ground that is exciting for Formula One. Madrid is relatively compact for a capital city, so in its north and in its east, if the government wanted to intervene, it might have found places to lay a completely new track. 

And it did not, ...

[Sabre1977]

Madrid is probably one of the most underrated capital cities in Europe, mainly because tourism in Spain is concentrated on these other areas. I think the Spanish government is keen to reverse this, and anything to get one over Cataluna/Barcelona in particular too. 

 

I live near Madrid and you are right, Barcelona is very good too but Madrid has a lot to see in Historical and cultural heritage, and is near to historical cities like Segovia or Aranjuez. 

[PayasYouRace]

I’ve been to Barcelona. Never to Madrid. So from a city break perspective the Grand Prix would give me a nice excuse to take Mrs P. I’ve never heard a bad word said about Madrid as a tourist spot from anyone I know who’s been.

I’m just not particularly enamoured by the round the sheds street circuit.

[jonpollak]

Am I right in remembering that the proposed New Jersey circuit 10 years ago would have gone right past some sewage works?

Ahh the Weehawken Grand Prix !!!
https://www.nj.com/n...es_first-e.html

We had a bunch of rooms booked at that Sheraton by the Hudson . Soon after the race was canceled I got an email from them saying they wanted payment in advance for the rooms immediately or they’d re-book them. I called and advised them that the race was canceled and we aren’t coming. “Race is cancelled? Are you sure? That’s the first we’ve heard of it.”

Jp

[FelixAdan]

Madrid is probably one of the most underrated capital cities in Europe, mainly because tourism in Spain is concentrated on these other areas. I think the Spanish government is keen to reverse this, and anything to get one over Cataluna/Barcelona in particular too. 

 

It's actually one of Madrid assets. People generally go without much expectations. It doesn't have the monumentality others have.

 

Anyway the current Spanish government is not very keen on Madrid because the region is governed by an alpha female with a whip from a different party (who even spanked her own party). She's called Isabel Diaz Ayuso just in case anyone wants to Google pics of her...

Edited by FelixAdan, 25 January 2024 - 15:35.

[KWSN - DSM]

Madrid is on our list of European Capitals and cultural old cities we want to visit - Whenever it happens Prado will be 1 on the list.

[juicy sushi]

And Osaka wants to steal the Japanese GP away from Suzuka for a street race:  https://www.the-race...e-osaka-suzuka/

 

I am pretty sure that this will thankfully be a non-starter.  Unlike Barcelona, this would definitely be a loss to the calendar.

[IrvTheSwerve]

And Osaka wants to steal the Japanese GP away from Suzuka for a street race:  https://www.the-race...e-osaka-suzuka/

 

I am pretty sure that this will thankfully be a non-starter.  Unlike Barcelona, this would definitely be a loss to the calendar.

I don’t think anything is off limits for Liberty unfortunately.

[juicy sushi]

I don’t think anything is off limits for Liberty unfortunately.

They might not think a street race is off limits, but the actual logistics of getting one done in Japan are a different matter.  Even if the local government wants to do it, they're going to have a hell of a time figuring out how to actually shut down relevant streets and construct one.  Suzuka is right there, always sold out, and always ready to go with the full infrastructure.  

 

Osaka also would have a hell of a time getting the sanctioning fee out of the regional government.  They won't want to waste that kind of cash when it could be used on more lucrative pork barrel schemes.

[JimmyClark]

I believe the Osaka project would be on the grounds of Expo 2025, which is an island, kind of like Circuit Gilles Villeneuve. I doubt it would cause too much disruption.

But no way in a thousand years would they be able to come up with something more challenging, beautiful or iconic than Suzuka there.

[AustinF1]

You forgot; The man who brought (back) not only 1 banked corner to Formula One. But 2 banked corners. At one circuit! He and Dromo were the ones who rebuild Zandvoort in preparation to hosting the Grand Prix again.

Didn't forget. I just wasn't trying to list it all. Jarno has done a lot for a lot of tracks!

[RacingFan10]

Madrid is probably one of the most underrated capital cities in Europe, mainly because tourism in Spain is concentrated on these other areas. I think the Spanish government is keen to reverse this, and anything to get one over Cataluna/Barcelona in particular too. 

 

Madrid is underrated? Maybe yes

Is it better than Barcelona? No

Did it need to host another crappy urban GP? Hell no

[Hellenic tifosi]

I am no particular fan of the the way Liberty is expanding the calendar, but removing Barcelona in favour of Madrid wouldn't be the end of the world for me. However, Spa and Suzuka should definitely be off limits.

[KWSN - DSM]

I have no real issue in moving away from Barcelona, the only issue I have is the choice of track.

[Beri]

Suzuka is out of contract after this year. If they don't cough up enough Yens, then it could be over. And to be fair; I haven't seen any real good racing on that track in a while now. So I'm in doubt if I would find it disappointing if Suzuka were to be axed. I didn't mind Fuji back in the 00's either.

[kumo7]

Suzuka is out of contract after this year. If they don't cough up enough Yens, then it could be over. And to be fair; I haven't seen any real good racing on that track in a while now. So I'm in doubt if I would find it disappointing if Suzuka were to be axed. I didn't mind Fuji back in the 00's either.

 

But if you like to see another industry site racing track, do you like those repeating sequences of straight lines, 90-degree bends, completely flat, very fast, I mean... they are all the same.

I prefer Suzuka much more.

 

Importantly, this year, the race is in early April when the weather is unstable. So we can expect an eventful race.

 

Running around the factory makes me think of playing toy tv-games.

Edited by kumo7, 26 January 2024 - 02:02.

[ForzaFormula]

Madrid is probably one of the most underrated capital cities in Europe, mainly because tourism in Spain is concentrated on these other areas. I think the Spanish government is keen to reverse this, and anything to get one over Cataluna/Barcelona in particular too. 

It is not underrated, it is Madrid, the thing it does not have is a beach like Barcelona, its not as exotic, it is a great city and very well known but it is in the middle of Spain not near water and it gets crazy hot in the summer, unbearable, I live in Barcelona and have lived in Madrid and visit the city often, it is different but Barcelona has that something extra special that Madrid does not, but you will find locals being more friendly in Madrid, and they are more generous in general, plus it is Spanish, not Catalan central, yes big spanish influence in Barcelona but it is different in Madrid...

 

[Beri]

But if you like to see another industry site racing track, do you like those repeating sequences of straight lines, 90-degree bends, completely flat, very fast, I mean... they are all the same.

I prefer Suzuka much more.

 

Importantly, this year, the race is in early April when the weather is unstable. So we can expect an eventful race.

 

Running around the factory makes me think of playing toy tv-games.

 

The Osaka replacement doesnt have to be as you described. That being said, I was only talking about a hypothetical absence of Suzuka on the calendar. I didnt think about a possible replacement.

[DeKnyff]

It is not underrated, it is Madrid, the thing it does not have is a beach like Barcelona, its not as exotic, it is a great city and very well known but it is in the middle of Spain not near water and it gets crazy hot in the summer, unbearable, I live in Barcelona and have lived in Madrid and visit the city often, it is different but Barcelona has that something extra special that Madrid does not, but you will find locals being more friendly in Madrid, and they are more generous in general, plus it is Spanish, not Catalan central, yes big spanish influence in Barcelona but it is different in Madrid...

 

You could be wrong on that one, Madrid is at the feet of a 8500 ft high mountain range (there are several ski resorts in the area, the closest one 40 miles from the city center), which ensures a safe supply of water, in quantity and quality, to the capital. In fact, there are far bigger problems of lack of water in the Mediterranean coast than in Madrid.

 

In relationship to that, Madrid as at an altitude of 2300 ft. This is not Mexico (7350 ft) but it could still be a cause of concern for F1 engines.

[PayasYouRace]

You could be wrong on that one, Madrid is at the feet of a 8500 ft high mountain range (there are several ski resorts in the area, the closest one 40 miles from the city center), which ensures a safe supply of water, in quantity and quality, to the capital. In fact, there are far bigger problems of lack of water in the Mediterranean coast than in Madrid.

In relationship to that, Madrid as at an altitude of 2300 ft. This is not Mexico (7350 ft) but it could still be a cause of concern for F1 engines.

FF was clearly referring to the sea, and the cooling effect of being near it in summer. Not water supplies.

[DeKnyff]

FF was clearly referring to the sea, and the cooling effect of being near it in summer. Not water supplies.

Maybe, but “not near water” could be understood in different ways. Specially, because scarcity of water is a real issue and a recurrent problem in the Iberian Peninsula (save for the Atlantic coast). Not so “clearly referring to the sea” as you suggest.

Edited by DeKnyff, 26 January 2024 - 11:01.

[kumo7]

The Osaka replacement doesnt have to be as you described. That being said, I was only talking about a hypothetical absence of Suzuka on the calendar. I didnt think about a possible replacement.

 

It is much too early perhaps, anyway. Also, I say any city of the power of Osaka could have the potential to become the next big thing...

Having said this, Osaka is a flat land, which is boring. Monaco has hills and tunnels and the king...

[eab]

It is much too early perhaps, anyway. Also, I say any city of the power of Osaka could have the potential to become the next big thing...

Having said this, Osaka is a flat land, which is boring. Monaco has hills and tunnels and the king...

Ayrton.

[Sabre1977]

FF was clearly referring to the sea, and the cooling effect of being near it in summer. Not water supplies.

 

It depends.

 

Barcelona has a more gentle climate, but for example Valencia has a lot of humidity in the air that makes the hot very unpleseant. Madrid and central Spain on the contrary has usually dry hot, which is more pleasant to go outside at night,

 

Be near the sea has not always the "cooling" effect. Sevilla is much nearer to the sea than Madrid and I can swear you that it is much hotter in summer.

Edited by Sabre1977, 26 January 2024 - 10:49.

[Beri]

It is much too early perhaps, anyway. Also, I say any city of the power of Osaka could have the potential to become the next big thing...

Having said this, Osaka is a flat land, which is boring. Monaco has hills and tunnels and the king...

 

Osaka is the heart of automotive Japan. So I think it has a strong influence. Also, there are places enough to find elevation. Any circuit close to Osaka, like Kawanishi and even Kobe, could be marketed as the Osaka Grand Prix since they are within 30km (20miles) distance of Osaka city center. And those places have enough elevation.

[ForzaFormula]

FF was clearly referring to the sea, and the cooling effect of being near it in summer. Not water supplies.

Exactly no idea why someone talks about water supply lol

[DeKnyff]

Exactly no idea why someone talks about water supply lol

 

Because it's an issue of great magnitude in all the Mediterranean basin, specially in the Iberian Peninsula. I'm surprised you are not aware of it if you live in Barcelona. Many people will understand "city X is not near water" as literally lacking water. This may sound unbelievable to people in the British Isles or Northern Europe, but it's a harsh reality in the Western Mediterranean areas.

[JimmyClark]

Osaka is the heart of automotive Japan. So I think it has a strong influence. Also, there are places enough to find elevation. Any circuit close to Osaka, like Kawanishi and even Kobe, could be marketed as the Osaka Grand Prix since they are within 30km (20miles) distance of Osaka city center. And those places have enough elevation.

As I said up thread, from my understanding the idea is to have it round the Expo site, which is on a reclaimed land island. There will be no elevation if this is the case.

[kumo7]

Osaka is the heart of automotive Japan. So I think it has a strong influence. Also, there are places enough to find elevation. Any circuit close to Osaka, like Kawanishi and even Kobe, could be marketed as the Osaka Grand Prix since they are within 30km (20miles) distance of Osaka city center. And those places have enough elevation.

 

You, if you go a bit away from Osaka City, then you wil have cities that surround the Osaka. Just that these cities doe not see themselves as Osaka, and Osaka neither see them as Osaka, they are called Kansai.

Kansai GP perhaps..... DAIHATSU is in Osaka, but Toyota is from Aichi, Nissan is Kyusyu-Tokyo, Honda is Hamamatsu origin ... so Osaka is not such a center... Never the less they might have their belief deeply rooted there. 

Edited by kumo7, 28 January 2024 - 01:21.

[absinthedude]

Because it's an issue of great magnitude in all the Mediterranean basin, specially in the Iberian Peninsula. I'm surprised you are not aware of it if you live in Barcelona. Many people will understand "city X is not near water" as literally lacking water. This may sound unbelievable to people in the British Isles or Northern Europe, but it's a harsh reality in the Western Mediterranean areas.

 

As far back as the late 1980s, European standards for toilet cisterns were informed by the water shortages in Southern Europe. 

 

Am I to understand that Montmelo/Barcelona/Circuit Catalunya is to be replaced by a street circuit near Madrid for political reasons? How sad. There was never anything wrong with the Barcelona track, at least not inherently....it was the fact that teams had oodles of data from testing there. It's a decent circuit in a part of the world that is generally very well liked.

 

While Madrid is certainly a major city but is hardly beloved. 

 

If they have the temerity to remove Suzuka from the calendar it's just yet another reason for me to stay away from this farce that cells itself F1.

[PayasYouRace]

There was never anything wrong with the Barcelona track, at least not inherently....

Apart from the far too long period of 2004-2022 when the final sector was ruined.

[DeKnyff]

As far back as the late 1980s, European standards for toilet cisterns were informed by the water shortages in Southern Europe. 

 

Am I to understand that Montmelo/Barcelona/Circuit Catalunya is to be replaced by a street circuit near Madrid for political reasons? How sad. There was never anything wrong with the Barcelona track, at least not inherently....it was the fact that teams had oodles of data from testing there. It's a decent circuit in a part of the world that is generally very well liked.

 

While Madrid is certainly a major city but is hardly beloved. 

 

If they have the temerity to remove Suzuka from the calendar it's just yet another reason for me to stay away from this farce that cells itself F1.

 

Am I to understand that Montmelo/Barcelona/Circuit Catalunya is to be replaced by a street circuit near Madrid for political reasons?

 

No. This conversation about the water started because another poster wrote that Madrid was not near water and there were different interpretations about that. But politics don't play at all.

[OO7]

They finally sort out the last sector in Barcelona, reverting to the old layout and then this happens!

[Carl42]

Anything would be better that we have already