35 replies to this topic

[Jon Saltinstall]

Seeking help with how the logistics of this commute worked, if anyone can cast any light please!

 

On 28 May 1978 Lella Lombardi was due to drive Kenneth Leim’s Porsche 934 RS in the ADAC 1000Km at the Nürburgring. (She'd qualified the car and was present.) The race was divided into two 22-lap heats with a 2-hour break in the middle. Leim took the opening driving stint in the first heat, but had an accident on lap 12 that put the car out of action. Neither Lella nor third driver Otto Köhler took the wheel. 

 

Now here's the thing; Lella drove in the 500Km ETCC race at Estoril also on 28 May 1978. Carlo Giani had qualified the Fiat they usually shared and (as far as I can tell) took the first driving stint. The Lombardi/Giani Fiat dominated the 1300cc class and won.

 

I have not been able to find a contemporary report that explains how she got from the Nurburgring to Estoril in time to contest the ETCC race. The only conclusion I have reached is that as she was unexpectedly a free agent after the Leim car retired in Germany, she chartered a private plane and flew to Estoril. That would be cutting it fine with the necessary border issues as well as travel time. But that would also presuppose that Giani had been intending to drive solo at Estoril, which seems unlikely. 

 

Can anyone explain this set of circumstances, please? 

Edited by Jon Saltinstall, 11 December 2023 - 22:07.

[ReWind]

What is your source for a Leim/Lombardi/Köhler entry in the 1978 Nürburgring 1000 km?
 

Jan Hettler & Udo Klinkel in their monumental book about the 1000 km races at the Nürburgring have the following info about car # 40 (Porsche 934 Turbo):
Kenneth Leim (S) & Uwe Köhler (D) DNF in heat 1, DNS in heat 2. No asterisk at Köhler (which usually shows that a driver actually did not drive in the race).

 

So we have a different given name (Uwe instead of Otto) and a presumption that both drivers drove in heat 1.
And we have no sign of Lella Lombardi at all!

 

EDIT: Strangely in the description of the race Hettler/Klinkel talk about "Leim/Lombardi" (pp. 605, 609, 612/613).

Edited by ReWind, 12 December 2023 - 08:35.

[FastReader]

What is your source for a Leim/Lombardi/Köhler entry in the 1978 Nürburgring 1000 km?
 

She's definitely listed as a driver for the Leim Porsche 934 RS in the Nürburgring 1000km in Janos Wimpffen's Time & Two Seats and also in MotorSport magazine's database.

 

I don't have the answer to the original question but surely she would've had to qualify at Estoril (as well as the Nürburgring) if she wanted to drive in the ETCC race? She couldn't have just turned up once the race was under way and started driving.

[bsc]

I think it's unlikely that Giani would have planned to do the Estoril race by himself. Similarly, I don't think it's likely that having retired from the Nurburgring, Lella Lombardi would have pulled together the private flights needed at short notice to have competed at Estoril.

 

However, I think its possible she could have done both, provided that the intention was for Lombardi to only drive in the first heat. Normally for endurance races, participating in a practice session 'qualifies' one for the associated race. Therefore, Lombardi could have shuttled between Estoril and the Nurburging to 'qualify' for both races.

 

Assuming the first heat started relatively early on Sunday morning (which it must have to allow the two hour break and then the second heat to take place), Lombardi would have finished driving at the Nurburging by about lunchtime. If the ETCC didn't get underway at Estoril until early afternoon (and Lombardi were to drive in the latter part of the race), there would have been several hours for her to fly from the Nurburgring to Estoril (presumably by pre-arranged private flight) which, although tight, is doable. Also, Germany is an hour ahead of Portugal which would also create some more time.

 

There is a relatively modern example of this. In 2007, Jean-Denis Deletraz raced in the FIA GT race at Silverstone (finishing third), before flying to Valencia to race in the same day's Le Mans Series race (where he was second).

This is all speculation, I'm afraid.

Edited by bsc, 12 December 2023 - 13:22.

[Jon Saltinstall]

She's definitely listed as a driver for the Leim Porsche 934 RS in the Nürburgring 1000km in Janos Wimpffen's Time & Two Seats and also in MotorSport magazine's database.

 

I don't have the answer to the original question but surely she would've had to qualify at Estoril (as well as the Nürburgring) if she wanted to drive in the ETCC race? She couldn't have just turned up once the race was under way and started driving.

 

Indeed; I had placed her at the 'Ring from both those sources and also the RacingSportsCars database. No mention of the car in either Autosport or Motoring News. I'll need to see what Rally Racing and SportAuto say too.

 

Those were my thoughts too about Estoril, although as bsc has speculated, it's technically possible for her to have shuttled between the two locations. There's precedent for it with the good Mr ickx too (though not between Germany and Portugal) ...

[FastReader]

I think it's unlikely that Giani would have planned to do the Estoril race by himself. Similarly, I don't think it's likely that having retired from the Nurburgring, Lella Lombardi would have pulled together the private flights needed at short notice to have competed at Estoril.

 

However, I think its possible she could have done both, provided that the intention was for Lombardi to only drive in the first heat. Normally for endurance races, participating in a practice session 'qualifies' one for the associated race. Therefore, Lombardi could have shuttled between Estoril and the Nurburging to 'qualify' for both races.

 

Assuming the first heat started relatively early on Sunday morning (which it must have to allow the two hour break and then the second heat to take place), Lombardi would have finished driving at the Nurburging by about lunchtime. If the ETCC didn't get underway at Estoril until early afternoon (and Lombardi were to drive in the latter part of the race), there would have been several hours for her to fly from the Nurburgring to Estoril (presumably by pre-arranged private flight) which, although tight, is doable. Also, Germany is an hour ahead of Portugal which would also create some more time.

 

There is a relatively modern example of this. In 2007, Jean-Denis Deletraz raced in the FIA GT race at Silverstone (finishing third), before flying to Valencia to race in the same day's Le Mans Series race (where he was second).

This is all speculation, I'm afraid.

This is plausible but the main argument against is that it would have made more sense for Lombardi to drive the opening stint at  the Nurburgring. That doesn't mean you're wrong though.

 

The other alternative that comes to mind is that perhaps her main intention was to drive at Estoril and although she would've had to practice for both (and thereby be listed as a driver at the Nurburgring in Time & Two Seats) perhaps she opted for the ETCC race in light of the fact that Kenneth Leim had a co-driver in Otto Kohler. This might also partly explain the confusion in the Hettler/Klinkel book.

[small block]

On touringcarracing.net Lombardi's name appears in parentheses, Other drivers listed in this manner don't seem to have taken part in the race in those cars.

http://touringcarrac...ng 1000 km.html

Edited by small block, 12 December 2023 - 15:51.

[AJCee]

Shuttling between venues by helicopter/fixed wing is well known for jockeys but again, usually shorter distances.
As has been pointed out, it is technically feasible, but given prize money/love of the sport etc, was it financially viable?
You’d think it would merit a mention in the reports?


We need someone who was there…. Ideally the pilot!

[chr1s]

I seem to remember Vic Elford did something similar in the 1972 ADAC 1000 Kilometres, flying between Cologne and Oulton Park for a Formula 5000 race I think?

[Jon Saltinstall]

On touringcarracing.net Lombardi's name appears in parentheses, Other drivers listed in this manner don't seem to have taken part in the race in those cars.
http://touringcarrac...ng 1000 km.html

[Jon Saltinstall]

That’s a very good point! Looking increasingly that she was a “listed, never drove” at the ‘Ring but was certainly behind the wheel in Estoril. Yet she does appear to have practiced the Porsche in Germany. Maybe Leim just needed her help setting it up?

[ReWind]

@Jon: In the meantime you should have got an E-Mail from Jan Hettler.

[Jon Saltinstall]

Yes indeed, thank you. That’s great.

[Dick Dastardly]

Tom Walkinshaw won 2 races at the same time at 2 different circuits in the UK in 1976.

May 1976...he did the 1st half of the Silverstone 6 Hours for BMW. He handed over to John Fitzpatrick then flew to Thruxton where his Capri for the BTCC race was waiting.for him. He won that race...and John narrowly clinched victory in the 6 Hour race. So, 2 victories on different circuits at the same time, a rare achievement.

He didn't fly back to Silverstone for the prize-giving, John collected the trophy on his own. 

[opplock]

I can't remember exactly when but must have been between 83 and 85. Peter Baldwin raced a Metro at Silverstone and then flew to Brands Hatch to race his Mini. Landing at Brands was delayed due to a woman walking a dog on the airstrip. He started the race from pit lane about half a lap after the rest of the field had departed and put in an incredible display for duration of the 10 lap race. I seem to recall that he won but can't be certain. 

[Michael Ferner]

Not surprisingly, the US have seen same-day race commutes pretty early on, I recall seeing an example from the late forties/very early fifties, involving Troy Ruttman and a Midget night race after an earlier day-time show with Sprint cars (or Late Models, not really sure). It makes sense when the whole event is run off within mere hours, as is the norm in the US, and when there's lots of dough to be won. Plus, I'd guess that flying within the US even in the forties was much less of a hassle time-wise, and less expensive, to make it a worthwhile proposition. But chartering a plane to compete in two semi-professional (at best) races in two different European countries? Not a feasible idea, in my opinion.

[small block]

There are many instances of drivers racing in the Indianapolis 500 and the NASCAR Coca Cola 600 at Charlotte Motor Speedway on the same day. So far only one driver, Tony Stewart in 2001, has completed the full distance in both races.

[dolomite]

I went to a meeting at Castle Combe circa 1978 where Vince Woodman was racing his Cologne Capri and also commuting to another circuit by light aircraft to compete in a different event on the same day. A big deal was made of this by the circuit commentators. I have a recollection of watching said aircraft either taking off or landing on the start/finish straight at one point.

Edited by dolomite, 15 December 2023 - 07:39.

[Ray Bell]

People in Australia who've entered two meetings on the same day have got into strife for it...

 

I think it came up on this forum about Wally Mitchell, who entered for a Surfers Paradise meeting and a Calder meeting on the same day, I've forgotten the story, but it was never intended - nor would it have been possible - for him to be at both meetings, but because one entry wasn't properly withdrawn he was penaiised in some way.

[Geoff E]

I went to a meeting at Castle Combe circa 1978 ...

 

I went to a meeting there about 15-20 years ago when Mike Jordan left by helicopter (perhaps after winning a race)  to race somewhere else (Donington?).

[Lee Nicolle]

Same day no, but numerous competitors [mostly speedway] have raced at  2 or 3 tracks in one weekend. The sedan I was involved with in the 70s we ran Rowley Pk Fri night, Murray Bridge or Renmark Sat night and Waikerie on Sunday, did that more than once. And changed diff centres sat morning for the different tracks.

As a classic we were supposed to run Renmark sat night and Waikerie Sunday but for some reason it did not come off. Not really hard if you have no issues as Waikerie is on the way back.

A friend raced Rowley Pk in Adelaide Fri night then went to Sydney and placed in a big show there. He got to the track about 7pm and straight onto the track. This in the late 60s. and it is about 1300 miles.

These days over summer the Sprintcars often run 3 even 4 tracks in one week. Though it can be dangerous. Steve Brazier Jnr and Graham Oliver attempted Adelaide Sydney in the late 90s and came very unstuck and were both killed. F100 or similar towing a trailer. I saw them leave before the meeting was over in Adelaide

[ReWind]

[…] chartering a plane to compete in two semi-professional (at best) races in two different European countries? Not a feasible idea, in my opinion.

In 1978 Lella Lombardi was committed to Scuderia Jolly Club for the European Touring Car Championship which held an event in Portugal on May 28^th. On May 14^th she shared Kenneth Leim’s Porsche in the Silverstone 6 hours race and seems to have impressed the car owner enough to get an invitation from him for the Nürburgring 1000 kms on the day of the Estoril race.

So she must have considered some kind of schedule to allow her to compete in both races. The early start of the first heat, 9 o’clock on Sunday morning, might have played a rôle in her thinking that this was possible. Participating in the second heat which started on 2:30 p.m. was clearly out of the question. So her and Leim’s plan could very well have been that she would only drive in the first heat and then fly to Estoril for the ETCC race.

All this actually never happened because German pay-driver Uwe Köhler at short notice literally bought her ride from Kenneth Leim. Thus she was free to leave the Nürburgring after practice on Saturday, perhaps even before practice ended.

Maybe Jon can use the contact details given to him by Jan Hettler to ask Kenneth Leim, meanwhile 80 years old, if he remembers the particularities of this episode including the monetary aspects.

Edited by ReWind, 15 December 2023 - 12:53.

[Dick Dastardly]

Not quite the same but there have been many instances of a people competing on a rally during Sat daytime...a stage rally...then when that was over, driving elsewhere to compete in an overnight road rally. 

Back in the 1950s, my Dad used to compete in handicap race(s) at Oulton Park or Aintree in his Austin A40 or A90.....then do a road rally overnight...followed by an autotest on Sun, all in the same car, which he then used to go to work in on the Monday.... 

[Lee Nicolle]

Not quite the same but there have been many instances of a people competing on a rally during Sat daytime...a stage rally...then when that was over, driving elsewhere to compete in an overnight road rally. 

Back in the 1950s, my Dad used to compete in handicap race(s) at Oulton Park or Aintree in his Austin A40 or A90.....then do a road rally overnight...followed by an autotest on Sun, all in the same car, which he then used to go to work in on the Monday.... 

Ken Virgin who made fast VWs did a rally Sat night then went drag racing Sunday in the same car,, complete with mud. This in the 60s.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 18 December 2023 - 02:52.

[djr900]

Not the same day,
(but possibly within 24 hours ?) I seem to remember in the 1990s, Julian bailey possibly ? Racing in South Africa, then taking the 10 hour flight to the UK and going straight to another race.

I can also remember Barry Lee arriving by helicopter to a Hot Rod meeting, but I don't remember if he had raced somewhere else, or knowing Barry he was just being a showman
( Perhaps he had an appointment with his hairdresser the same day as the meeting?)

[Richard Jenkins]

Mention of a helicopter reminds me of Geoff Lees travelling to and from Thruxton and Mallory Park in 1975 on the same day to try all three Formula Ford Championships.

[GregThomas]

It used to be possible here in NZ to race at tracks in different islands on successive days. 

Do a Ruapuna meeting - outside Christchurch - on the Saturday and catch the overnight ferry to Wellington that evening.

From landing in Wellington Sunday morning, it's a relatively short trip to Levin where another days racing was waiting.

 

I had two friends who did this a couple of times a season with bikes. At that time everything was road registered so you could use a racebike with a daylight Warrant of Fitness.

So, do Ruapuna on Saturday, ride the bikes to the ferry. Ride from wellington to Levin and race. Catch the ferry back Sunday night and you're ready for work Monday morning.

 

Sadly the overnight ferry service is no longer running so this can't be done now. If we had a ferry service, Manfield would be reachable from Wellington to take the place of Levin.

[GLaird]

Martin Schanche competed in the Le Mans 24 H then flew to Mondello Park on the Sunday Morning for the European Rallycross round. My memory fails me in terms of the year, maybe 1988.

[Ray Bell]

Back in the XU-1 days, Colin Bond won a rally overnight...

 

He'd missed practice at Oran Park to do this, then arrived to start from the back of the grid in the 100-lapper, Did he win or just come second?

[bsc]

Not the same day,
(but possibly within 24 hours ?) I seem to remember in the 1990s, Julian bailey possibly ? Racing in South Africa, then taking the 10 hour flight to the UK and going straight to another race.

Sticking with Julian Bailey, in 1999 he finished second in a Lister Storm in the FIA GT race at Donington before helicoptering to Croft where he won the British GT race in a similar car.

[lyntonh]

Back in the XU-1 days, Colin Bond won a rally overnight...

 

He'd missed practice at Oran Park to do this, then arrived to start from the back of the grid in the 100-lapper, Did he win or just come second?

He led the race until the Dogleg two corners from the finish, when the clutch packed up.

He stopped completely in the slope up into BP, and had a tow truck push the car back to the pits after the race.

 

Doug Chivas took the win in the first ever race victory for the new Valiant Charger.

 

[Michael Ferner]

Doug Chivas? Is that the same bloke who raced sidecars (in the eighties, I think)?

[lyntonh]

Doug Chivas? Is that the same bloke who raced sidecars (in the eighties, I think)?

 

Doug's the person on the victory lap wearing sunglasses.

He was sidecar Doug's dad.

Edited by lyntonh, 18 December 2023 - 20:45.

[Ray Bell]

The others being paraded are Fred Gibson (over Doug's shoulder), winner of the 1971 Toby Lee pointscore for the year, Colin Bond and Leo Geoghegan. Miss Toby Lee is among them too, but I don't know which girl is her.

 

Bond won in '72 but I can't find reference to a rally the night before. He definitely hadn't qualified as he should have but got up the grid for the final by dint of setting fastest lap in one of the heats.

[Lee Nicolle]

The others being paraded are Fred Gibson (over Doug's shoulder), winner of the 1971 Toby Lee pointscore for the year, Colin Bond and Leo Geoghegan. Miss Toby Lee is among them too, but I don't know which girl is her.

 

Bond won in '72 but I can't find reference to a rally the night before. He definitely hadn't qualified as he should have but got up the grid for the final by dint of setting fastest lap in one of the heats.

Clearly you did not read your Giant Killers magazine. The story was there.

And Chrysler made copy from the win.

[Ray Bell]

I was working only from memory, Lee...

 

I remember the day pretty well, and now I'm reminded that Chivo won I remember the discussions in the crowd, everyone demanding to know who was a Ford fan and who was a Holden fan... and I said I preferred the Chargers and that was okay with both mobs.