949 replies to this topic

[MKSixer]

Experiment setups never work for Hamilton, it's strange they try it over and over again and only for Hamilton. First stint on soft was a big waste as well, so useless. Didn't matter it the end anways but it can cost them in other races places. Tyre degradation is a big problem this year. It's like Ferrari and Mercedes have swapped. Their last big strength is gone.

We don't actually know this.  We only know the unsuccessful outcomes when they mention it was an experimental set-up.  When it is successful, they only say things like, "...the car performed well and was consistent in blah blah blah."  

[MikeTekRacing]

But the car was already designed (granted, the best engine had to be mated up) and the team didn't have to rebuild, just reduce it's size and abandon development.

Brawn lost stuff during 2009 as he could not keep people
Mercedes 2010 was low budget (read his book) and it took time from him to get their support. They went fully behind 2013.
The 2010-2012 cars were built on a low budget

[JimmyClark]

But the car was already designed (granted, the best engine had to be mated up) and the team didn't have to rebuild, just reduce it's size and abandon development.

Yes, so in the context of Toto having to downsize in regards to the budget gap it is comparable, which was the original point.

Also Toto had the benefit of other teams needing to do the same.

Edited by JimmyClark, 21 April 2024 - 18:23.

[w1Y]

Is it me or does this team.always struggle when they don't get 3 proper practice sessions.

[PitViperRacing]

No doubt Brawn left him a good setup, but you don’t go on for seven years crushing everything if you don’t have the skills to manage.

The last Brawn super team didn’t exactly go on for very long after he left either.

Don’t get me wrong, I would take Brawn over Wolff any day. But Wolff isn’t some joke who was swept along either.

Brawn also never had to rebuild a team with a budget restriction, which I think is the hard bit.

It wasn't a good setup, it was a dynasty set up. All Wolff had to do was not completely butcher it and it'd win itself. Not exactly a high bar.

Reality is Mercedes have been slowly going backwards for years in all areas under Wolff's watch.

[RhysL1218]

Is it me or does this team.always struggle when they don't get 3 proper practice sessions.

 

They're hardly a beacon of excellence when they do get 3 FP sessions 

[RoryFormula1]

It wasn't a good setup, it was a dynasty set up. All Wolff had to do was not completely butcher it and it'd win itself. Not exactly a high bar.

Reality is Mercedes have been slowly going backwards for years in all areas under Wolff's watch.

I don’t agree completely with this. I do think they got caught with their pants down in 2021. They have failed to figure these rules out and have not tackled glaring weaknesses. A strong leader would have recognized they messed up very early in 2022 season and started to take real corrective measures to address it, not double down. Their pit stops have been fairly mediocre and they are too slow with strategy.

What were Mercs pit stop times this race? I saw Red Bull had the fastest. Why isn’t Toto at least optimized this?

[chrcol]

In first stint, when both cars had clean air, Russell was consistently around 1 sec lap quicker than Lewis, a pretty big pace differential.

 

A race to forget for Lewis, not particularly great for Russell either.

[Bliman]

In first stint, when both cars had clean air, Russell was consistently around 1 sec lap quicker than Lewis, a pretty big pace differential.

 

A race to forget for Lewis, not particularly great for Russell either.

Both were on different tyres.

[MikeTekRacing]

Both were on different tyres.

Lewis was on softs and they clearly got back rather quickly
I was pissed he went backwards in the first laps.

[Claudius]

One thing I don’t understand when Lewis is complaining about tires and strategy, isn’t he involved in calling the strategy?

[chrcol]

One thing I don’t understand when Lewis is complaining about tires and strategy, isn’t he involved in calling the strategy?

Most of the time he trusts the teams call.

[P123]

One thing I don’t understand when Lewis is complaining about tires and strategy, isn’t he involved in calling the strategy?

 

I think more in terms of there being anything constructive said.  I know we only get snippets of radio comms, but aside from Lewis complaining, and a brief 'copy' response, was there any discussion on options- from strategy to settings, to how he was attacking a specific corner?  He was monumentally slower than George at stages, but it just came across as some fruitless whining, accompanied by a glib non-committal response from the pitwall.  Given they only tend to go backwards when they tinker with setup, it appears his side of the garage are grasping in the dark, with no answers to anything.

[krea]

One thing I don’t understand when Lewis is complaining about tires and strategy, isn’t he involved in calling the strategy?

Radio is a way for the driver to communicate with his race engineer and the other way around first, so there is always some messages made out of frustration in the heat of the moment, I think his comments outside of the car are way more interesting and he has that not healthy everyone is against me somehow mindset - deflecting his part of the problems.

Edited by krea, 22 April 2024 - 07:34.

[xstatic345]

I think more in terms of there being anything constructive said. I know we only get snippets of radio comms, but aside from Lewis complaining, and a brief 'copy' response, was there any discussion on options- from strategy to settings, to how he was attacking a specific corner? He was monumentally slower than George at stages, but it just came across as some fruitless whining, accompanied by a glib non-committal response from the pitwall. Given they only tend to go backwards when they tinker with setup, it appears his side of the garage are grasping in the dark, with no answers to anything.

In the first two stints there was a lot of conversation about rear tyre temperatures, they had high surface temps which were being managed by increasing amounts of lift and coast. Surprising for China as it is generally considered a front limited circuit. There was some talk about more management in turn 7/8 to get make the time up in 9/10.

He was rather upset that they didn't pit before the cars in front. He was telling them the tyres were finished but wasn't forceful enough, perhaps his signature complains coming back to bite.

[mstar]

I hope lewis takes none of his race team with him,  He needs a fresh start someone to analyse how he does things and provide different engineering solutions to how he wants to drive.  My issue with Bono has always been he has never engneered a bad car.  Even in the bad races in the dominant era, they had a PU which masked the car where they didnt need to engineer the car to extract laptime and lewis could drive around them as they had the pace.  So i am a little confused why Bono doesn't stand up to lewis and say "lewis good idea on set-up but it make the car worse lets try something in between where I THINK is best based on the data I know and people in our analysis are telling me". Or just discourage lewis and say i am the race engineer this is the best set-up lets not fck it up with radical stuff -the car based on X,Y race/session didn't like it.  

 

And yes i think lewis needs to stop trying to chase this magical set-up which will bring a chunk of time.  He needs to be like George and dudley and just do little methodical changes based on Evidence NOT guesswork like lewis and bono seem to be doing.  

Edited by mstar, 22 April 2024 - 11:50.

[Dalton007]

In first stint, when both cars had clean air, Russell was consistently around 1 sec lap quicker than Lewis, a pretty big pace differential.

 

A race to forget for Lewis, not particularly great for Russell either.

 

George made the softs work in the Sprint, but didn't work for Lewis in the race, so most likely not the same set-up as George's sprint race car.

[Bliman]

I think more in terms of there being anything constructive said. I know we only get snippets of radio comms, but aside from Lewis complaining, and a brief 'copy' response, was there any discussion on options- from strategy to settings, to how he was attacking a specific corner? He was monumentally slower than George at stages, but it just came across as some fruitless whining, accompanied by a glib non-committal response from the pitwall. Given they only tend to go backwards when they tinker with setup, it appears his side of the garage are grasping in the dark, with no answers to anything.

Was he so much slower when in free air and on the same tire?

[Boxerevo]

I believe they can be lost too, about the setup, like their tools showing that they should set the car someway to improve and coming on track, car doesn't deliver what they wanted.

 

Experimental stuff has the sound as: "I am clueless about how this car will behave anyway"

 

Trial and Error isn't peak engineering.

 

I believe it is Lewis and his side of garage fault, they should drive the crap car as it is and not try to perfect it to what he really wants to do with it.

 

He did a very good sprint, it is a shame the sunday performance.

Edited by Boxerevo, 22 April 2024 - 13:54.

[Boxerevo]

Was he so much slower when in free air and on the same tire?

Yes, like 0.7 to 1s if i remember reading with other fans. With a proper pace he could get Piastri.

Edited by Boxerevo, 22 April 2024 - 13:56.

[mclara]

I believe they can be lost too, about the setup, like their tools showing that they should set the car someway to improve and coming on track, car doesn't deliver what they wanted.

 

Experimental stuff has the sound as: "I am clueless about how this car will behave anyway"

 

Trial and Error isn't peak engineering.

 

I believe it is Lewis and his side of garage fault, they should drive the crap car as it is and not try to perfect it to what he really wants to do with it.

 

He did a very good sprint, it is a shame the sunday performance.

Mercedes is in a place where they dont know why the car is not producing the numbers they get out of the simulator. Which is more than just correlation issues.

Trying extreme things and non conventional setups might give them a clue about why things happens that they cant predict with their tools.

 

This is therefore completely different from other teams that are maybe hitting their targets but the car is just slow.

 

No point in trying to optomise things if the best you can get is a 6-7 or 8 place. Might as well use the race weekends as test sessions. Mercedes isnt the only team in f1 history to do that.

Edited by mclara, 22 April 2024 - 14:04.

[P123]

I believe they can be lost too, about the setup, like their tools showing that they should set the car someway to improve and coming on track, car doesn't deliver what they wanted.

 

Experimental stuff has the sound as: "I am clueless about how this car will behave anyway"

 

Trial and Error isn't peak engineering.

 

I believe it is Lewis and his side of garage fault, they should drive the crap car as it is and not try to perfect it to what he really wants to do with it.

 

He did a very good sprint, it is a shame the sunday performance.

 

I think this ties in with what Russell has been saying.  It's time for a different approach.  Instead of looking for a silver bullet and unlocking potential in the setup, they just need to accept that where they are is all the car has to give at present (4th or 5th quickest), and that whatever their sims are telling them about the brilliant downforce they have..... it's bullshit.  They won't find anything in the setup, because it isn't there to be found.  The talk about wonderful figures and huge gains (as they did last year), is just that.  It needs to come in the form of upgrades.  Not persistent guesswork on setup, hoping that that will lead to some sort of eureka moment.

[chrcol]

I hope lewis takes none of his race team with him,  He needs a fresh start someone to analyse how he does things and provide different engineering solutions to how he wants to drive.  My issue with Bono has always been he has never engneered a bad car.  Even in the bad races in the dominant era, they had a PU which masked the car where they didnt need to engineer the car to extract laptime and lewis could drive around them as they had the pace.  So i am a little confused why Bono doesn't stand up to lewis and say "lewis good idea on set-up but it make the car worse lets try something in between where I THINK is best based on the data I know and people in our analysis are telling me". Or just discourage lewis and say i am the race engineer this is the best set-up lets not fck it up with radical stuff -the car based on X,Y race/session didn't like it.  

 

And yes i think lewis needs to stop trying to chase this magical set-up which will bring a chunk of time.  He needs to be like George and dudley and just do little methodical changes based on Evidence NOT guesswork like lewis and bono seem to be doing.  

Maybe the onboard radio doesnt play everything but when I watched the last replay it took Bono an eternity to tell Lewis Russell's pace so Lewis didnt know how he was against the other car for ages.

[RedRabbit]

The Honda was 95% developed when Ross Brown bought the team for $1.00. And we have an idea of how he would do in a budget restricted environment as all others were catching them later in the season. In a longer season, they would have lost the WDC and WCC.

And please keep in mind that I'm a HUGE Ross Brown fan and respect his body of work in F1, immensely.

Honda paid them a severance that was only enough to operate the season (ie. Attend the race events). Button went through the whole season on one chassis.

The team was downsized to skeleton staff, and even during 2010, Brawn rebuilt the team believing the Resource Restriction Agreement would be in effect from the following year, so he was operating to a "budget cap" already.

The RRA was quietly abandoned and from there Mercedes opened the vault door.

The majority of the engineers from Brawn were in place right until approximately 2021, although the big names had started to leave from 2018 or so.

[Bliman]

Yes, like 0.7 to 1s if i remember reading with other fans. With a proper pace he could get Piastri.

That is very bad. I saw him sliding in so many corners.

[monolulu]

I think this ties in with what Russell has been saying.  It's time for a different approach.  Instead of looking for a silver bullet and unlocking potential in the setup, they just need to accept that where they are is all the car has to give at present (4th or 5th quickest), and that whatever their sims are telling them about the brilliant downforce they have..... it's bullshit.  They won't find anything in the setup, because it isn't there to be found.  The talk about wonderful figures and huge gains (as they did last year), is just that.  It needs to come in the form of upgrades.  Not persistent guesswork on setup, hoping that that will lead to some sort of eureka moment.

Hopefully Lewis will have learnt from the past 2 races that these setup experiments change an “ok” car into something horrible to drive. No silver bullets he just has to accept it & drive the W15 he has!  

[Boxerevo]

Hopefully Lewis will have learnt from the past 2 races that these setup experiments change an “ok” car into something horrible to drive. No silver bullets he just has to accept it & drive the W15 he has!  

He is doing it for years... Lewis became a bit spoiled, he knows what a real proper car is and wants that feeling.

 

Lewis needs what he did, to change team. Change the environment, where he will start to learn from 0 and will have to list and obey his new engineer, at least in the start.

 

AFTER the Ferrari change, if he still lost, it means he doesn't master, that he can't stay on top anymore, doesn't understand this regulation's car and better to retire.

 

He was doing a good job last year overall, but for some reason his head dropped.

 

He has to take his saturdays serious again.

Edited by Boxerevo, 22 April 2024 - 16:10.

[hollowstar]

He is doing it for years... Lewis became a bit spoiled, he knows what a real proper car is and wants that feeling.

 

Lewis needs what he did, to change team. Change the environment, where he will start to learn from 0 and will have to list and obey his new engineer, at least in the start.

 

AFTER the Ferrari change, if he still lost, it means he doesn't master, that he can't stay on top anymore, doesn't understand this regulation's car and better to retire.

 

He was doing a good job last year overall, but for some reason his head dropped.

 

He has to take his saturdays serious again.

This! Lewis and Mercedes have stayed together for too long now, to the point where it's become unhealthy.

 

Schumacher stayed at Ferrari for 11 seasons. Lewis is on his 12th at Mercedes and that might just be one too many.  There should be a limit in the rules : "no driver will spend more than a decade in one same team"

[xstatic345]

George made the softs work in the Sprint, but didn't work for Lewis in the race, so most likely not the same set-up as George's sprint race car.

For sure not the same setup but soft tyres with 19 laps fuel compared to 56 laps will rarely perform the same. Whenever they are out of position they take wild gambles, like Zandvoort with rain on the horizon and sticking hard tyres on it. Merc crazy decision making in the hope of a minor miracle.

[Autodromo]

 

He has to take his saturdays serious again.

Well, he did pretty well the first part of this past Saturday.

[w1Y]

He clearly does take Saturdays seriously but for me it seems obvious that (i) he just can't get confidence in this car; and (ii) he's likely lost a step in qualy.

I also think for a number of years he has.probably made his set up with the race in mind. That was OK when they had a great car but now that is.the difference between top 5 and bottom 5 of the top 10 and a lot.of.the time at risk to not getting to q3.

But really the main problem is that this car just isn't good. If merc, with all its tools, can't make some.big gains from upgrades then I truly believe they may be done until 2026 with not much confidence they will get that right.

I also have a hunch (based on nothing) that he is struggling with the heavier cars.

Saying all this I'll only be concerned of he doesn't start doing better when we get to Europe with a few upgrades on the car.

Edited by w1Y, 22 April 2024 - 23:44.

[krea]

We are talking about a driver who openly states his dislike for simulations and even track walks, guy kinda just wants a fast car out of nowhere.

[RoryFormula1]

We are talking about a driver who openly states his dislike for simulations and even track walks, guy kinda just wants a fast car out of nowhere.

If only Lewis did more track walks (especially after racing at some of these tracks for 20 years) and more simulator work, Mercedes would then understand ground effects, correlation issues would disappear, improve strategy, pit stops, etc. I hope he looks at this site to understand where it’s all gone wrong.

Edited by RoryFormula1, 23 April 2024 - 01:59.

[MKSixer]

If only Lewis did more track walks (especially after racing at some of these tracks for 20 years) and more simulator work, Mercedes would then understand ground effects, correlation issues would disappear, improve strategy, pit stops, etc. I hope he looks at this site to understand where it’s all gone wrong.

Well stated.  

 

Further, he should employ a driver coach like, Nico Rosberg or Karun Chandock.  Rosberg for his keen driving insights and Chandock as a master of the telestrator to point out all of the driving errors.  Step one would probably be a review of his 103 pole positions to deconstruct his many driving errors made over the nearly 2 decades of racing.

Edited by MKSixer, 23 April 2024 - 06:15.

[baddog]

Of course the suggestions/remarks here are often silly, but lashing out at everyone over that is no more than deflection from what is a very real problem for him. His form is poor and patchy right now, and presumably he DOESNT know how to fix it or he would have.

[krea]

If only Lewis did more track walks (especially after racing at some of these tracks for 20 years) and more simulator work, Mercedes would then understand ground effects, correlation issues would disappear, improve strategy, pit stops, etc. I hope he looks at this site to understand where it’s all gone wrong.

He better does

[MKSixer]

Of course the suggestions/remarks here are often silly, but lashing out at everyone over that is no more than deflection from what is a very real problem for him. His form is poor and patchy right now, and presumably he DOESNT know how to fix it or he would have.

1 error in quali with real consequences.  Finished 2nd in the Sprint.  Stayed out avoid trouble in the Chinese GP Midfield Melee and managed to finish in the points after his self-inflicted quasi trouble.  I'm not in HAMs head but I have watched, in amusement, people write him of year after year.  The same people who wrote him off after '22 disappeared after his WDC finishing position in '23 as the non-Red Bull WDC in the objectively, 4th and often 5th, fastest car.  

 

Excellence is a way of life and while HAM may have a drop in form, he is too much of a consistent winner to fail.  Unless a self-destructive behavior such as substance abuse or womanizing takes place, he will continue to deliver.  History has proven this to be the case.

Edited by MKSixer, 23 April 2024 - 06:25.

[baddog]

I consider it likely he will do well in the Ferrari. He is one of the very best ever and this is just a bad patch. But it IS a bad patch.

[FullOppositeLock]

History has also proven that nobody stays at the very top of their game forever…

[jonklug]

Car is a dog, Wolff and the team seem completely clueless, honestly I believe Lewis is the last guy that should be blamed for any of this. Yes maybe he tries too many setup tweaks and maybe he is a bit dejected and unmotivated by this current situation, but it's Mercedes who has been dropping the ball, not their star driver. He just bagged a 2nd place in the sprint out of nowhere, all thanks to a good quali in changeable conditions (his merit).

 

What is concerning for Mercedes imho is that they as a team seem completely lost as to how to fix their car in this regulation. And it doesn't really bode well for 2026 either, even though Toto gives the impression that he is confident 2026 will somehow magically bring them back on top. I heard he told Lewis he would be seeing the back of their cars at Ferrari, to me that seems delusional or let's say wishful thinking to the extreme to be more elegant. At this point I think they need a major engineering overhaul and instead of making ultra optimistic statements about the future maybe Wolff should make sure that every department works at its highest possible capacity. It doesn't feel like they are anywhere near that. Meanwhile, he wants to attract Verstappen to Mercedes, I can only laugh. I think it will take years before they can realistically return to fight for championships, and it's obvious. 

[mclara]

Something from GR about the split setup/experiments the team is running for those who still denies it (taken from AMUS):

 

Russell defended the split of set-ups: "We have to go different ways to learn more about our car." This is also the view of some engineers. They insist that the W15 is a better car than the W14. "We have improved compared to last year. Unfortunately, our opponents have improved even more, so we are now worse in relation."

[mstar]

has anyone noticed James Allison has been very very quiet? not a word, statement etc.  I don't even know he has been at the last 2 races either.  They said the W15 will be the first JA car well lets be honest its still a silver donkey.  I wonder if the penny has dropped to Toto that this team can't work with these regulations.  

[flyboym3]

Something from GR about the split setup/experiments the team is running for those who still denies it (taken from AMUS):

Russell defended the split of set-ups: "We have to go different ways to learn more about our car." This is also the view of some engineers. They insist that the W15 is a better car than the W14. "We have improved compared to last year. Unfortunately, our opponents have improved even more, so we are now worse in relation."

To compliment that from Toto on what George said:

"The car is as difficult as it has been in the past, tricky for the drivers. George [Russell], when we discussed it [on Saturday], said it was the trickiest qualifying car he has had so far. So overall, in a way, the same symptoms."

Edited by flyboym3, 23 April 2024 - 20:11.

[hollowstar]

has anyone noticed James Allison has been very very quiet? not a word, statement etc.  I don't even know he has been at the last 2 races either.  They said the W15 will be the first JA car well lets be honest its still a silver donkey.  I wonder if the penny has dropped to Toto that this team can't work with these regulations.  

Lol. If it took Toto 2.5 years to realize that... he absolutely needs to go. Shareholder or not.

[hollowstar]

Well stated.  

 

Further, he should employ a driver coach like, Nico Rosberg or Karun Chandock.  Rosberg for his keen driving insights and Chandock as a master of the telestrator to point out all of the driving errors.  Step one would probably be a review of his 103 pole positions to deconstruct his many driving errors made over the nearly 2 decades of racing.

Has Lewis tried growing a beard and calling himself Lewis 2.0 yet?

[krea]

Has Lewis tried growing a beard and calling himself Lewis 2.0 yet?

He did that like 10 years ago

[mclara]

To compliment that from Toto on what George said:

"The car is as difficult as it has been in the past, tricky for the drivers. George [Russell], when we discussed it [on Saturday], said it was the trickiest qualifying car he has had so far. So overall, in a way, the same symptoms."

Yea. So they can trundle around fighting for 5-6 or 7 place and learn minimal amount why the car is off or they can experiment and try to learn as much as possible about what works or not and get a 7-8 or 9 place

[Boxerevo]

Has Lewis tried growing a beard and calling himself Lewis 2.0 yet?

I would like Lewis with a mustache/beard in Ferrari. Our 40 years Luigi.

Edited by Boxerevo, 25 April 2024 - 12:48.

[MKSixer]

History has also proven that nobody stays at the very top of their game forever…

17 years IS forever in F1 years.  The average driver stays in F1 just under 7.5 years. He has been at the top of his game 2x that tenure.  

[garoidb]

17 years IS forever in F1 years.  The average driver stays in F1 just under 7.5 years. He has been at the top of his game 2x that tenure.  

 

I think he is heading for the longest continuous F1 career ever, with this being his 18th season and a commitment for two more at Ferrari.