101 replies to this topic

[krapmeister]

Autosport has released their 2023 ranking of the Top 50 drivers:

https://www.autospor...s-of-2023/2571/

My immediate thoughts are FE drivers are too high, SVG and Scotty Mac are too low and Perez shouldn't even really be on the list at all.

(Probably showing my biases there so feel free to disregard )

Anyway, I am sure they rank them the way they are purely to get clicks and enrage people on the interwebz. So get angry and discuss!

Edited by krapmeister, 22 December 2023 - 02:38.

[juicy sushi]

A BTCC driver in the top 50 is insanity. The Porsche LMDh guys seem a bit over-rated. I think the top 3 is fair and in the correct order.

[William Hunt]

A BTCC driver in the top 50 is insanity.

It is even more insane if you notice that he is even above the FIA F3 championship title winner. A driver in a Ford Focus touring car running in a local national championship (so not even a European or world championship and the time when the BTCC had international star drivers like in the '90s is long gone) higher as the deserved FIA F3 champion.... just let that sink in, who-ever thought this was the right decision... such biass...

 

But this is the typical British biass that we often see with Autosport, it's nationalism really. A German or French mag would never put a BTCC driver in the top 50 of the year, on the other hand they might put a French or German driver way too high.

Edited by William Hunt, 22 December 2023 - 05:15.

[Hans V]

This list has been put together by people who have paid much more attention to motorsport on four wheels than me this year, and I find it entertaining but don’t have strong opinions. However, Lando Norris in third, did they confuse this list with «best british driver»?

[Afterburner]

Alex Palou in second is deserved. A hell of a performance and great to see its magnitude appropriately recognized.

Not sure about the rest of the list. Jack Hawksworth???

[William Hunt]

I personally think that NASCAR drivers really shouldn't be in such a list, not because I don't like NASCAR, but because imho it's just impossible to compare with other circuit racing classes but much more important factor for me is: NASCAR is not an international championship, there's not European or Asian drivers full time driving in it. It's a pure US thing so it shouldn't be in an international best drivers list.
I would like to know which drivers nearly missed out on making the list.

 

By the way on British biass: there are 4 British drivers in the top 10...that's quite a lot. The list is also very unfriendly to single seater feeder series drivers. It's insane that the FIA F2 champion Théo Pourchaire is not even on the list but you can be 200% sure that if a British driver won the F2 title that he would for sure have been selected and that he would have been quite high on the list.

They didn't even put Andrea Kimi Antonelli in the list, that's just crazy. It's not because he drives in a feeder series that he wasn't one of the top 50 best drivers of the year, he clearly was and he for sure should have been higher as the BTCC champion. Really you can't take this list seriously with the likes of Pourchaire, F2 champion, missing but a BTCC driver at nr 36....

 

Btw, 20% of the drivers in that top 50 is British....you just cannot justify that.

Edited by William Hunt, 22 December 2023 - 07:01.

[pacificquay]

It is even more insane if you notice that he is even above the FIA F3 championship title winner. A driver in a Ford Focus touring car running in a local national championship (so not even a European or world championship and the time when the BTCC had international star drivers like in the '90s is long gone) higher as the deserved FIA F3 champion.... just let that sink in, who-ever thought this was the right decision... such biass...

 

But this is the typical British biass that we often see with Autosport, it's nationalism really. A German or French mag would never put a BTCC driver in the top 50 of the year, on the other hand they might put a French or German driver way too high.

 

Any British bias of Autosport (I wouldn't call it bias, it's more just a reflection of its roots) is more than countered by this forum which tends to be very anti anything British.

[pacificquay]

This list has been put together by people who have paid much more attention to motorsport on four wheels than me this year, and I find it entertaining but don’t have strong opinions. However, Lando Norris in third, did they confuse this list with «best british driver»?

 

Given that Lando was the 2nd best driver in F1 this year his ranking seems perfectly fair.

[chdphd]

Do any Brits go on, for example, French motorsport forums and moan about their media being pro-French?

[MattK9]

Perez is on the list which is a surprise, but maybe he deserves to be on the list just for his race in Baku.

 

Dennis is behind Cassidy which is interesting. Even though Dennis won the FE title.

 

Sainz and Leclerc only 14th & 15th.

 

Newgarden is way too high.

 

Ash Sutton on the list, but no Tom Ingram?

 

Plus the usual arguments about how on earth we can equate WRC to F1, FE, Indycar, Nascar, etc....

[jonpollak]

Any British bias of Autosport (I wouldn't call it bias, it's more just a reflection of its roots) is more than countered by this forum which tends to be very anti anything British.

Dunno….
If you were to take a look at the demographics of this forum you’d find that assessment to be a red herring.

Either that or you perceive persecution at an accelerated rate.
Jp

[Spillage]

Lando Norris has got to be the most overrated driver in the world. Closely followed by Alex Albon, if this lsit is anything to go by.

[Anderis]

Even if Perez had a bad year by the standards of F1 top teams, 50th place for an F1 race winner doesn't seem overly high if you ask me.

[Risil]

Lando Norris has got to be the most overrated driver in the world. Closely followed by Alex Albon, if this lsit is anything to go by.

Big talk! Where was Albon ranked? He was fabulous this year and a primary reason Williams have hauled themselves to the top of F1's third division.

[Risil]

Even if Perez had a bad year by the standards of F1 top teams, 50th place for an F1 race winner doesn't seem overly high if you ask me.

I think they deliberately put him 50th to throw a bit of shade. But I feel he was terribly disappointing this year rather than plain terrible.

[Spillage]

Big talk! Where was Albon ranked? He was fabulous this year and a primary reason Williams have hauled themselves to the top of F1's third division.

Albon was 10th and the 5th highest-ranked F1 driver behind Verstappen, Norris, Alonso and Hamilton. I mean, I think he had a good season but he had a decent car and I really don't think his teammate was up to much. I don't believe for a second that he's a better driver than Charles Leclerc or George Russell., even witht he relatively patchy seasons they had in 2023.

[Muppetmad]

Norris and Albon are far too high. I'm glad Palou has got the recognition he deserved; besides Verstappen, he was the standout driver in high-level single seaters this year. Pourchaire not even making the list is baffling, especially when they've made space for Pérez. Kubica, Déletraz and Andrade not being recognised for their sterling LMP2 season is unfortunate, but I guess not surprising.

[Risil]

Albon was 10th and the 5th highest-ranked F1 driver behind Verstappen, Norris, Alonso and Hamilton. I mean, I think he had a good season but he had a decent car and I really don't think his teammate was up to much. I don't believe for a second that he's a better driver than Charles Leclerc or George Russell., even witht he relatively patchy seasons they had in 2023.

I suppose there's a tension in these lists between "what they did" and "how they did it". Albon led the team, was honest and open with the media, made the most of every opportunity and worked out a distinctive style of driving that suited the Williams's strengths and weaknesses.

More important than the theoretical "on his day Leclerc would be faster", IMO. But I agree that if I were Ferrari I wouldn't swap Charles for Alex.

[Astandahl]

I suppose there's a tension in these lists between "what they did" and "how they did it". Albon led the team, was honest and open with the media, made the most of every opportunity and worked out a distinctive style of driving that suited the Williams's strengths and weaknesses.

More important than the theoretical "on his day Leclerc would be faster", IMO. But I agree that if I were Ferrari I wouldn't swap Charles for Alex.

The funny thing is that Leclerc had a much better season than Albon (probably even compared to Norris to a lesser extent)

Edited by Astandahl, 22 December 2023 - 13:26.

[Risil]

Tbh these lists are getting more important the longer the seasons get as I assume it's only the people who are being paid to watch who have seen every race.

[KWSN - DSM]

I suppose there's a tension in these lists between "what they did" and "how they did it". Albon led the team, was honest and open with the media, made the most of every opportunity and worked out a distinctive style of driving that suited the Williams's strengths and weaknesses.

More important than the theoretical "on his day Leclerc would be faster", IMO. But I agree that if I were Ferrari I wouldn't swap Charles for Alex.

 

Would you swap him for Carlos?

[Risil]

I think Sainz and Leclerc are working together fine. They need a better and more consistent car IMO.

Albon is establishing his credentials as someone who can lead a midfield team and make sure they make the most of their good days. This will put him in the conversation for any team outside the top three when it's contract time.

[KWSN - DSM]

I do not follow enough of the series having drivers on the list to have a relevant take on the list.

 

Like most others I am completely swayed and opinioned by my personal likes and dislikes, which I can still not stretch to those series I paid zero attention to, and which I find highly questionable as being represented at all 

 

So based on that a little scatter-shooting across the list

• Alex Palou is not the 2nd best driver in the world 2023
• Antonio Fucco is not the 7th best driver in the world 2023
• Jake Dennis is not the 9th best driver in the world 2023
• Wlliam Byron is not among the 50 best drivers in the world 2023
• Mitch Evans in not among the 50 best drivers in the world 2023
• No driver from Supercars are among the 50 best drivers in the world 2023
• No driver from BTCC are among the 50 best drivers in the world 2023
• Lando Norris is a top 10 driver in the world.
• Lewis Hamilton is the 2nd best driver in the world.

[JHSingo]

It's easy to say "X is not a top 50 driver", but I dare say very few people in this thread would be capable of ranking 50 drivers without their own biases (for instance, thinking that simply being in F1 automatically ranks you higher than a driver who has achieved more in a season in a different category). 

 

You're welcome to prove me wrong, of course. 

Edited by JHSingo, 22 December 2023 - 14:58.

[KWSN - DSM]

It's easy to say "X is not a top 50 driver", but I dare say very few people in this thread would be capable of ranking 50 drivers without their own biases (for instance, thinking that simply being in F1 automatically ranks you higher than a driver who has achieved more in a season in a different category). 

 

You're welcome to prove me wrong, of course. 

 

I was very clear on very specifically being unable to do that, and that any list I made would be swayed by personal likes and dislikes. So I am good.

 

[PlatenGlass]

When you're comparing drivers in different championships with different cars, you essentially have to make up a conversion system, and no two people's will be the same. Put that list on an internet forum, and all hell will break loose. It's barely worth a discussion really though.

[KWSN - DSM]

When you're comparing drivers in different championships with different cars, you essentially have to make up a conversion system, and no two people's will be the same. Put that list on an internet forum, and all hell will break loose. It's barely worth a discussion really though.

 

Yet here you are.

[PlatenGlass]

Yet here you are.

 

I said barely.

 

Edit - And it doesn't change anything. I'm wasting my time as much as everyone else in this thread!

Edited by PlatenGlass, 22 December 2023 - 16:40.

[KWSN - DSM]

Maybe I should try making a list which can then be short down from all sides...

 

/s

[KWSN - DSM]

Too hard, I can make it to 10.

1. Verstappen
2. Hamilton
3. Norris
4. Rovanpera
5. Palou
6. Kobayashi
7. Pourchaire
8. Vesti
9. Bortoleto
10. Buemi

[ARTGP]

This kind of list seems pointless to me. Drivers from different disciplines cannot possibly be ranked alongside one another.  Also, riding a MotoGP bike or driving a WRC car is a level of difficulty/insanity which I feel is not captured adequately in the rankings.

 

I thought it was funny that Antonio Fuoco was the highest ranked Ferrari driver.  I don't have a problem with his ranking by itself (his pole laps at Sebring and Le Mans were huge), but strange that Leclerc and Sainz are so far behind. Sainz had pole in Monza and won a race.  Then again this is exactly why it doesn't make sense to me to compare across disciplines. 

Edited by ARTGP, 22 December 2023 - 17:18.

[Yoshi]

Norris P3 lol - in front of Alonso and Hamilton.
I've seen enough.

Edited by Yoshi, 22 December 2023 - 19:44.

[KWSN - DSM]

Norris P3 lol - in front of Alonso and Hamilton.

 

Behind Hamilton.

[JHSingo]

 

Too hard, I can make it to 10.

1. Verstappen
2. Hamilton
3. Norris
4. Rovanpera
5. Palou
6. Kobayashi
7. Pourchaire
8. Vesti
9. Bortoleto
10. Buemi

 

 

Hamilton and Norris #2 and #3 when they won a grand total of nothing between them all year? 

 

Norris choked away pretty much every chance he had to seriously threaten Verstappen this year. So I'm not sure why he's the third best driver in all of motorsport in 2023 in Autosport's list, or yours. 

[KWSN - DSM]

You do not need to win to be in top 50, it is what you do with the equipment at your disposal, how you perform compared to your team mate, how you perform compared to the field - I am not trying to justify my list, I have made clear it is based on my likes, dislikes and we can add emotions.

 

By your Norris comment, you clearly have emotional dislike at some level towards him

 

It mean nothing in the bigger scope of things, but as 'persons as we know them through the media' I am not really keen on them, I pride myself in not excluding a talent just because I have that view (emotional feeling).

 

For any list of 'best' there is zero correct answer, I will always look at the drivers in the best series over them 2 or 3 levels removed, any driver moving up will thread the eye of a needle getting smaller and smaller - Winning races and championships in FRECA and F4 mean nothing compared to races and championships in F3, F2 and Indycar.

 

But that is just me.

 

Anyone else going to actually post at least a top 10?

[KWSN - DSM]

This kind of list seems pointless to me. Drivers from different disciplines cannot possibly be ranked alongside one another.  Also, riding a MotoGP bike or driving a WRC car is a level of difficulty/insanity which I feel is not captured adequately in the rankings.

 

I thought it was funny that Antonio Fuoco was the highest ranked Ferrari driver.  I don't have a problem with his ranking by itself (his pole laps at Sebring and Le Mans were huge), but strange that Leclerc and Sainz are so far behind. Sainz had pole in Monza and won a race.  Then again this is exactly why it doesn't make sense to me to compare across disciplines. 

 

I disagree to the point that we over the long winter can discuss and disagree over a lot more drivers and series that we normally do, with the very real possibility that we will learn something, swaying us to think something else than we started with.

 

Racing is not just lists and championships, it is all that makes the championships what they are, for me - The drivers.

[messy]

I used to really enjoy the Top 50 every year, but, like the standard of Autosport in general, it’s nosedived in recent years. Can I say that here? Oops. Could almost have guessed half the list. Perez poor season but still second in WEC? #50, at least taking the place of the 50+ touring car or GT stalwart that usually gets that place. Big British bias, Formula E hugely overrated, the usual.

[Metronazol]

 

I do not follow enough of the series having drivers on the list to have a relevant take on the list.

 

Like most others I am completely swayed and opinioned by my personal likes and dislikes, which I can still not stretch to those series I paid zero attention to, and which I find highly questionable as being represented at all 

 

So based on that a little scatter-shooting across the list

• Alex Palou is not the 2nd best driver in the world 2023
• Antonio Fucco is not the 7th best driver in the world 2023
• Jake Dennis is not the 9th best driver in the world 2023
• Wlliam Byron is not among the 50 best drivers in the world 2023
• Mitch Evans in not among the 50 best drivers in the world 2023
• No driver from Supercars are among the 50 best drivers in the world 2023
• No driver from BTCC are among the 50 best drivers in the world 2023
• Lando Norris is a top 10 driver in the world.
• Lewis Hamilton is the 2nd best driver in the world.

 

I wouldnt sleep on Palou - some of what he did in Indy this year was exceptional.

[KWSN - DSM]

I wouldnt sleep on Palou - some of what he did in Indy this year was exceptional.

 

I do not think placing him 5th on my list is really sleeping on him.

[Muppetmad]

For me, naming the top 50 drivers of 2023 must surely be a different exercise from naming the top 50 drivers in the world full stop. It's a list that I think should acknowledge standout achievements throughout motorsport this year, rather than drivers who have done a purely solid job in F1. Honestly, Verstappen is the only F1 driver I'd put in the top 5 this year.

[Anderis]

  Then again this is exactly why it doesn't make sense to me to compare across disciplines. 

I think so each time I see F1 rejects getting high positions in this ranking due to success in other series over drivers who compared much more favourably in F1 and are still in F1. I don't think there's much evidence for the balance of skills between the two sets of drivers switching to F1 rejects over time. There's also impossible to prove the contrary, though. But I'm still sceptical of some of this judgement.
 

Edited by Anderis, 22 December 2023 - 20:35.

[ArnageWRC]

Given that Lando was the 2nd best driver in F1 this year his ranking seems perfectly fair.

 

How so? It's not an F1 list, but a world of motorsport list. I'd say he's lucky to be in the Top 10......more bias towards F1 no doubt.

[ForzaFormula]

Norris P3 lol - in front of Alonso and Hamilton.
I've seen enough.

Crazy bottled it again a few times to win a race and over hyped as usual.

[MKSixer]

I think so each time I see F1 rejects getting high positions in this ranking due to success in other series over drivers who compared much more favourably in F1 and are still in F1. I don't think there's much evidence for the balance of skills between the two sets of drivers switching to F1 rejects over time. There's also impossible to prove the contrary, though. But I'm still sceptical of some of this judgement.
 

Exactly and add to the list the drivers who petered out in the lesser formulae to this list and it's a wrap.  The caveat is the fact that the ranking is for the specified year and their performance in that time period.  In that vein, I wouldn't even have PER on the list.  He should only be in a top 100 list. Certainly not top 50.

[Shambolic]

• Lewis Hamilton is the 2nd best driver in the world.

 

It's arguable he's even the 2nd best driver in F1, and F1 is not the world.

[southernstars]

Van Gisbergen stepped into not just a car he'd never driven before, but a style of racing he'd never driven before, at a track he'd never driven before, in slippery wet-dry conditions, with the steering wheel the wrong way around, the pedals the wrong way around and gauges reading in a system he doesn't know, and then promptly walked all over a field of experienced NASCAR drivers to win, and he's only twentieth?

[Acathla]

I'd definately swap Norris and Alonso. Don't know what went wrong there, but it sure did. 

 

Maybe it's up to us,  - the forum- to create a "better" list? 

[red stick]

It's a list, folks, second only to the "man on the street' interview as a lazy form of journalistic space-filling.  It tells us much about the interests and predilections of the persons who filed it, as the responses tell us much, sometimes way too much (drivers from x discipline have no place on any such gathering!) about the persons who post here.

 

It's not a set of stone tablets.  

[noriaki]

Van Gisbergen stepped into not just a car he'd never driven before, but a style of racing he'd never driven before, at a track he'd never driven before, in slippery wet-dry conditions, with the steering wheel the wrong way around, the pedals the wrong way around and gauges reading in a system he doesn't know, and then promptly walked all over a field of experienced NASCAR drivers to win, and he's only twentieth?

 

Yeah, we all knew SvG was amazing but turning up at a Cup Series race and winning it with no previous NASCAR experience whatsoever is the maddest thing to have happened in motorsport this century. Compare that result with literally anybody else's first NASCAR races on any tier of the pyramid, let alone Cup Series... it's something that simply can't be done.

[KWSN - DSM]

Yeah, we all knew SvG was amazing but turning up at a Cup Series race and winning it with no previous NASCAR experience whatsoever is the maddest thing to have happened in motorsport this century. Compare that result with literally anybody else's first NASCAR races on any tier of the pyramid, let alone Cup Series... it's something that simply can't be done.

 

Maybe NASCAR is not all that after all?