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MP4/4 vs RB19: Which was the more dominant car (=most dominant F1 car ever)


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#151 Henri Greuter

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Posted 19 December 2023 - 17:45

As OP who put in the brackets in the title, I have the following to say.

 

 

I don't mind discussing and comparing the drivers of the two cars I started the post with.

If other good candidates (cars) for comparison are offered, that's fine with me too, and that included drivers of thoses cars too.

 

Biut I fail to see the relevance of digging up 2021 and make comnparisons about that year and the drivers within that year within this thread.

And neither Merc or RB of 2021 deserves to be part of this ongoing discussion.



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#152 DW46

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Posted 19 December 2023 - 20:21

As OP who put in the brackets in the title, I have the following to say.


I don't mind discussing and comparing the drivers of the two cars I started the post with.
If other good candidates (cars) for comparison are offered, that's fine with me too, and that included drivers of thoses cars too.

Biut I fail to see the relevance of digging up 2021 and make comnparisons about that year and the drivers within that year within this thread.
And neither Merc or RB of 2021 deserves to be part of this ongoing discussion.



My bad, me and MissingApex got over excited 😂 retracted fella and onwards.

#153 William Hunt

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Posted 19 December 2023 - 20:56

Stick Senna and Prost in the RB and 2023’s a classic.

 

No: a classic year is lots of cars competitive and able to win and more than two drivers fighting for a title. Any year in the 1970s, for example 1974, is more 'classic' and in particular interesting as years with just 2 or 3 drivers winning races or 1 car winning all or almost all races.

I have a different definition of what a 'classic' year / an exciting year look like and it involves many drivers & cars able to win and multiple (more as 2) drivers fighting for the title. 1974 is a pretty good example of a 'classic year'.


Edited by William Hunt, 19 December 2023 - 20:59.


#154 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 December 2023 - 10:45

No: a classic year is lots of cars competitive and able to win and more than two drivers fighting for a title. Any year in the 1970s, for example 1974, is more 'classic' and in particular interesting as years with just 2 or 3 drivers winning races or 1 car winning all or almost all races.

I have a different definition of what a 'classic' year / an exciting year look like and it involves many drivers & cars able to win and multiple (more as 2) drivers fighting for the title. 1974 is a pretty good example of a 'classic year'.

 

I love the seasons with broad competition and many different winners, but the real classics tend to be the ones with the big, season long battles up front with a heated rivalry. 1974 was great, but 1976 is considered the classic season of the 70s. Same for 1986, or 1998, etc, etc.



#155 F1Frog

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Posted 20 December 2023 - 11:49

Totally off-topic, but again an interesting point for debate.

 

Personally, I don't consider 1974 to be a classic season at all. Yes, three drivers went into the final race with a chance of the title and the champion led the sixth-most laps, but where was the narrative of the season? And where were the classic races? I barely remember any races at all from that season (Brands Hatch with Lauda's puncture was quite interesting, and Monza where Peterson held off Fittipaldi, but neither were true classics). There often seemed to be great shifts with one day the Ferrari being dominant, the next race it is the Brabham, then the Tyrrell. Not close contests between different teams each time. And they kind of just converged to have the same number of points at the end. There was also the question mark about whether Jackie Stewart would be dominating had he still been racing.

 

1975 was a more interesting season, in my opinion, even though Lauda wrapped up the title before the final race. Because there were more interesting storylines during the season and good races. For example, Lauda bringing Ferrari for the top after a long while and asserting himself as the top driver post-Stewart. James Hunt excelling for Hesketh with that great win in Zandvoort, a more exciting race than any from 1974. There were the random great drives from Jean-Pierre Jarier or Tom Pryce for Shadow, Vittorio Brambilla in the March. Carlos Pace was a particularly exciting talent in the Brabham. There was another classic race in Silverstone in the wet where so many cars went off. Just a far more memorable season than 1974.

 

But 1976 was even better again, even though it was now mostly a two-way battle for the championship. Because there was a fascinating narrative throughout the season with Niki Lauda of Ferrari and James Hunt of McLaren battling for honours so there was a proper title battle unlike the previous year. And there are so many such memorable moments throughout the year, such as Lauda's accident on the Nordschleife and incredible return in Monza, the fascinating controversy in Jarama and even more in Brands Hatch, while the title decider in Fuji was a greater race than anything mentioned beforehand. There wasn't a huge amount of interesting action outside the top two although Jody Scheckter and John Watson both had a thrilling duel for victory with Hunt (I don't remember which races), and Ronnie Peterson had some standout moments. But really, that was a season all about Niki Lauda and James Hunt, with a storyline so fascinating that a brilliant film could be made of it. That was a true classic season, one of the greatest in history.

 

And this may now be a controversial statement, but for me, 2021 was the iconic, classic, perfect season, and the greatest in Formula 1 history. It may have been painful to watch at times, and left an initially sour taste at the end, but once everything had died down and you have the benefit to look back in hindsight, there really has never been a better Formula 1 season. First and foremost, the championship battle between Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen was truly legendary. There has never quite been anything like it. For all the great Hawthorn-Moss or Hunt-Lauda battles, there is very rarely one fought between two absolute greats of the sport like 2021. Only 1951 (Fangio vs Ascari) and 1988-1990 (Senna vs Prost) are comparable in that regard. But there was something just magical about having two of the greatest drivers in history in practically equal cars, pretty much annihilating the opposition, including their very capable teammates, every time. There were also just so many classic races that season of all different types, which puts it apart from any of the aforementioned seasons. There were fascinating strategy races such as Bahrain, Spain, France, USA. There were races of total carnage like Imola, Baku, Hungary, Russia. And races of controversy like Silverstone, Monza, Jeddah, Abu Dhabi. And that historic Hamilton drive in Brazil and Verstappen's qualifying lap in Jeddah. Even Belgium was something that is interesting to have happened when looking back, even if the actual day was infuriating. There were almost no dull races that season, probably a higher percentage of brilliant races than has ever before been seen.

 

And there was also so much interesting controversy and talking points, and a great narrative to the season that was often painful at the time but with hindsight is something that was wonderful to witness. The narrative of one of the greatest of all time going for a record-breaking eighth championship up against the greatest of the next generation, at a time when they were both at practically the same level, with practically equal cars (and cars that were similarly matched at most races, rather than just taking it in turns to be clearly the best). Then the controversial incidents between them and the story of Verstappen's aggressive driving style and Hamilton backing off at times and fighting back at others brought into play a whole level of psychology of racing. Michael Masi totally losing control as the season went on also made things interesting, and while this controversy was painful to watch at the time, it was brilliant that it created so many talking points and kept F1 on your mind so much even between races. You cannot talk about 2021 without thinking of the season finale in Abu Dhabi, but while that was the most farcical race in F1 history and made an absolute mockery of the sport, it again is now a fascinating part of Formula 1 history that people will read about for decades to come, and will be debated again in 30 years time just as Suzuka 1989 is still debated today. It was painful when it happened because of the fear it had set a precedent, and because it was so maddening when people tried to claim that Masi had made the right call, but again, it makes things interesting. It was a fitting end to the season with the controversy, even though it was also the worst piece of officiating in the history of any sport (going against the rules on the final lap of the season, and changing the outcome of the championship, because of a need to satisfy the show and make things interesting). It was awful, but at the same time I am now glad it happened, just like Suzuka 1989 (as long as it never happens again). The toxicity of the fans and of Mercedes and Red Bull wasn't nice, but the rest of the season made up for it, I think.

 

There were also so many interesting things happening behind the title contenders, which again sets it apart from other classic seasons. Lando Norris establishing himself as a potential future champion, and Daniel Ricciardo's total collapse at the same time at McLaren, but Ricciardo winning in Monza for McLaren's first win in nine years, while Norris couldn't quite finish off that brilliant drive in Sochi, and he had other great moments like the podiums in Imola and Monaco that were such remarkable drives. At Ferrari, Sainz stepping into Leclerc's team and giving him a genuine challenge, while Leclerc still had the more special moments like the Monaco and Baku poles and the Silverstone near-win. There were three world champions in the midfield to make things interesting, with Alonso standing out with his defence against Hamilton in Hungary after all their battles in the past, and Esteban Ocon therefore winning the best race of the season. Vettel also had some great races like Baku. Pierre Gasly's remarkable season for Alpha Tauri is another thing to mention, and George Russell dragging the Williams to places it shouldn't be with some visibly extraordinary qualifying laps and getting the Mercedes drive as a reward. Nikita Mazepin's flop was another storyline.

 

The whole season was just absolutely fantastic in so many ways and for me, pips the likes of 1958, 1976, 1981, 1986, 1989, 1997 and 2008 to be the greatest season of all time. None of these had every aspect of a brilliant season like 2021 did (1958 comes closest). I am so glad I was able to watch it all live.



#156 Risil

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Posted 20 December 2023 - 11:54

If you're looking for two drivers and teams going at it until the end and absolutely losing their **** in the process, 2021 was up there with any other season. Let down by the FIA of course, but that's not too dissimilar to 1976 or 1989.

 

But it depends what you're looking for. I think there is a case to be made that the true spirit of F1 is solving hard technical problems while your opposition gets them wrong -- in that case 2023 was up there with 1963, 1978, 2002 etc.



#157 F1Frog

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Posted 20 December 2023 - 11:56

If you're looking for two drivers and teams going at it until the end and absolutely losing their **** in the process, 2021 was up there with any other season. Let down by the FIA of course, but that's not too dissimilar to 1976 or 1989.


Yes 1976 and 1989 are similar to 2021, but neither had as many individually thrilling races, or as many fascinating storylines behind the title contenders.

#158 Risil

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Posted 20 December 2023 - 12:03

Disagree, there was loads going on behind the title contenders in 1989 and 1976. In 1989 Mansell was at Ferrari, Renault back in F1, pre-qualifying; in 1976 six-wheeled Tyrrells, Mario Andretti and Lotus, an American constructor, Brabham and Fittipaldi's struggles.

 

Whether or not the individual races were thrilling or not is totally subjective, I think.



#159 realracer200

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Posted 20 December 2023 - 22:01

The 1989 and 1990 seasons were like 100x times better than 2021.



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#160 realracer200

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Posted 20 December 2023 - 22:23

Yes 1976 and 1989 are similar to 2021, but neither had as many individually thrilling races, or as many fascinating storylines behind the title contenders.

 

I don't know about much 1976 but 1989 was literally one of the best if not the best season in Formula 1 history. Apart from the Senna vs Prost year long battle, Ferrari introducing the semi-automatic gearbox, Renault returning to the sport , different engine configuration V8 vs V10 vs V12, etc etc And not many individually thrilling races? You have to be kidding, apart from the Suzuka showdown, Mansell winning from 13th @ Hungaroring of all places, Estoril the black flag drama, Adelaide chaos, Alesi finishing 4th in his debut race, Johansen on the podium in the Onyx, Modena finishing third in Monaco, Martini in a Minardi qualifying on the first row so on. Even comparing 2021 to 1989 is a bad joke.  



#161 Risil

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Posted 20 December 2023 - 22:31

I strongly believe that the Estoril black flag drama is the greatest thing to ever happen in F1, and I'm only sad that we didn't have cover-everything Sky Sports and social media to amplify the feelings.

#162 George Costanza

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 03:08

The 1989 and 1990 seasons were like 100x times better than 2021.


I agree because F1 had better engines and better looking cars.

#163 George Costanza

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 03:08

I don't know about much 1976 but 1989 was literally one of the best if not the best season in Formula 1 history. Apart from the Senna vs Prost year long battle, Ferrari introducing the semi-automatic gearbox, Renault returning to the sport , different engine configuration V8 vs V10 vs V12, etc etc And not many individually thrilling races? You have to be kidding, apart from the Suzuka showdown, Mansell winning from 13th @ Hungaroring of all places, Estoril the black flag drama, Adelaide chaos, Alesi finishing 4th in his debut race, Johansen on the podium in the Onyx, Modena finishing third in Monaco, Martini in a Minardi qualifying on the first row so on. Even comparing 2021 to 1989 is a bad joke.


1990 was better than 1989.

#164 Henri Greuter

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 07:48

1990 was better than 1989.

 

 

Shall we please keep out 89 and 90 out of this discussion?

 

If discussing 2021 distracts for the topic because of going loose on what people feel as Max Verstappen's questionable behaviour that year, even that behaviour pales into insignificance to the disgusting scenes we saw at certain tracks in '89 and especially in 1990,primarily inspired by one driver of the MP/4/4. And I rather won''t distract the thread with allowing all of that in.



#165 MissingApex

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 10:31

What I don’t like about this discussion is that it is already narrowed down by claiming the most dominant cars in F1 history are the MP4/4 and the RB19, where in my opinion the RB19 isn’t even in the top 10 most dominant cars.

The RB19 was a good car with an excellent team and driver.

Even in recent years we’ve seen more dominant cars, but apparently this isn’t even up for debate.

#166 Collombin

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 10:50

What I don’t like about this discussion is that it is already narrowed down by claiming the most dominant cars in F1 history are the MP4/4 and the RB19, where in my opinion the RB19 isn’t even in the top 10 most dominant cars.

The RB19 was a good car with an excellent team and driver.

Even in recent years we’ve seen more dominant cars, but apparently this isn’t even up for debate.


This sounds like an attempt at yet another Max v Lewis argument though, but in disguise - criticise the car of the driver you prefer and vice versa.

#167 Henri Greuter

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 10:53

What I don’t like about this discussion is that it is already narrowed down by claiming the most dominant cars in F1 history are the MP4/4 and the RB19, where in my opinion the RB19 isn’t even in the top 10 most dominant cars.

The RB19 was a good car with an excellent team and driver.

Even in recent years we’ve seen more dominant cars, but apparently this isn’t even up for debate.

 

 

I don't mind to see arguements borught up for other cars than the two I mentioned and rated to be the two most dominant ever, pretty much due to one criterium: the number of defeats. Something we see reflect in the results, the stats and back then, the teams in the prize money they were awarded.

 

I agree with you that, when looking at it in different manners, RB19 comes short in a number of aspects compared with a few other cars that were way more dominant in that aspect. Like for example speed advantage over the opponents in qualifying. I don't mind discussing that or see that being discussed.

 

Which cars do you rate over RB19 and why?

 

 

 

 

But I failed to see what critizing Verstappen for 2021 has to do within this thread.

And if misbehaving on track in a different season is no reason for being discussed even it it involved one of the drivers of a (seen in a certain way) dominant car then we must definitely keep '89 and '90 out of this topic.

 

And since I want to keep it out of the topic as much as possible, I'm leave it to your own imagination as of why, other than the hint that it had something to do with how one of the drivers of the MP4/4 acted on track in those two years. 

 

The only argument I can think of for a '89 or '90 car being mentioned here is for the '89 McLaren because of being practically all dominant in qualifying and in the first 3/4th of the season having a speed advantoge over its opponents but not being as reliable as some of the other high scoring cars.


Edited by Henri Greuter, 21 December 2023 - 10:54.


#168 F1Frog

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 11:25

I think the Mercedes W05 and W07 are certainly worthy of a mention here, but in different ways. In terms of raw speed difference to the second-best car, I would suggest that the Mercedes W05 possibly had the biggest advantage over the second-best car since the 1961 Ferrari sharknose. There is certainly no way that Verstappen could have pulled away from the pack to the extent that Hamilton and Rosberg did in Bahrain 2014, for example. But unlike the RB19, it wasn't bulletproof in terms of reliability. In Canada, it lost because of the MGU-K failures on both cars, so that is a weakness of the car and prevents it from being dominant (on a totally unrelated note, the 2014 Canadian Grand Prix was genuinely one of the best races I have ever seen. I think it is extremely underrated as a race). However, the Belgium loss was due to a collision between the drivers; not because of the car, and the Hungary loss was a crazy race, but was harder for Mercedes to recover to the front because overtaking was so much harder in 2014 than in 2023. Does that make the car less dominant? I would suggest not, it is just different regulations. In 2016, Mercedes lost Spain because the drivers collided; nothing to do with the car. They also lost Malaysia, because of Hamilton's engine failure, which is down to the car. But also because Rosberg had been hit by Vettel at the start. And both Hamilton and Rosberg had plenty of other mechanical failures across 2014 and 2016 which denied the team 1-2 finishes, whereas, had Perez performed as well as Rosberg did in 2023, the RB19 could have had a 1-2 in every single race bar Singapore.

 

The Mercedes had a greater advantage over the rest of the pack than the Red Bull, but the Red Bull would have been better suited to getting more points than the Mercedes. That is what I am getting at here.



#169 Laptom

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 12:17

I cannot see that the RB19 itself was a real dominant car over the season. Yes, it had a handfull of races where the car was a class apart, but it had more races that the car itself was merely faster than a Merc, Fer, AM or even the MC. 
The problem is that there were too many dogs fighting for the 2nd bone, making RB19 looking better than it actual was. Keep in mind, yes the car was the fastest this year. No discussion about that, but I don't think the car was dominant as the MP4/4, William FW14, Merc W07 and W11, Fer F2002 or F2004 or even back to the Lotus in the '60/'70's...



#170 Risil

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 12:23

It turns out it's as difficult to compare dominant cars across eras as it is to compare dominant drivers. :)

I think you've got to include the 2014 and 2016 Mercedes in that list, and probably the 1992 Williams too.

#171 JeePee

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 12:28

https://www.reddit.c...vs_2023_suzuka/



#172 Risil

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 12:31

What does that Reddit thread say?

#173 thefinalapex

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 12:41

What does that Reddit thread say?


The field spread Q2 at suzuka 2015 against Q2 2023, i said before that these rules, although not perfect, are much better then 2014-2016 and a bit better then 2017-2020. At Paul Ricard 2021, for example the gap between the RB/Merc and p5 was around a minute in the race. Silverstone 2020 where the Mercedes had a gap in qualifying of around a second to the second best team..

#174 Risil

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 12:43

Hang on, Verstappen won at Silverstone in 2020, didn't he?

#175 thefinalapex

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 13:01

Hang on, Verstappen won at Silverstone in 2020, didn't he?

 

The second race yes but that was because of the funky tyres, like singapore 2015. Spain after that Hamilton lapped everybody apart from the top 3 in the race.



#176 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 13:24

This sounds like an attempt at yet another Max v Lewis argument though, but in disguise - criticise the car of the driver you prefer and vice versa.

Not your first rodeo.



#177 DW46

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 13:28

Not your first rodeo.


Yeah that’s not what MissingApex and I were doing, we were dreaming of a Schumacher v Verstappen super fight then noticed the thread name . . .

Everyone knows it’s the Alfetta 158 that’s the best anyway 😂 (Fagioli probs would have claimed a cracked chassis or it’s set up for Farina these days)

#178 Henri Greuter

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 18:39

I think the Mercedes W05 and W07 are certainly worthy of a mention here, but in different ways. In terms of raw speed difference to the second-best car, I would suggest that the Mercedes W05 possibly had the biggest advantage over the second-best car since the 1961 Ferrari sharknose. There is certainly no way that Verstappen could have pulled away from the pack to the extent that Hamilton and Rosberg did in Bahrain 2014, for example. But unlike the RB19, it wasn't bulletproof in terms of reliability. In Canada, it lost because of the MGU-K failures on both cars, so that is a weakness of the car and prevents it from being dominant (on a totally unrelated note, the 2014 Canadian Grand Prix was genuinely one of the best races I have ever seen. I think it is extremely underrated as a race). However, the Belgium loss was due to a collision between the drivers; not because of the car, and the Hungary loss was a crazy race, but was harder for Mercedes to recover to the front because overtaking was so much harder in 2014 than in 2023. Does that make the car less dominant? I would suggest not, it is just different regulations. In 2016, Mercedes lost Spain because the drivers collided; nothing to do with the car. They also lost Malaysia, because of Hamilton's engine failure, which is down to the car. But also because Rosberg had been hit by Vettel at the start. And both Hamilton and Rosberg had plenty of other mechanical failures across 2014 and 2016 which denied the team 1-2 finishes, whereas, had Perez performed as well as Rosberg did in 2023, the RB19 could have had a 1-2 in every single race bar Singapore.

 

The Mercedes had a greater advantage over the rest of the pack than the Red Bull, but the Red Bull would have been better suited to getting more points than the Mercedes. That is what I am getting at here.

i see how you got "at  there". I remember less of 2014 but definitely about 2016 I do agree with your opinions as of why that car could be included here.



#179 ARTGP

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 18:52

I strongly believe that the Estoril black flag drama is the greatest thing to ever happen in F1, and I'm only sad that we didn't have cover-everything Sky Sports and social media to amplify the feelings.

 

That's nothing to be sad about. I think people need to let these things go more readily. 


Edited by ARTGP, 21 December 2023 - 18:53.


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#180 ForzaFormula

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 20:33

I don't know about much 1976 but 1989 was literally one of the best if not the best season in Formula 1 history. Apart from the Senna vs Prost year long battle, Ferrari introducing the semi-automatic gearbox, Renault returning to the sport , different engine configuration V8 vs V10 vs V12, etc etc And not many individually thrilling races? You have to be kidding, apart from the Suzuka showdown, Mansell winning from 13th @ Hungaroring of all places, Estoril the black flag drama, Adelaide chaos, Alesi finishing 4th in his debut race, Johansen on the podium in the Onyx, Modena finishing third in Monaco, Martini in a Minardi qualifying on the first row so on. Even comparing 2021 to 1989 is a bad joke.  

Exactly it is like f1 frog never seen an f1 race before 2021 only reading articles 2021 does not even get into the top 10 classic f1 seasons.
 



#181 ForzaFormula

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 20:35

If Senna and Prost drove the RB19, or one of them paired with Verstappen, the answer would be the RB19. Then we could have seen it stretch its legs a bit more with two top drivers pushing each other.

The MP4/4 was the better Q car statistically, but those were the days you could set the car up for Q and race separately so it is impossible to compare. The RB is set up for the race and even if they qualify off the front they know they can cruise by everyone.

On point



#182 nivoglibina

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 21:48

Exactly it is like f1 frog never seen an f1 race before 2021 only reading articles 2021 does not even get into the top 10 classic f1 seasons.
 

I've watched F1 races since the late 70's and happen to agree with him.

 

It depends a lot on what you value as a spectator.
The looks of the cars, the sounds of the cars, the atmosphere etc were garbage compared to some other years.

 

In 2021 the on track action - the racing, the tension in almost every race, strategy differences, 2 drivers being in a class of their own, suspense in the points battle, Mercedes coming on strong with their engine in the late season  -  it was epic.

But mainly the races themselves were almost all interesting.



#183 PlatenGlass

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Posted 21 December 2023 - 21:48

I strongly believe that the Estoril black flag drama is the greatest thing to ever happen in F1, and I'm only sad that we didn't have cover-everything Sky Sports and social media to amplify the feelings.

I'm not sad. We don't need everything done to death.

Why I'm on this forum, I don't know.

#184 William Hunt

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Posted 22 December 2023 - 07:51

I don't know about much 1976 but 1989 was literally one of the best if not the best season in Formula 1 history. Apart from the Senna vs Prost year long battle, Ferrari introducing the semi-automatic gearbox, Renault returning to the sport , different engine configuration V8 vs V10 vs V12, etc etc And not many individually thrilling races? You have to be kidding, apart from the Suzuka showdown, Mansell winning from 13th @ Hungaroring of all places, Estoril the black flag drama, Adelaide chaos, Alesi finishing 4th in his debut race, Johansen on the podium in the Onyx, Modena finishing third in Monaco, Martini in a Minardi qualifying on the first row so on. Even comparing 2021 to 1989 is a bad joke.  

 

 

1989 was great because it had so many drivers & teams, so much variety and so much battles BEHIND the Mclarens. But at the time I did hate that the McLarens won everything bar Monza (Berger win ahead of Alboreto and the two Arrows for Ferrari).

But seriously: it's just your opinion in the end. Just like it is my opinion that a season with two drivers winning all races except one race can never ever be a good season. It boils down to personal opinion and taste in the end. You can't objectively say 1989 was better as 1976 or 1974 or 1986 (loved that year but hated that Elio de Angelis died that year)

Personally 1985 is another year that I loved and hated but for me it's a classic year. Hated that Bellof & Winkelhock died that year but takte that away and it's an awesome season.

 

In 1985 we had Michele Alboreto building up a championship lead in the first half only to see (sadly for Michele) his championship run completely fall apart in the final part of the season with reliabilty problems. We had Senna showing his magic in the black & gold Lotus, winning on rain soaked tracks in Estoril and Spa. Ayrton for sure was the quickest driver that year, actually of that whole generation, and by far.
 

Prost was calculating as always (I didn't like him, today I have more respect for him, used to hate him as a kid). Rosberg drove a 'lap of the Gods' with his sensational Silverstone pole position, many consider that lap still the best  qualifying lap of all time.

Piquet in his Brabham was in '85 at a disadvantage because the Pirelli's were the lesser race tyre but he won in France. Teo Fabi put his Toleman on pole in Germany (Nürburgring, Alboreto won that race).

Andrea de Cesaris had his famous roll over crash in Zeltweg (aka Österreichring). His Ligier had rolled over multiple times. Andrea walked to the pits and told Guy Ligier 'I've had a small accident'. Guy was furious and sacked Andrea but he only replaced him after Zandvoort so de Cesaris still got to do one race before Frenchman Philippe Streiff (who was Renault's test driver in '84 and did F3000 for AGS with the same tabac sponsor as Ligier in '85) replaced him.
Then at the final race in '85 it was Streiff, who had made a strong impression at Ligier, mananged to get Guy Ligier furious as well by tangling with team leader Jacques Laffite in the final lap... they both still managed to limp to 3th & 4th overall but Streiff found himself fired for that action, Tyrrell still gave him a lifeline in '86 (actually Streiff had a sponsor who got him that Tyrrell seat).

Ivan Capelli also made his F1 debut in '85 and immediately scored a 4th place with no prior F1 testing (in a Tyrrell). Nigel Mansell scored his first win, at Brands Hatch, at Williams, but Rosberg clearly was the better driver at Williams. 

 

We had three new teams in 1985 (imagine that today... with all current teams excluding newcomers): Zakspeed, Haas-Lola & Minardi (at team I always loved). ATS dissapeared sadly, they would return from '88 until '89 under the RIAL name (RIAL was actually ATS but with blue colour instead of yellow and a different name).

Benetton bought both Toleman and Spirit in 1985. They bought the small Spirit outfit because they just wanted their tyre contract (Pirelli) so that they could give that tyre deal to Toleman, so they (sadly) closed Spirit right after buying it. Toleman still ran with the Toleman name for the final year. Benetton also sponsored Alfa Romeo in '85 so there were 4 Benetton sponsored cars in '85 (Fabi & Ghinzani at Toleman, and Patrese & Cheever at Euroracing-Alfa Romeo).

 

Gerhard Berger made his full season debut (he drove 4 races for ATS in '84) at Arrows.Danner made his debut (2 races) deputising for an injured Palmer at Zakspeed. At Haas-Lola Alan Jones made his come back. And it was the final year of Renault in F1 as team, they would come back but ... they bought Benetton (formerly known as Toleman) then so that wasn't the original Renault team for me. That was Toleman renamed Benetton renamed Renault. For me the true & real Renault F1 team died in '85.

 

1985 imho was a classic year. The points tally of Alain Prost is misleading, he ended on 73 pts, 20 pts more as Alboreto. But it is misleading because no one dominated that year, well Senna actually did in qualy.

What made the difference was the reliability of McLaren (but only on Prost's car in '85), something that was also evident in '84: the McLaren-TAG Porsche was incredibly reliable and was always more competitive on race day. Prost rivals often were quicker but they suffered much more DNF's.

 

Prost:           3 DNF's (and one DQ) on 16 races
Alboreto:      6 DNF's  (4 of them in the 4 final races...)
Rosberg:      7 DNF's
Senna:         7 DNF's
de Angelis:   3 DNF's  (and one DQ)
Mansell:       5 DNF's
Johansson:  5 DNF's
Piquet:         9 DNF's
Laffite:         7 DNF's
Lauda:         11 DNF's (and missing 2 races so 11 on 14)

Boutsen:      4 DNF's
Tambay:      7 DNF's

Now compare those DNF's with the reliability of F1 today. Verstappen had 0 DNF's on 22 races. This also makes results much more boring / predictable today.

 

1986 & 1983 and 1979, 1980 & 1981 were also all classic F1 seasons imho. 1982 would have been so amazing had we not lost Villeneuve (died, just like Paletti in Montréal) and Pironi (destroyed legs).
 

1978 was considered a dominant Lotus year but... compared to todays standard 1978 wasn't a dominant season by one team at all, lots of different drivers & teams scored podiums & wins that year. Yet it was for a long time called a Lotus dominant year.

 

In 1979 Ligier was easily the quickest car in the opening races. But they were notoriously unreliable as well, sadly for Depailler & Laffite.Williams emerged that year as a winning constructor (first win for Williams at Silverstone, with 'old' Regazzoni driving), Alan Jones had his breakthrough year as well and Piquet had his full time debut at Brabham. 

1980 was soooo exciting too but 1981 had one of the most exciting title finals ever. At the start of the final race of 1981 (at Las Vegas) three driver were still in championship contention:

- Carlos Reutemann  (Williams)  49 pts
- Nelson Piquet  (Brabham)        48 pts
- Jacques Laffite (Ligier)            43 pts

 

Reutemann really should have been the title winner in 1981 imho, you see: the South African GP of 1981 was unfairly taken away World Championship status by the FIA because of the FIA-FOCA (Ecclestone-Ballestre) war... Reutemann won that race and had it counted then Carlos would have been the world champion with 2 pts more as Piquet, instead he lost the title with 1 pts less as Piquet. On top of that Williams clearly didn't support Reutemann since Jones was their man / lead driver.

 

So in '81 we had 3 title contenders in the final round (in '86 even 4), in 1989 the title was already decided before the final race and just 2 title contenders from the same team, far less exciting as '81 or '86. Prost won the '89 title by cheating as well (driving in to Senna on purpose at Suzuka) so for me '89 ended with an anti-climax.
I loved all the in season transfers and constant silly season rumours (in season) in '89 though. And Capelli was superb in the March in those days, so was Martini in the Minardi.


Edited by William Hunt, 22 December 2023 - 08:03.


#185 eab

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Posted 22 December 2023 - 08:06

You've got '89 mixed up with '88.



#186 PlatenGlass

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Posted 22 December 2023 - 11:23

You've got '89 mixed up with '88.

Yeah, delete the whole post!

#187 eab

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Posted 22 December 2023 - 11:50

Yeah, delete the whole post!

What do you mean?



#188 PlatenGlass

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Posted 22 December 2023 - 12:31

What do you mean?

William Hunt's long post all has to go now.

#189 eab

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Posted 22 December 2023 - 12:41

William Hunt's long post all has to go now.

And why would that be?



#190 PlatenGlass

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Posted 22 December 2023 - 13:05

And why would that be?

It was supposed to be a joke...

#191 eab

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Posted 23 December 2023 - 01:54

:D



#192 PayasYouRace

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Posted 23 December 2023 - 10:09

In the spirit of compromise and hopefully annoying all the right people.

18d2c7fb-6229-44a3-842a-1490e424da38.png

Merry Christmas you filthy animals!

#193 Henri Greuter

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Posted 23 December 2023 - 16:21

Is there a manner in which I can express my disgust because of the lack ot tact towards other fellow forum members within the post above without that my comment is removed by moderators while I, as Topic Moderator can not remove the post above. probably because it is made by a moderator?



#194 Collombin

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Posted 23 December 2023 - 18:43

If PAYR's post has revealed that the dominant McLaren was really a Red Bull then all he has done is given himself extra work over the holidays recalculating the 1988 championship.

#195 PayasYouRace

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Posted 23 December 2023 - 19:09

If PAYR's post has revealed that the dominant McLaren was really a Red Bull then all he has done is given himself extra work over the holidays recalculating the 1988 championship.

 

Not wishing to take over Henri's thread, but I did once recalculate the 1988 season with 1 minute added to the race time of each McLaren driver. It would have been an epic season, and the championship implications of Rene Arnoux taking Gerhard Berger out of the lead in Adelaide would have seen this forum in meltdown.

 

 

I still have my spreadsheet. Shall I post it in my PaYR Championship thread?

 

Edit: Though my conclusion could be said to be on topic.

 

Spoiler



#196 Collombin

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Posted 23 December 2023 - 19:16

Matt Kev expects.