11493 replies to this topic

[Claudius]

The team leads the WCC and if things run normally, this shall be wrapped in Qatar.

Focus is not Norris laying a mark or Oscar proving himself.

Focus is winning the fuc*ing WCC title.

 

Not mutually exclusive. 

[Claudius]

I don't think Norris would disagree with you either. He has been scrappy by his own admission The question is more, did his own driving ultimately comprimise his shot at the title? I would say no. There are a number of factors, which while not individually decisive, have gathered to impact his season, Norris being only one of them (broadly speaking the others would be the team's at times poor operations, Piastri's and other teams' form, and Verstappen's dubious tactics). Especially after the summer break the idea that he could and indeed should win the vast majority of races to become WDC was ridiculous (based on basic F1 history and how he and the team had acted up to that point), raising false hope and expectations. Now Norris is being trashed on the basis of those unrealistic expectations. The only person on the grid who could have even vaguely done that would have been Verstappen, and well we all see the quandry there.

 

What is interesting is that despite McLaren being on average the fastest car since Miami (sometimes with a big advantage), Max has still scored more points.

A damning verdict of the Lando/McLaren combo. If they want the title next year they better find another gear. 

[rodlamas]

Not mutually exclusive.

Mclaren fans are not intesrested on the mental masturbati*n this thing became this year with british and australian children just discussing sex of the angels.

WCC is what matters. Nothing else.

Edited by rodlamas, 19 November 2024 - 10:56.

[mclarensmps]

What is interesting is that despite McLaren being on average the fastest car since Miami (sometimes with a big advantage), Max has still scored more points.

A damning verdict of the Lando/McLaren combo. If they want the title next year they better find another gear. 

Just gonna ignore the fact that Max shunted Lando out of the race (and still ended up scoring points) on one of those occasions where the McLaren had the big advantage huh? 

[Claudius]

Just gonna ignore the fact that Max shunted Lando out of the race (and still ended up scoring points) on one of those occasions where the McLaren had the big advantage huh? 

 

Lando had plenty of races to take advantage of the car if we´re being honest. Which he didn´t for various reasons. 

[GlenWatkins]

Mclaren fans are not intesrested on the mental masturbati*n this thing became this year with british and australian children just discussing sex of the angels.

WCC is what matters. Nothing else.

100% agree

[Laptom]

Just gonna ignore the fact that Max shunted Lando out of the race (and still ended up scoring points) on one of those occasions where the McLaren had the big advantage huh? 

 

Austria? Even Lando said he should have giving Max more room.

Max was already giving more room than average overtakes in that corner (Lewis, Charles and others), but Lando messed up his own race with this shunt.

[Colbul1]

Austria? Even Lando said he should have giving Max more room.

Max was already giving more room than average overtakes in that corner (Lewis, Charles and others), but Lando messed up his own race with this shunt.

Can you provide quotes for that because I'm pretty sure he didn't.  In fact it's 1 one of the times Lando has seemed most angry and upset, which actually caught Max by surprise.

Edited by Colbul1, 19 November 2024 - 16:20.

[ARTGP]

 Especially after the summer break the idea that he could and indeed should win the vast majority of races to become WDC was ridiculous (based on basic F1 history and how he and the team had acted up to that point), raising false hope and expectations. Now Norris is being trashed on the basis of those unrealistic expectations.

 

I think that to write Norris off before the summer break ended is disrespectful to Norris. What is the value in downplaying and/or turning your back on a competitor?  Unlike people online who are now claiming the championship was "make-believe", the two teams involved were spending millions of dollars, rushing updates, taking engine penalties, and using team orders to fight for it. 

Edited by ARTGP, 19 November 2024 - 17:19.

[KWSN - DSM]

What is interesting is that despite McLaren being on average the fastest car since Miami (sometimes with a big advantage), Max has still scored more points.

A damning verdict of the Lando/McLaren combo. If they want the title next year they better find another gear. 

 

Would that not be the Lando/Oscar/McLaren combo?

[baddog]

Would that not be the Lando/Oscar/McLaren combo?

 Well they are in front in the WCC soo

[Claudius]

Would that not be the Lando/Oscar/McLaren combo?

 

This is about Landos season. Oscars role is something else. 

[Ragamuffin]

I think that to write Norris off before the summer break ended is disrespectful to Norris. What is the value in downplaying and/or turning your back on a competitor?  Unlike people online who are now claiming the championship was "make-believe", the two teams involved were spending millions of dollars, rushing updates, taking engine penalties, and using team orders to fight for it. 

I never wrote him off, I just never saw it as the straight forward task many framed it as. Realistically, it was an outside shot at best. The kind of points advantage MV had is rarely clawed back. 

[baddog]

I never wrote him off, I just never saw it as the straight forward task many framed it as. Realistically, it was an outside shot at best. The kind of points advantage MV had is rarely clawed back. 

 

Yeah that's how I saw it. Mclaren assuredly had the speed but it was a big ask to get everything right every weekend and also need your rivals to screw up.

[PrinceBira]

I never wrote him off, I just never saw it as the straight forward task many framed it as. Realistically, it was an outside shot at best. The kind of points advantage MV had is rarely clawed back.

Do you remember how many points Leclerc was ahead in 2022…?

[Ragamuffin]

Do you remember how many points Leclerc was ahead in 2022…?

You mean when Verstappen won 15 races to Leclerc's 3? 

[PrinceBira]

You mean when Verstappen won 15 races to Leclerc's 3?

I’ll help you a bit. Leclerc was 46 points ahead. So yeah, big leads can be eroded quickly. Especially if you execute well in a strong car like Verstappen did in 2022.

Verstappen clearly had a larger car advantage in the second half of 2022 vs what Mclaren had (/has) this year. But then again, Verstappen already closed the gap within a few races when the cars were still equal.

[Ragamuffin]

I’ll help you a bit. Leclerc was 46 points ahead. So yeah, big leads can be eroded quickly. Especially if you execute well in a strong car like Verstappen did in 2022.

Verstappen clearly had a larger car advantage in the second half of 2022 vs what Mclaren had (/has) this year. But then again, Verstappen already closed the gap within a few races when the cars were still equal.

Well thanks for the help it's aways appreciated. And there was me thinking Leclerc's lead was built up from Verstappen's misfortune, then eroded through his own misfortune.

[PrinceBira]

Well thanks for the help it's aways appreciated. And there was me thinking Leclerc's lead was built up from Verstappen's misfortune, then eroded through his own misfortune.

So you agree your original statement on big leads was perhaps a bit too strong?

Or did you already know before the summer broke that Verstappen wouldn’t have any misfortune?

[Ragamuffin]

So you agree your original statement on big leads was perhaps a bit too strong?

Or did you already know before the summer broke that Verstappen wouldn’t have any misfortune?

I can see what you're getting at but it feels like you're being obtuse to try and score a point, or you just like arguing. I am actually struggling to find a way to spell it out that isn't just, hey, look at the scorecard. That wasn't some heroic comeback by Verstappen, fighting tooth and nail. That was, oh my car failed, now your car failed, we're even, now I will trounce you. At the start of a season in a new era. Cars just don't fail regularly this far into the regs, so the chances of Verstappen having that kind of misfortune again, this year, were practically nil.

 

And even if you are right, what makes my statement too strong? When was the last time a big lead was hauled in? 2012? And before that? 2007 maybe, when a rookie Hamilton and McLaren sh*t the bed? Can't see Verstappen doing that... and before that? Like i say, rarely. 

[PrinceBira]

I can see what you're getting at but it feels like you're being obtuse to try and score a point, or you just like arguing. I am actually struggling to find a way to spell it out that isn't just, hey, look at the scorecard. That wasn't some heroic comeback by Verstappen, fighting tooth and nail. That was, oh my car failed, now your car failed, we're even, now I will trounce you. At the start of a season in a new era. Cars just don't fail regularly this far into the regs, so the chances of Verstappen having that kind of misfortune again, this year, were practically nil.

And even if you are right, what makes my statement too strong? When was the last time a big lead was hauled in? 2012? And before that? 2007 maybe, when a rookie Hamilton and McLaren sh*t the bed? Can't see Verstappen doing that... and before that? Like i say, rarely.

I’m merely pointing out that at that point in time, right around the summer break nobody could know with certainty how things have played out. It’s too much Captain hindsight for me to now proclaim it was already clear back then.

2022 shows how fast points can swing. Same in 2021 if you remember. Only Silverstone and Hungary alone resulted in a swing of 41 (?) points.


As why it doesn’t happen that often is pretty clear: in years where one team is dominant from the start it can’t happen anyway. It can happen much more easily in years when the cars are closer (2021, 2022), or when 1 car loses its advantage in the course of the season.

But you’re right, it’s drifting away from the Mclaren team thread. Happy to agree to disagree so that people can talk about Mclaren, Lando, Oscar and Las Vegas.

[Ragamuffin]

I’m merely pointing out that at that point in time, right around the summer break nobody could know with certainty how things have played out. It’s too much Captain hindsight for me to now proclaim it was already clear back then.

2022 shows how fast points can swing. Same in 2021 if you remember. Only Silverstone and Hungary alone resulted in a swing of 41 (?) points.


As why it doesn’t happen that often is pretty clear: in years where one team is dominant from the start it can’t happen anyway. It can happen much more easily in years when the cars are closer (2021, 2022), or when 1 car loses its advantage in the course of the season.

But you’re right, it’s drifting away from the Mclaren team thread. Happy to agree to disagree so that people can talk about Mclaren, Lando, Oscar and Las Vegas.

Points can swing fast, I agree, but you're talking about a short burst in a matter of races as though it's somehow definiitve, whereas Norris (or Hamilton or whoever) needs something more sustained when coming from so far back, especially with longer seasons and more typical fluctuations. Luck rarely goes one way for long (although it can look definitive if the timing is right). Whilst that points swing can bring you back into closer contention it's no guarantee of success. Think Kimi in 2005, MS in 2006, Vettel '09, Hamilton in '16. That's a lot of crowns that couldn't claw it back, hard as they tried and as well as they did, so it seems harsh to judge Norris (not that you are, but in general) as though it's a fundamental flaw. 

 

Like you say though, let's get back to the team.

[New Britain]

Points can swing fast, I agree, but you're talking about a short burst in a matter of races as though it's somehow definiitve, whereas Norris (or Hamilton or whoever) needs something more sustained when coming from so far back, especially with longer seasons and more typical fluctuations. Luck rarely goes one way for long (although it can look definitive if the timing is right). Whilst that points swing can bring you back into closer contention it's no guarantee of success. Think Kimi in 2005, MS in 2006, Vettel '09, Hamilton in '16. That's a lot of crowns that couldn't claw it back, hard as they tried and as well as they did, so it seems harsh to judge Norris (not that you are, but in general) as though it's a fundamental flaw. 

 

Like you say though, let's get back to the team.

Bear in mind that McLaren has had two really good drivers taking points off each other, whilst IINM Perez has taken zero points off Verstappen all season.

[cbbcisace]

https://x.com/mclare...6477306332?s=61 Looks like the Mastercard branding will appear from now on

Edited by cbbcisace, Yesterday, 11:41.

[southernstars]

Re-watching Las Vegas from last year and FIA-ing hell, what was that strategy for Oscar, it was the dumbest thing alive. Oscar drove the wheels off that thing and managed just 1+1 points (10th and fastest lap).

[rodlamas]

Mastercard is now on the team gear. Let's see if the livery changes.

[rodlamas]

Re-watching Las Vegas from last year and FIA-ing hell, what was that strategy for Oscar, it was the dumbest thing alive. Oscar drove the wheels off that thing and managed just 1+1 points (10th and fastest lap).

We actually had very good pace last year. Everyone is talking about Ferrari being the strongest team for this year's race but if they have not yet started to warm their fronts, with the kind of temperature we are expecting, they can struggle a lot in qualify.

[BertoC]

Re-watching Las Vegas from last year and FIA-ing hell, what was that strategy for Oscar, it was the dumbest thing alive. Oscar drove the wheels off that thing and managed just 1+1 points (10th and fastest lap).

My memory is fuzzy, but didnt he started at the back and someone took his front wing off at some point?

[BertoC]

We actually had very good pace last year. Everyone is talking about Ferrari being the strongest team for this year's race but if they have not yet started to warm their fronts, with the kind of temperature we are expecting, they can struggle a lot in qualify.

If we manage to leave this weekend with a 30+ advantage in the WCC it will be a huge victory.

[New Britain]

My memory is fuzzy, but didnt he started at the back and someone took his front wing off at some point?

Started P18; contact w Hamilton during the race.

[SparkPlug86]

My memory is fuzzy, but didnt he started at the back and someone took his front wing off at some point?

 

Doesn't matter, he's from Oz and therefore 'hard done by' and deserves all the luck in the world by default in Southernstars eyes 

[keshav]

Seems like Ferrari may have the faster car here.

[AlcidioG]

Just gonna ignore the fact that Max shunted Lando out of the race (and still ended up scoring points) on one of those occasions where the McLaren had the big advantage huh? 

 

Even if you assume Lando would have won and get FL that would be +26 pts to Lando. Then it would also be safe to assume Max would have gotten second, so +8 pts. This would mean Lando would have been 18 pts closer now. But Lando/McLaren still wouldn't have done enough with the advantage they had.

 

And also not sure it's fair to say Max shunted him off in that race

Edited by AlcidioG, Yesterday, 16:31.

[BertoC]

Seems like Ferrari may have the faster car here.

I think so too, they are aiming for a 1-2. If we can split them with at least one car it will be an ok result to take for Qatar.

[Ivanhoe]

Big interview with Norris from TheRace

[rodlamas]

Seems like Ferrari may have the faster car here.

Ferrari will have major difficulties with tire temperature this weekend. Just look at their performance when track temps drop.

[MikeTekRacing]

Bear in mind that McLaren has had two really good drivers taking points off each other, whilst IINM Perez has taken zero points off Verstappen all season.

same thing with Mclaren and Ferrari in 2008. Massa and Kimi went back and forth, while Heikki didn't trouble Lewis.

Same things happen always when you have 2 team mates close to each other. There are pros and also cons to having 2 strong drivers

[baddog]

Bear in mind that McLaren has had two really good drivers taking points off each other, whilst IINM Perez has taken zero points off Verstappen all season.

 

This cuts both ways, Perez has failed to take points off Norris and Leclerc even more so that failing to do so from Verstappen. If RB have the best car one weekend and Max wins then Perez should be second. if he is 5th behind the rivals it is points lost for his teammate. It mostly balances out.

 

When there was a situation where Perez was routinely second or even gave up actual earned position to Verstappen you would be correct.

[kumo7]

The race is against all the grid. only way forward is to take 1-2. this season has still this momentum to make Norris ends in front of Oscar. WDC is not dead, means alive. next year is another story. i do think that McLaren can beat the Red Bull and Ferrari, both here. Go! McLaren. Let’s do it.

[southernstars]

My memory is fuzzy, but didnt he started at the back and someone took his front wing off at some point?

 

Both McLarens started at the back (I think P18 and P16), they were out in Q1. The team put him on a ridiculous H-H-M strategy after he got hit by Hamilton (the second time Hamilton hit him that year) and then just left him endlessly circulating on the middle stint in the vain hope for an SC. They finally boxed him with 10 laps to go, and put him out five seconds behind Gasly in 10th. Oscar drove like a madman to get that single point.

[GreenMachine]

Yes, IIRC he did a subline overtake there immediately after the pitstop.

[Clrnc]

Even if you assume Lando would have won and get FL that would be +26 pts to Lando. Then it would also be safe to assume Max would have gotten second, so +8 pts. This would mean Lando would have been 18 pts closer now. But Lando/McLaren still wouldn't have done enough with the advantage they had.

And also not sure it's fair to say Max shunted him off in that race

Max shunted him off in the race.

[Danicafreak]

https://www.planetf1...f1-mclaren-test

[keshav]

Oscar had great pace last year but got screwed with the safety car and strategy.