348 replies to this topic

[AlexPrime]

They are    I need to catch up on this year's races over the Winter. The best racing in NASCAR.

A quick correction though. These are modifieds. Super modifeds are a different beast altogether.

I checked some of both 

[FLB]

Yeah, Super Modifieds are what you get when you stick a World of Outlaws sprint car on pavement with an industrial-strength supply of peyote…

One place I've never been and that I've sworn myself to go is Oswego, NY.

 

[AlexPrime]

One place I've never been and that I've sworn myself to go is Oswego, NY.

 

these are beasts!

[Bob Riebe]

Very, very sad the Copper World Classic died with the soul racing in the U.S.

 

I am not going to look it up , BUT IF, I remember correctly, Super Modifieds would have qualified in the third row of the Indy car race the  years they both ran in Phoenix.

[juicy sushi]

I do remember something similar. Definitely 170 or so lap average and some really, really big safety concerns.

[YamahaV10]

I do wonder if the looks of an Indycar (which are very weird looking things these days) are problematic.

 

What are you talking about ? They look awesome. I bet if you showed a young kid pictures of a few different race cars, they'd pick the Indycar more than the rest. The windscreen makes it look like a supercar.

[YamahaV10]

 (for example better integration of the DEFLECTOR SHEILD)  

 

I don't get this.  The windscreen follows the bodylines horizontally and vertically. Can you post a picture and tell me at what point does the windscreen not follow the bodyline ?

[loki]

I don't get this.  The windscreen follows the bodylines horizontally and vertically. Can you post a picture and tell me at what point does the windscreen not follow the bodyline ?

It looks fine.  Reports from drivers and engineers indicate the addition of the DEFLECTOR SHEILD negatively impacted the balance of the car.  It was added as an after thought/addition rather than being designed as part of the tub.  With a tub having the DEFLECTOR SHEILD being designed in from the ground up the balance of the car should be better. You wouldn’t have to change the looks or function just how it was incorporated.

[YamahaV10]

It looks fine.  Reports from drivers and engineers indicate the addition of the DEFLECTOR SHEILD negatively impacted the balance of the car.  It was added as an after thought/addition rather than being designed as part of the tub.  With a tub having the DEFLECTOR SHEILD being designed in from the ground up the balance of the car should be better. You wouldn’t have to change the looks or function just how it was incorporated.

 

Ok that makes sense strictly from an engineering point of view. But aesthetically the windscreen fits like a glove and looks like it was always there.

 

For me, todays Indycars are the best looking racecars in the world and in a poll, I think the Indycar would be voted the coolest looking by non race fans or kids. The F1 cars got a huge upgrade looks wise in 2022 but I think the Indycar still looks better. The looks of the cars is a huge asset to Indycar. They have a half fighter jet and half supercar look. 

 

[Radoye]

But aesthetically the windscreen fits like a glove and looks like it was always there.

 

From some angles yes, from some others less so.

But personally it doesn't bother me that much, it's still a reasonably good looking car regardless. Still there is room for improvement.

Edited by Radoye, 03 January 2024 - 04:56.

[TennisUK]

That photo is probably the only flattering angle for this generation of Indy cars. I mean, these things are subjective, but anyone I know in person that knows what an Indycar looks like has commented how weirdly proportioned and gawky they look.

New F1 cars look miles better (as do F2 cars which are far less contrived), but for me the best looking cars today by a country mile are hypercars/GTP cars.

[aportinga]

From some angles yes, from some others less so.

But personally it doesn't bother me that much, it's still a reasonably good looking car regardless. Still there is room for improvement.

 

This - from the side it's beautiful but straight on all I see is...

 

[Radoye]

Yep - but probably the worst viewing angle is from the back. As Robin Miller described it once "the aeroscreen looks like a toilet seat", and i didn't understand what he meant by it until i had a chance to see it from close behind for the first time...

[Wuzak]

Can I ask what happened with the 2.4L engines that were being developed for 2024?

 

Honda are using that engine in LMDh/GTP?

 

What of the Chevy 2.4L engine?

 

If the issue was integrating the hybrid system, why didn't they use the engines without the hybrid systems?

 

Must have been an expensive exercise to develop them only for them to not be used in Indycar.

[kumo7]

Can I ask what happened with the 2.4L engines that were being developed for 2024?

 

Honda are using that engine in LMDh/GTP?

 

What of the Chevy 2.4L engine?

 

If the issue was integrating the hybrid system, why didn't they use the engines without the hybrid systems?

 

Must have been an expensive exercise to develop them only for them to not be used in Indycar.

 

Wuzak, I could find this on racer.com, back from 2022.

 

https://racer.com/20...ew-2-4l-engine/

 

It says that Indy car did not give reason for it to the press, but guesses that:

 

RACER has learned one of the primary areas involved the extreme costs of developing the new internal combustion engines, coupled with a new and unanticipated need to help the series redevelop and mass-produce the ERS units, left both brands with the budget to support one or the other, but not both..

Edited by kumo7, 04 January 2024 - 07:49.

[Wuzak]

Wuzak, I could find this on racer.com, back from 2022.

 

https://racer.com/20...ew-2-4l-engine/

 

It says that Indy car did not give reason for it to the press, but guesses that:

 

RACER has learned one of the primary areas involved the extreme costs of developing the new internal combustion engines, coupled with a new and unanticipated need to help the series redevelop and mass-produce the ERS units, left both brands with the budget to support one or the other, but not both..

 

In the latest RACER mailbag there was this question:

 

What came first: IndyCar stopping the 2.4L engines and then Honda deciding to run theirs in IMSA? Or had Honda already planned to use the same ICE in both series before the cancelation was announced?

 

 

Marshall Pruett's response was:

 

The Acura ARX-06 hybrid IMSA GTP car had been testing for many months before the joint decision by IndyCar, Chevy, and Honda was made to halt the 2.4L IndyCar motor move for 2024. In fact, we were at Daytona for a December 5-7 hybrid GTP test where the same Acura/Honda 2.4L motor was in action when RACER got wind of the change of plans.

 

 

So were Chevy that far behind?

 

Or was it that they had no plan to use it in another series, so the cost was even higher for them?

[loki]

 

So were Chevy that far behind?

 

Or was it that they had no plan to use it in another series, so the cost was even higher for them?

The change was initiated when Mahle dropped the ball and it was clear they’d have to spend more than initially planned.  Neither Honda nor Chevrolet were pleased. That increased spend resulted in the new ICE being cancelled.

[Wuzak]

The change was initiated when Mahle dropped the ball and it was clear they’d have to spend more than initially planned.  Neither Honda nor Chevrolet were pleased. That increased spend resulted in the new ICE being cancelled.

 

Sure, but Honda had already tested their engine, maybe with the ERS, in an Indycar and a prototype with a different ERS.

 

The 2.4L V6 had a use for Honda outside Indycar, so they could justify continuing its development.

 

But not Chevy. The engine was for Indycar alone, it seems.

 

I'd also suggest that the continuation of the old chassis played a role in the failure of the ERS. The reason being that the old chassis was ill equipped to carry a battery pack for the ERS, so a novel solution had to be found.

 

I'm sure its not the MGU that is the issue.

[kumo7]

Sure, but Honda had already tested their engine, maybe with the ERS, in an Indycar and a prototype with a different ERS.

 

The 2.4L V6 had a use for Honda outside Indycar, so they could justify continuing its development.

 

But not Chevy. The engine was for Indycar alone, it seems.

 

I'd also suggest that the continuation of the old chassis played a role in the failure of the ERS. The reason being that the old chassis was ill equipped to carry a battery pack for the ERS, so a novel solution had to be found.

 

I'm sure its not the MGU that is the issue.

 

Nice.

 

So nor according to you, it is not Honda that dropped the ball, but the Chassis builder and the case of choosing not to renew the chassis. 

What could teams do if it has not the cash to do so. At least Honda is using the technology that they have invested.

[Wuzak]

Nice.

 

So nor according to you, it is not Honda that dropped the ball, but the Chassis builder and the case of choosing not to renew the chassis. 

What could teams do if it has not the cash to do so. At least Honda is using the technology that they have invested.

 

No, I'm saying staying with the old chassis made the ERS integration more difficult. Different, unique, solutions had to be found.

 

F1 used the smaller, 80hp "push to pass" style ERS back in 2009 with the MGU and a small battery.

 

Why is such a struggle for Indycar?

 

According to Loki, Mahle dropped the ball, and that may have been the case. Certainly the debut of the ERS keeps getting pushed back.

 

Yes, Honda have put their development money to good use in LMDh/GTP. 

[juicy sushi]

You need to look at the situation holistically. As we’ve all talked about, new tubs cost multiple millions to purchase. And require a lead time of many months. So, a decision to do a new chassis would need to have come around 36 months prior to anticipated debut. 2024 minus 36 months is a December 2020/January 2021 time frame. Thinking back to that time, we were still in the middle of a global pandemic, with supply chains at a standstill. A new chassis for the 2.4 engine and the ERS would require close collaboration between Dallara, Mahle, Honda, and GM while everyone is working remotely and the normal design tools are less available. This would mean you couldn’t get on track to test physical parts until likely early 2022, with possibly no production being possible until 2023. And with inflation and supply chain issues it would become rapidly clear that you could not manufacture an initial batch of ~40 tubs (every entry plus some spares) within 12 months. Which means that a January 2024 delivery date is unlikely. But teams need to have cars to race. And this doesn’t even factor in that Honda and GM can’t build all the new 2.4s while also maintaining the fleet of old 2.2s “just in case” to start a season with the old cars.

It’s much more cost efficient and less supply chain risky to use the old tubs with the new motors and ERS’ designed to bolt in. But then it turned out in early 2023 that the Mahle ERS unit, which was already taking longer to develop than anticipated, simply was not going to get done in time. Who can you call in early 2023 to save your hybrid project? Who has the knowledge and resources to design and build that kind of technology in that kind of time frame? Honda and GM have that. But they don’t have the budgets to cover this sudden new cost, plus the new 2.4s. And Indycar the series does not have the cash reserves to cover the gap.

So, we say bye bye to the 2.4s, and design the ERS to bolt onto the trusty old 2.2s. Which is financially and technically viable, and deliverable. But the plug was pulled on Mahle just slightly too late. And now we have the current situation of the ERS not debuting until after the Indy 500. Reality sometimes sucks.

And during all of this Honda has its own major change as HPD is brought under the HRC umbrella, and is expected to contribute to HRC activities, rather than do its own thing. Which means that the budget and resources which used to be for Indycar, IMSA, and some other stuff, now has to also chip in for F1. Which meant that Honda suddenly had less to give to Indycar. But not a desire to leave Indycar. So they get brutally honest about what really matters to them, and make their public case.

And in turn, we get this thread where many people pretend they can solve the problems of Indycar with solutions that involve money that doesn’t exist and designs/parts that pop out of thin air with no design and production required.

Edited by juicy sushi, 04 January 2024 - 14:31.

[loki]

According to Loki, Mahle dropped the ball, and that may have been the case. 

 

Chap, that WAS the case.  Your opinions are strong but your knowledge of what’s happening and why is weak.

[Wuzak]

Chap, that WAS the case.  Your opinions are strong but your knowledge of what’s happening and why is weak.

 

So, how did they drop the ball?

 

Taking too long?

Too expensive?

System didn't work?

 

Does it work now?

[loki]

So, how did they drop the ball?

 

Taking too long?

Too expensive?

System didn't work?

 

Does it work now?

There were several delays during development.  In the end Mahle had a difficult development and wasn’t able to scale from concept to manufacturing and support.  That's where the extra money from the series, Chevrolet and Honda came in.  Chevy and Honda were none too pleased needing to pick up the slack.  Hence the new engine being deep sixed.  This is the funding being used to manufacture, implement and support the hybrid.  There are manufactured prototypes that have/are being tested and could be implemented when the powers that be (whomever they may be) decide they’re ready. 

[paulb]

A Racer article that said Mahle could not support the production requirements for the planned 2024 launch, https://racer.com/20...run-at-sebring/

 

Reliability and production cited by Motorsportweek, 

 https://www.motorspo...after-indy-500/

 

I’m sure Indystar has done thorough work on the topic, but its a pay site.

Edited by paulb, 05 January 2024 - 01:22.

[juicy sushi]

It’s one thing to develop a couple of prototypes that do the trick. It’s another thing to crank out 33+ identical units that work for a full season as promised.

[kumo7]

A Racer article that said Mahle could not support the production requirements for the planned 2024 launch, https://racer.com/20...run-at-sebring/

 

Reliability and production cited by Motorsportweek, 

 https://www.motorspo...after-indy-500/

 

I’m sure Indystar has done thorough work on the topic, but its a pay site.

 

Thank you for this info, Paul.

 

I think Indycars can take time to dial in the new unit as it will be used by 33 teams with each of them running multiple chassis on race, for many years to come. 

Got to say this "Supercapacitator" performance makes me curious. That is a huge condenser... where is the supercapacitator mounted, outside of the tub I believe, shall the wheel base extended, if so by how much,... and so on and so forth. 

[Radoye]

Got to say this "Supercapacitator" performance makes me curious. That is a huge condenser... where is the supercapacitator mounted, outside of the tub I believe, shall the wheel base extended, if so by how much,... and so on and so forth. 

Apparently everything is fitted in the bellhousing:

 

https://www.indycar....7-Hybrid-Update

 

 

The hybrid system is made up of the Motor Generator Unit (MGU) and Energy Storage System (ESS) which both fit inside the bellhousing, located between the INDYCAR SERIES combustion engine and the gearbox.

[juicy sushi]

Basically the location the turbo had in the CART-era 2.65 litre v8s.

[kumo7]

Basically the location the turbo had in the CART-era 2.65 litre v8s.

 

It will not integrate turbo, I understood.

[juicy sushi]

It will not integrate turbo, I understood.

It does not. But I was noting that the location is similar to where that turbo had been. The current 2.2 litre v6s have twin turbos in different locations.

[kumo7]

It does not. But I was noting that the location is similar to where that turbo had been. The current 2.2 litre v6s have twin turbos in different locations.

 

Yup, it was clear.

 

Just that a bellhousing could me longer to accommodate different things. 

Own my second thoughts keeping both two Turbo Chargers and supercapacitator could be, I mean to dream about, interesting, if it were away from the costs issues.

If it were to become longer without twin turbo, the combination of the current tub plus longer PU demands new body shells, which could be interesting. 

[Wuzak]

There were several delays during development.  In the end Mahle had a difficult development and wasn’t able to scale from concept to manufacturing and support.  That's where the extra money from the series, Chevrolet and Honda came in.  Chevy and Honda were none too pleased needing to pick up the slack.  Hence the new engine being deep sixed.  This is the funding being used to manufacture, implement and support the hybrid.  There are manufactured prototypes that have/are being tested and could be implemented when the powers that be (whomever they may be) decide they’re ready. 

 

Manufacturing and reliability the two biggest issues?

 

Are they still the same issues that have delayed the ERS until after Indy?

[Radoye]

If it were to become longer without twin turbo, the combination of the current tub plus longer PU demands new body shells, which could be interesting. 

Yes my understanding is that there will be new rear bodywork. Not drastically different from what we have now though.

 

Also, weight distribution will once again change just like with introduction of the aeroscreen, hopefully it won't affect the handling as bad as it did then.

[loki]

Manufacturing and reliability the two biggest issues?

 

Are they still the same issues that have delayed the ERS until after Indy?

They didn’t think they could build enough prior to the 500.  There needs to be one for every engine plus a spare.  They didn’t have enough to do a 10 ten test this month so they delayed.

[kumo7]

Yes my understanding is that there will be new rear bodywork. Not drastically different from what we have now though.

Also, weight distribution will once again change just like with introduction of the aeroscreen, hopefully it won't affect the handling as bad as it did then.

Battery is heavy, but supercaoacitator?

[aportinga]

Thinking of the Honda commercial last year in which they did not include the Idy500. Anyone think that may have been one ofthe first shots fired by Honda?

 

Perhaps if so, after a lack of progress Honda comes out in public with their concerns.

[Jim Thurman]

Very, very sad the Copper World Classic died with the soul racing in the U.S.

 

I am not going to look it up , BUT IF, I remember correctly, Super Modifieds would have qualified in the third row of the Indy car race the  years they both ran in Phoenix.

I don't have access to my library of old racing papers, but this is a popular myth. Qualified yes, but nowhere near as high up as some claim or believe.

 

Thanks to some timely postings on Facebook, for example in 1994, Davey Hamilton's record speed for super modifieds at Phoenix would have put him 21st in the CART race. I've seen 1986, and that year, the pole winning super modified speed was good for 20th, IIRC.

[Risil]

That's still rather impressive!

[Sauberfan]

Liberty asked about buying Indycar 3 times, and were told to F off on the 3rd time -David Land @ 7:19

 

https://youtu.be/HBq...Jtly0YdGA4QU5W2

[Forghieri]

Liberty asked about buying Indycar 3 times, and were told to F off on the 3rd time -David Land @ 7:19

 

https://youtu.be/HBq...Jtly0YdGA4QU5W2

Good.

[PayasYouRace]

Nobody should have a monopoly on the commercial rights of all the top level single seater series.

[Secretariat]

One of David Land's ideas given the state of Indycar was whether it made sense for Indycar to pair up with Super Formula. I like the thought, but don't think I can speak to the merits, feasibility or business case for such an idea.

[Risil]

If I were Indycar I'd be worried that Liberty were only interested in putting on F1 events at Indianapolis and Long Beach and everything else is dead weight.

[juicy sushi]

If I were Indycar I'd be worried that Liberty were only interested in putting on F1 events at Indianapolis and Long Beach and everything else is dead weight.

That would have been 100% the case.  

 

A pair up with Super Formula makes a lot of sense on the face of it, but that series is built around the participation of Toyota and shadow participation of Nissan (via Super GT sharing common engine rules with Super Formula), and I don't know that they would have much interest in a common engine design for 2027-ish.  

 

It would be a considerable cost savings for Honda, but would take the agreement of other parties.  In particular, if Indycar were to go down the spec-Ilmor menu with a buffet of electronic codes to add as toppings then you'd suddenly need to convince not only Chevy, but also Toyota and Nissan to do the same.  And that makes things a good deal trickier.  Not impossible, but definitely trickier.  Especially as the Japanese manufacturers are in a once-bitten, twice-shy mood over sharing regulations given how well things worked out sharing them with the DTM.

[aportinga]

Good.

 

Will we see more "Greatest Spectacle" comments from F1?

 

This just gets me wondering - if Liberty wants Indycar enough to ask 3 times, if they were actually told to F off - do they plan on poking the IMS bear even more now?

[aportinga]

That would have been 100% the case.  

 

A pair up with Super Formula makes a lot of sense on the face of it, but that series is built around the participation of Toyota and shadow participation of Nissan (via Super GT sharing common engine rules with Super Formula), and I don't know that they would have much interest in a common engine design for 2027-ish.  

 

It would be a considerable cost savings for Honda, but would take the agreement of other parties.  In particular, if Indycar were to go down the spec-Ilmor menu with a buffet of electronic codes to add as toppings then you'd suddenly need to convince not only Chevy, but also Toyota and Nissan to do the same.  And that makes things a good deal trickier.  Not impossible, but definitely trickier.  Especially as the Japanese manufacturers are in a once-bitten, twice-shy mood over sharing regulations given how well things worked out sharing them with the DTM.

 

The down side of someone NOT buying Indycar is that if it continues to be in the black $15-$25 mill per season, I do not see how it lasts without the stars aligning.

 

- 3rd and likely 4th manufacture

- New chassis, new engines

- Some fancy events

- F1 downturn in popularity

 

I mean many "things" need to happen for the series to turn around and so far Penske and crew have been 100% reactive to the market - in many ways copying other series successes. It also seems companies and people currently involved in the series are getting a bit tired of waiting for series to show more growth from an economics point of view. We're still waiting on Honda but at the same time hearing Andretti expressing frustrations. Penske setting up an sub-org to outline ideas and concerns from owners??? One would have thought that would be a priority when he acquired the series - not now. I would go as far as he should have also have brought in additional groups - representing small and large sponsors and track owners. Collect the data - have open conversations to understand pain points and share ideas.

 

Maybe Penske is old school in terms of running businesses. I know how that goes but times changed in the mid 2000s where many companies became more inclusive to hearing opinions, collecting data and general decision making.

Edited by aportinga, 15 March 2024 - 15:26.

[loki]

If I were Indycar I'd be worried that Liberty were only interested in putting on F1 events at Indianapolis and Long Beach and everything else is dead weight.

Given how Miami and Vegas have gone in terms of market and pricing I don’t know Long Beach would want the F1 race let alone pay for it.  When Liberty made the last F1 pitch affordability and family friendly were two of the reasons given for staying with Indycar.

[aportinga]

Anyone suggest putting Newey on garden leave?