53 replies to this topic

[Speedometer]

As chosen by the drivers:

 

1)Verstappen

2)Hamilton

3)Alonso

4)Norris

5)Leclerc

6)Sainz

7)Albon

8)Piastri

9)Gasly

10) Perez

 

 

https://www.formula1...2A9TIc8j7B.html

 

 

Personally, I wouldn't have put Perez in the top 10.  He was very poor for a long stretch of the season and in a car as dominant as the RB19, he should've had P2 wrapped up far earlier.  Any thoughts?

[noikeee]

It's like the team principals ranking, it's obvious they just give quick answers and don't think as long and as hard about this as we do.

Everyone forgot about George lol

[Speedometer]

It's like the team principals ranking, it's obvious they just give quick answers and don't think as long and as hard about this as we do.

Everyone forgot about George lol

Both George and Checo had poor seasons but at least George was able to match Lewis in qualifying and unlike Checo,  George didn't have the luxury of a dominant car to bail  him out.   I would happily replace George with Checo at number 10.

[lewislorenzo]

Checo must be mates with all the drivers😂

[noikeee]

Checo must be mates with all the drivers😂

Or he's got Max Yuki and Daniel voting for him...

[RacingFan10]

I would have put Alonso and Norris in top 2 and 3 above Ham

[DW46]

As chosen by the drivers:

1)Verstappen
2)Hamilton
3)Alonso
4)Norris
5)Leclerc
6)Sainz
7)Albon
8)Piastri
9)Gasly
10) Perez


https://www.formula1...2A9TIc8j7B.html


Personally, I wouldn't have put Perez in the top 10. He was very poor for a long stretch of the season and in a car as dominant as the RB19, he should've had P2 wrapped up far earlier. Any thoughts?

Swap Perez for Russell or Ocon and that’s a pretty accurate I think. Strange year as the main notable was the gap from 1st to the rest.

[Beri]

Albon 7th is doing him short. His performances should have easily been top 5 worthy. Same as Piastri being 8th.

[Sterzo]

Apart from the obvious subjectivity of all these lists, there's a question which is rarely addressed: top in what sense?

 

Average performance during the year compared with others?

Overall career ranking, as revised by this season?

Merit of efforts given expectations and level of natural talent?

Impressiveness of someone's top few races?

[noikeee]

Apart from the obvious subjectivity of all these lists, there's a question which is rarely addressed: top in what sense?

Average performance during the year compared with others?
Overall career ranking, as revised by this season?
Merit of efforts given expectations and level of natural talent?
Impressiveness of someone's top few races?

Top as in some PR person or journalist asks the drivers "give me your top 10 drivers for 2023" and then they just quickly shoot names from the top of their head, and go do whatever next thing they have in their extremely busy schedule.

You're trying to make some deep sense of criteria when there is none.

[prty]

I would have put Alonso and Norris in top 2 and 3 above Ham

Hamilton didn't participate as far as I understood. Can the drivers vote for themselves? If not, that means Hamilton didn't have to give points to other drivers, but he received them, so that plays to his advantage.
But whether that had an influence or not in the final positions, I have no idea.

[Anderis]

Not too unreasonable, except Perez being in top10 over Russell.

[Speedometer]

Hamilton didn't participate as far as I understood. Can the drivers vote for themselves? If not, that means Hamilton didn't have to give points to other drivers, but he received them, so that plays to his advantage.
But whether that had an influence or not in the final positions, I have no idea.

This from the article:

 

 

"The rules permit drivers to vote for themselves – and, as has been the case in previous votes, not all of them chose to do so – with each list submitted on the proviso it would remain secret."

 

So yes, the drivers can vote for themselves.  The sentence "not all of them chose to do so" implies some did in fact vote for themselves.

[messy]

I think it's pretty good till you get to #10. How anyone, let alone the actual drivers, can think Perez deserves to be rated above Russell, is beyond me.

[DW46]

This from the article:


"The rules permit drivers to vote for themselves – and, as has been the case in previous votes, not all of them chose to do so – with each list submitted on the proviso it would remain secret."

So yes, the drivers can vote for themselves. The sentence "not all of them chose to do so" implies some did in fact vote for themselves.

Tell me your referring to Esteban without telling me your referring to Esteban.

[noikeee]

I think it's pretty good till you get to #10. How anyone, let alone the actual drivers, can think Perez deserves to be rated above Russell, is beyond me.

The only logical conclusion is they all hate George.

Specially when you take into account they could vote for themselves... That's a guaranteed 10 points from George to George isn't it

[Kao18]

This from the article:


"The rules permit drivers to vote for themselves – and, as has been the case in previous votes, not all of them chose to do so – with each list submitted on the proviso it would remain secret."

So yes, the drivers can vote for themselves. The sentence "not all of them chose to do so" implies some did in fact vote for themselves.

Could just mean not all drivers chose to vote period.

As Hamilton chose to do so. I am curious why he does not participate in these things. He seems to be the only one. Seems such a small effort.

[Taxi]

Basically the same as mine up 6th, then a few swaped positions between Piastri/Albon/Gasly. And I put Russel over Perez. He managed to be way closer to Hamilton than Checo to Max. 

[eab]

The only logical conclusion is they all hate George.

Specially when you take into account they could vote for themselves... That's a guaranteed 10 points from George to George isn't it

If he's given himself a mere 10, Reticent Russell springs to mind.

[Massa]

Swap Perez for Russell or Ocon and that’s a pretty accurate I think. Strange year as the main notable was the gap from 1st to the rest.

Pretty accurate ?

As if you know better than them

[eab]

Could just mean not all drivers chose to vote period.

Not if it's explicitly stated that all the other 19 drivers (with Ricciardo as the 'second AT') did take part in the vote.

 

As Hamilton chose to do so. I am curious why he does not participate in these things. He seems to be the only one. Seems such a small effort.

 

And you're contradicting yourself here. At first you state it "could mean that not all drivers chose to vote period", then, while taking aim at him, you say "Hamilton seems to be the only one who doesn't participate".

 

[mod edit]please don’t label drivers with serious personality disorders[/mod edit]

[Kao18]

Not if it's explicitly stated that all the other 19 drivers (with Ricciardo as the 'second AT') did take part in the vote.

And you're contradicting yourself here. At first you state it "could mean that not all drivers chose to vote period", then, while taking aim at him, you say "Hamilton seems to be the only one who doesn't participate".

Not sure what you’re on about with the contradicting stuff.

Like I said, seems like a small effort.

No need to get so defensive.

[DW46]

Pretty accurate ?

As if you know better than them

If they think Checo was 10th best driver this year then yeah, looks like I do 👍

[DW46]

Could just mean not all drivers chose to vote period.

As Hamilton chose to do so. I am curious why he does not participate in these things. He seems to be the only one. Seems such a small effort.

You’d be appalled if you ever heard about his disdain for Croydon.

[ANF]

Did Gasly put himself at the top or how the hell did he make the list?

[DW46]

Ok I give up. Was hoping for better, as I am genuinely curious why Hamilton does not participate in these things (just like the secret santa thingy) but its just the classic response from one of his die hard fans that gets overly defensive and throws in personal attacks.

Happy to take the point.

If you were Hamilton (whose words are so thoroughly examined by so many vocal media critics - see any topic with the words Hamilton or Lewis for reference) what’s the benefit of participating in a driver poll for him? Outcomes are;

- Vote for yourself (conceited - see prior dig at Ocon)
- Vote for others (you lack confidence)
- Praise George (taking yourself up)
- Don’t praise George (tension)
- Put Ver top (cue double edged media digs)
- Put Ver second (petty)
- Don’t out Alonso top two (inevitably called out by Fred)
- Put Charles top (he’s after Carlos seat)
- Put Carlos top (he’s after Charles seat)
- Cut Perez from top 10 (it’s a dig at RB car advantage)

Like or loathe the man, he’s exceptional at gauging the long term mood. Obvs example been 21 where I’m fairly certain 19 other drivers and every fan in the world would have thrown a mega strop, he goes for well done, hugs and radio silence occasionally drops the word manipulated two years later. It’s about mature as it gets in sport.

Other options are available, he was supposedly dating Shakira at one point, I’d imagine in that case he’s dashing to the plane ;)

[DW46]

Happy to take the point.

If you were Hamilton (whose words are so thoroughly examined by so many vocal media critics - see any topic with the words Hamilton or Lewis for reference) what’s the benefit of participating in a driver poll for him? Outcomes are;

- Vote for yourself (conceited - see prior dig at Ocon)
- Vote for others (you lack confidence)
- Praise George (taking yourself up)
- Don’t praise George (tension)
- Put Ver top (cue double edged media digs)
- Put Ver second (petty)
- Don’t out Alonso top two (inevitably called out by Fred)
- Put Charles top (he’s after Carlos seat)
- Put Carlos top (he’s after Charles seat)
- Cut Perez from top 10 (it’s a dig at RB car advantage)

Like or loathe the man, he’s exceptional at gauging the long term mood. Obvs example been 21 where I’m fairly certain 19 other drivers and every fan in the world would have thrown a mega strop, he goes for well done, hugs and radio silence occasionally drops the word manipulated two years later. It’s about mature as it gets in sport.

Other options are available, he was supposedly dating Shakira at one point, I’d imagine in that case he’s dashing to the plane ;)

As a secondary point, I’m not satisfied until De Vries submits his top 10 with Yuki at #1.

[Ivanhoe]

Let’s get back on topic guys, if you want to discuss this further between the two of you, there’s the pm option.

[noikeee]

Happy to take the point.

If you were Hamilton (whose words are so thoroughly examined by so many vocal media critics - see any topic with the words Hamilton or Lewis for reference) what’s the benefit of participating in a driver poll for him? Outcomes are;

- Vote for yourself (conceited - see prior dig at Ocon)
- Vote for others (you lack confidence)
- Praise George (taking yourself up)
- Don’t praise George (tension)
- Put Ver top (cue double edged media digs)
- Put Ver second (petty)
- Don’t out Alonso top two (inevitably called out by Fred)
- Put Charles top (he’s after Carlos seat)
- Put Carlos top (he’s after Charles seat)
- Cut Perez from top 10 (it’s a dig at RB car advantage)

Like or loathe the man, he’s exceptional at gauging the long term mood. Obvs example been 21 where I’m fairly certain 19 other drivers and every fan in the world would have thrown a mega strop, he goes for well done, hugs and radio silence occasionally drops the word manipulated two years later. It’s about mature as it gets in sport.

Other options are available, he was supposedly dating Shakira at one point, I’d imagine in that case he’s dashing to the plane ;)

Isn't the voting secret?

[thefinalapex]

Isn't the voting secret?

I think it is yes😂

[Kao18]

Happy to take the point.

If you were Hamilton (whose words are so thoroughly examined by so many vocal media critics - see any topic with the words Hamilton or Lewis for reference) what’s the benefit of participating in a driver poll for him? Outcomes are;

- Vote for yourself (conceited - see prior dig at Ocon)
- Vote for others (you lack confidence)
- Praise George (taking yourself up)
- Don’t praise George (tension)
- Put Ver top (cue double edged media digs)
- Put Ver second (petty)
- Don’t out Alonso top two (inevitably called out by Fred)
- Put Charles top (he’s after Carlos seat)
- Put Carlos top (he’s after Charles seat)
- Cut Perez from top 10 (it’s a dig at RB car advantage)

Like or loathe the man, he’s exceptional at gauging the long term mood. Obvs example been 21 where I’m fairly certain 19 other drivers and every fan in the world would have thrown a mega strop, he goes for well done, hugs and radio silence occasionally drops the word manipulated two years later. It’s about mature as it gets in sport.

Other options are available, he was supposedly dating Shakira at one point, I’d imagine in that case he’s dashing to the plane ;)

 

 

Thats the thing though, its all anonymous so there is no downside really or risk of any of such outcomes.

 

But I guess no one ever asked him why he doesn't participate in these things.

 

It seems so silly, Same for the secret santa thing which is just a bit of light fun. And no this is not some smear campaign, just something that sticks out as he is the only one not participating (as far as I know, unless he used to before?).

 

But back on topic I guess.

Edited by Kao18, 29 December 2023 - 11:34.

[DW46]

Isn't the voting secret?

So secret Kao18 on the internet knows who did and didn’t vote.

[DW46]

Thats the thing though, its all anonymous so there is no downside really or risk of any of such outcomes.

But I guess no one ever asked him why he doesn't participate in these things.

It seems so silly, Same for the secret santa thing which is just a bit of light fun. And no this is not some smear campaign, just something that sticks out as he is the only one not participating (as far as I know, unless he used to before?).

Again if it’s secret, how did you know he didn’t vote? Or are we saying it’s the way people vote that’s secret ballot?

[AlexPrime]

Fair list

[Kao18]

Again if it’s secret, how did you know he didn’t vote? Or are we saying it’s the way people vote that’s secret ballot?

 

Yep.

[DW46]

Yep.

In which case it’s the same for everyone so the answers either Shakira or doesn’t give a ****. 😂

[RacingFan10]

Hamilton didn't participate as far as I understood. Can the drivers vote for themselves? If not, that means Hamilton didn't have to give points to other drivers, but he received them, so that plays to his advantage.
But whether that had an influence or not in the final positions, I have no idea.

 

Then to make things fair I would remove from the list any driver who didn't participate like the others.

[messy]

Did Gasly put himself at the top or how the hell did he make the list?

Because he had a genuinely good season?

[prty]

Ok I give up. Was hoping for better, as I am genuinely curious why Hamilton does not participate in these things (just like the secret santa thingy) but its just the classic response from one of his die hard fans that gets overly defensive and throws in personal attacks.

 

I read that he negotiated it out in his contract. And that he found secret Santa childish.

[Laptom]

I would have put Alonso and Norris in top 2 and 3 above Ham

Me too, Hamilton was really off the first half of the season and was finally back in order the 2nd half. Don't understand the Perez bashing, because Russell and Hamilton also had really off days last year.

For me, Alonso, Albon, Piastri and Norris would complete the top5.

[noikeee]

Me too, Hamilton was really off the first half of the season and was finally back in order the 2nd half. Don't understand the Perez bashing, because Russell and Hamilton also had really off days last year.

For me, Alonso, Albon, Piastri and Norris would complete the top5.

Neither Lewis nor George were constantly getting knocked out in Q2 whilst their teammates were on pole with the outright best car. Like Perez was for what seemed like more than half the year.

Piastri was regularly dead slow on some stints and finishing races 20, 30 seconds behind Lando. He had some real flashes of potential that are very promising for such a young inexperienced driver, but for now he has no business being on a top 5 at all.

[Gravelngrass]

The interesting part would be to know who voted for himself…

[eab]

Wouldn't be surprised if most of them did so.

[Kao18]

Neither Lewis nor George were constantly getting knocked out in Q2 whilst their teammates were on pole with the outright best car. Like Perez was for what seemed like more than half the year.

Piastri was regularly dead slow on some stints and finishing races 20, 30 seconds behind Lando. He had some real flashes of potential that are very promising for such a young inexperienced driver, but for now he has no business being on a top 5 at all.

 

In the the team principals rating Perez is 10th as well, perhaps the drivers and teams believe Max made Perez' performance look worse then it actually was.

[eab]

Or it could be that Perez made Max' performance look waaay better than it actually was.

[MissingApex]

Or it could be that Perez made Max' performance look waaay better than it actually was.

How does that make sense?

[eab]

How? I don't see many other explanations than that Perez' abysmal handling of the most dominant car in the sports' history, made that of his teammate

look as if it were at the other side of the performance spectrum.

If you understand the reasoning behind the post I effectively replied to, you should be able to understand mine, as it is the same but with an opposite perspective.

[noikeee]

Max has been making drivers look bad for a while. I don't think "Perez is what made Max look good" stands up to much scrutiny.

Still, I do think Perez's performance was particularly bad and below average. Both things aren't mutually exclusive. Albon's recent admission that it's frustrating that he was actually closer to Max on average laptime than Perez, and wasn't recognised as such because the car wasn't as good, seemed fair to me.

[messy]

The interesting part would be to know who voted for himself…

I’d bet my life savings Alonso did.

[RPM40]

Max has been making drivers look bad for a while. I don't think "Perez is what made Max look good" stands up to much scrutiny.

Still, I do think Perez's performance was particularly bad and below average. Both things aren't mutually exclusive. Albon's recent admission that it's frustrating that he was actually closer to Max on average laptime than Perez, and wasn't recognised as such because the car wasn't as good, seemed fair to me.

 

Its a weird topic, because Verstappen is obviously an extremely good driver and would be strong next to any other driver, but having a driver in the second seat who is incapable of beating/challenging him and a dominant car that wins every race certainly makes him look good.

 

If you put Leclerc in the second seat, while i'm not sure he'd beat Verstappen overall it would at least be a competition. 

 

Even the type of drivers people talk about like Gasly and Albon who are both competent drivers, neither are what you would consider among the best.