5289 replies to this topic

[MortenF1]

Also every single time in the acceleration zones on to the straights, the car was sideways at least once. Seems to me they made the rear suspension hard as a rock despite it being wet.

Its basic racing engineering that in the wet, you make everything “loose” and I reacted to the same as you, and said it out loud alone in the room, that the damn car is still so incredibly stiff!

[w1Y]

Also every single time in the acceleration zones on to the straights, the car was sideways at least once. Seems to me they made the rear suspension hard as a rock despite it being wet.

I've noticed this a lot with these cars and Lewis. He never seems to.be able to get good traction out of corners. It's why he ends up not moving in traffic for so long until the tyre advantage takes over.

I also wonder whether the heavy sluggish nature of these cars just don't align with his style

Edited by w1Y, 05 November 2024 - 01:00.

[gillesfan76]

It really was a shocking level of performance by Hamilton yesterday, especially relative to George and in contrast to previous wet races this season where he’s seemed to be notably quicker than George when there’s less grip. A performance far, far removed from the genius we saw in 2008 Silverstone where he almost lapped the field as well as many subsequent wet weather performances. Like everyone, I have my theories but not a lot of confidence behind it either way. I think the next 2 seasons at Ferrari will be interesting, and especially 2026 when the regs change a bit. Because if it’s pure age or mental decline, it will be a bloodbath for him but if he can be competitive in 2026 then it shows it’s not so simple.

[gillesfan76]

I've noticed this a lot with these cars and Lewis. He never seems to.be able to get good traction out of corners. It's why he ends up not moving in traffic for so long until the tyre advantage takes over.

I also wonder whether the heavy sluggish nature of these cars just don't align with his style

 

Yeah his style is making up more lap time going into the corner and mid-corner rotation, than the time lost in exit. A fast in/slow out rather than the traditional slow in/fast out. However what has worked for him so far, at least up until 2022 was he gained more time going into and mid-corner than he lost on exit so net overall gain, and also because he straightens up the car very quickly after the apex, he’s not combining cornering and acceleration as much as the slow in/fast out drivers. That is, he tries to get the car rotated and straightened up quickly and then applies traction when the car is straight. That’s what helps his tyre preservation in the race while maintaining quick lap times. It also reduces the risk of error spinning off applying a bit too much throttle on exit compared to drivers who are blending cornering and acceleration after the apex.

 

But equally, the flip side is it increases the risk of locking the brakes going into the corner, going wide, or spinning off in corner entry by locking the rears or losing rear downforce. Up until 2022, he’s had a great feel on the brakes, corner entry and mid-corner rotation phases so he can go to the limit there without mistakes most of the time, and gain a lot of time. But with these ground effect cars, it needs the opposite - slow in/fast out. Taking it easy on corner entry to keep the rear settled and stop it from unpredictably letting go from the sudden fluctuations in floor downforce, then when settled, using the massive downforce produced by the settled venturi floor to sweep through the corner and apply throttle building progressively from apex to exit. Lewis just doesn’t seem to be able to do this very well, and doesn’t seem to be able to feel and be on the edge of combined lateral cornering grip and longitudinal traction grip near as well as the best drivers at the moment. So he leaves some margin there, but he’s not gaining it on the corner entry and mid rotation so he’s just losing out overall.

 

Lewis generally has an incredible feel for the tyres and grip so while I can understand that his unique corner entry style meant that he never had to use slow in/fast out method and develop the blended cornering/traction control needed, I would expect that he should be able to accept this weakness, get on the simulator and practice this over and over again until he adds that to his repertoire. He has the means to even get out onto a private track in between race weekends with an older car and just practice that. Instead he seems resigned to just hoping that they/he will find the unicorn that allows him to exploit his strengths. I can appreciate it’s a difficult change to make because those strengths led to all his many titles, but things always eventually change and he needs to adapt.

 

I remember not long ago Alonso described how he feels everything through the steering wheel and if the suspension, setup and steering arrangement doesn’t give the required feel of what the front wheels are doing, then in his own words “If you take that front end feel away from me, I’m dead”. He struggled at times, I think it was at Alpine and then again in Aston, because the suspension geometry had small changes that wasn’t conducive to that feel, but he improved it and also practiced until he could feel it. It felt different, but with practice he was able to adjust to the new feel and make the reads of it he needed. So let’s say the regs change to electric steering, which is famous for terrible feedback, and Alonso doesn’t get any front end feedback. Of course he’s going to suffer in the short term, but I think his mindset would be that he would need to practice and try and improve, finding a way to get that feel. I guess it wouldn’t be easy for him that front end feel is what gives him his special strengths.

[lewislorenzo]

True, but I do, i take the races into account to judge how someone performs in my eyes to the expectations. Otherwise we could just look at the driver standings at the end of each season to judge the drivers. In my perspective I feel Lewis hasn't been on it since the summer break. Like to me he wasn't at the start of the 22 season. And in both cases it's totally explainable and I don't blame him for it. Since the summer break he is outscored 73-40 in points by Russell.

George has been more consistent for sure however the he started from the pitlane in baku with the wrong strategy and then he was screwed over in Singapore. Almost like they want George to finish ahead with choices like these😂

It really was a shocking level of performance by Hamilton yesterday, especially relative to George and in contrast to previous wet races this season where he’s seemed to be notably quicker than George when there’s less grip.

When you look at back at Silverstone and Spa Q compared to today it is night and day. Obviously it is the car that hampered him

Edited by lewislorenzo, 05 November 2024 - 06:31.

[JimmyClark]

George has been more consistent for sure however the he started from the pitlane in baku with the wrong strategy and then he was screwed over in Singapore. Almost like they want George to finish ahead with choices like these
 

 

George has had strategic missteps from the team this year too, so that doesn't hold too much weight. 

 

In general, Merc are operationally behind and still seem to rely on 'the data' too much. At least they seem to have sorted the pit stops this year. 

[monolulu]

George has been more consistent for sure however the he started from the pitlane in baku with the wrong strategy and then he was screwed over in Singapore. Almost like they want George to finish ahead with choices like these

When you look at back at Silverstone and Spa Q compared to today it is night and day. Obviously it is the car that hampered him

What is so difficult to understand is why the 2 cars “appear” to be so different at certain tracks. It can’t just be driving style. Are Lewis & his engineers just getting it so wrong on setup? Has Lewis just checked out? Didn’t look like it in Mexico where the 2 cars seemed similar. Just hope the next 3 races aren’t a complete disaster as it would be a sad way of finishing his time with Merc.!

Edited by monolulu, 05 November 2024 - 09:29.

[lewislorenzo]

George has had strategic missteps from the team this year too, so that doesn't hold too much weight.

I don’t think that is true

What is so difficult to understand is why the 2 cars “appear” to be so different at certain tracks. It can’t just be driving style. Are Lewis & his engineers just getting it so wrong on setup? Has Lewis just checked out? Didn’t look like it in Mexico where the 2 cars seemed similar.

It just doesn’t add up at all. The gap this weekend was not normal especially in the wet.

Edited by lewislorenzo, 05 November 2024 - 09:47.

[JBJ]

I don’t think that is true


It just doesn’t add up at all. The gap this weekend was not normal especially in the wet.

Last weekend he wanted to stay out. team said no

[mclara]

I don’t think that is true


It just doesn’t add up at all. The gap this weekend was not normal especially in the wet.

mercedes is the team most likely to experiment given their terrible performance this year. All other top teams have improved but Mercedes 

[lewislorenzo]

Last weekend he wanted to stay out. team said no

In Spa he wanted to stay out…George overrules when he wants maybe he should have done so again

Edited by lewislorenzo, 05 November 2024 - 11:10.

[JBJ]

In Spa he wanted to stay out…George overrules when he wants maybe he should have done so again

He should have... but you claimed he didn't have strategic missteps, and there was one just last weekend

[Dalton007]

Some mental gymnastics going on here. 

 

George wanted to stay out, the team overruled him. In wet conditions, better to trust the driver's judgment.

[MasterOfCoin]

Are you guys replying to different posts I'm lost...

[JBJ]

Are you guys replying to different posts I'm lost...

?
The last 6 post before yours

[lewislorenzo]

He should have... but you claimed he didn't have strategic missteps, and there was one just last weekend

He should have been assertive like in Zaandvort 2022 then😂

[monolulu]

Lewis’s take on the weekend:-

"It is devastating to have these bad races in the second half of the season," Hamilton told media including RacingNews365.

"But all I can say is that we're trying coming into the weekends, but it is definitely not acceptable, it is definitely not good enough. 

"We have to take accountability, I have to take accountability, but I am driving and doing the best with what I have got.

"The car has been the worst [in Brazil], and I don't know what it is, we're going to have to find out what it is. 

"But the mechanics did a great job in getting here and doing practice stops at 4am, and with all the work they've done on the car throughout the weekend, one of the cars was working a lot better, so there is obviously potential."

[JBJ]

He should have been assertive like in Zaandvort 2022 then

Bit weird; George should be more assertive, yet Lewis is the victim of team decisions

[gillesfan76]

It’s unfortunate that there is a bit of radio silence from him on the detailed characteristics that he’s struggling with. I suspect it’s because that detail would give too much away of the Mercedes design, although God knows why anyone would want to copy it   Anyway, hope we hear more about that in years to come. Personally for me, the driver/car interface with driving style, setups and the like are some of the most interesting aspects of F1.

[mclara]

It’s unfortunate that there is a bit of radio silence from him on the detailed characteristics that he’s struggling with. I suspect it’s because that detail would give too much away of the Mercedes design, although God knows why anyone would want to copy it Anyway, hope we hear more about that in years to come. Personally for me, the driver/car interface with driving style, setups and the like are some of the most interesting aspects of F1.

That will tell the backmarker teams how not to do it. Which could send Mercedes further down the grid 😋

[Autodromo]

It’s unfortunate that there is a bit of radio silence from him on the detailed characteristics that he’s struggling with. I suspect it’s because that detail would give too much away of the Mercedes design, although God knows why anyone would want to copy it   Anyway, hope we hear more about that in years to come. Personally for me, the driver/car interface with driving style, setups and the like are some of the most interesting aspects of F1.

Well, In Brazil he mentioned that the car was bouncing all over and he couldn't brake properly.  And that the car lacked grip.  That seemed pretty specific and obvious.  

[MikeTekRacing]

Well, In Brazil he mentioned that the car was bouncing all over and he couldn't brake properly. And that the car lacked grip. That seemed pretty specific and obvious.

I have never seen a slower driver in the team not complain about lack of grip or any issues.
What do you want them to say? i am slow?

[garoidb]

I have never seen a slower driver in the team not complain about lack of grip or any issues.
What do you want them to say? i am slow?

 

He alludes to one of the cars being faster, but he doesn't say which one 

[P123]

I have never seen a slower driver in the team not complain about lack of grip or any issues.
What do you want them to say? i am slow?

 

After going perfectly well in the wet in China, and in the GP in Silverstone, it could be that Lewis has fallen off a cliff.  But among the swings of performance this season, even Brazil was a bit of an oddity.  Sprint weekend, so perhaps something fundamental that was dialled in, but even if Lewis is a geriatric who is slow and a bit off-form, I still wouldn't expect him to be that slow, based on recent events.  Anyway, having paid attention to his race and various mishaps, the   moment that was properly    worthy was when he had a great run on Lawson coming through T3 and the bloody car skipped- like it had hit some lag in an online game.  George's car was bouncing too.  Not quite back to 2022 levels, but it could be that once again the car is on a knife edge as to whether it behaves or not.  But granted, Lewis may just be slow. 

[MasterOfCoin]

It isn't a coincidence that the top 3 cars were the best at riding the bumps...

Edited by MasterOfCoin, 05 November 2024 - 18:29.

[MKSixer]

George has had strategic missteps from the team this year too, so that doesn't hold too much weight. 

 

In general, Merc are operationally behind and still seem to rely on 'the data' too much. At least they seem to have sorted the pit stops this year. 

This, 100%.

 

Merc has, for years, demonstrated an over reliance on data to the point of absolute absurdity.  There have been, over the years, situations which have been painfully obvious for all with eyes and even a modicum of knowledge that they completely fumble.  I don't see this changing.  

[RoryFormula1]

This, 100%.

Merc has, for years, demonstrated an over reliance on data to the point of absolute absurdity. There have been, over the years, situations which have been painfully obvious for all with eyes and even a modicum of knowledge that they completely fumble. I don't see this changing.

Agreed - I liken Mercedes to a career student collecting degrees and knowledge but never applying it. I have no idea why Mercedes seems unable to apply the library of data that they’ve collected over the years for sustained improvement and they don’t either. I don’t see anyone in leadership making changes or hiring someone that would say ‘enough is enough’; they’re lost.

Edited by RoryFormula1, 05 November 2024 - 20:12.

[Autodromo]

Agreed - I liken Mercedes to a career student collecting degrees and knowledge but never applying it. I have no idea why Mercedes seems unable to apply the library of data that they’ve collected over the years for sustained improvement and they don’t either. I don’t see anyone in leadership making changes or hiring someone that would say ‘enough is enough’; they’re lost.

Yes, they are so bad that they managed to win, what, six WCC on the trot?  And second last year.  Horrible.  Clueless.  Lost.  

 

EDIT:  Sorry, I just get triggered by hyperbole.  Same as when drivers complain "no grip" or "no brakes" while pulling multiple g's in the corner or under brakes.  "It's undriveable" as they set a fastest lap.  Mercedes is pretty darn capable, eh?

Edited by Autodromo, 05 November 2024 - 21:50.

[RoryFormula1]

Yes, they are so bad that they managed to win, what, six WCC on the trot? And second last year. Horrible. Clueless. Lost.

EDIT: Sorry, I just get triggered by hyperbole. Same as when drivers complain "no grip" or "no brakes" while pulling multiple g's in the corner or under brakes. "It's undriveable" as they set a fastest lap. Mercedes is pretty darn capable, eh?

That’s wonderful but the year is 2024, we’re almost three full seasons into the new rules, and Mercedes is not and has not been in contention to win the WDC or WCC since 2021. I mean wow, second last year because the second Red Bull driver was busy underperforming and now a distant 4th in the WCC. Why you believe past success matters at all when current performance indicates bewilderment is as confusing to me as ground effects appear to be for Mercedes.

Edited by RoryFormula1, 05 November 2024 - 23:28.

[mclara]

https://www.planetf1...answer-question
 

   

 

well the team seems incapable of making a properly working floor so this might help 

[krea]

That’s wonderful but the year is 2024, we’re almost three full seasons into the new rules, and Mercedes is not and has not been in contention to win the WDC or WCC since 2021. I mean wow, second last year because the second Red Bull driver was busy underperforming and now a distant 4th in the WCC. Why you believe past success matters at all when current performance indicates bewilderment is as confusing to me as ground effects appear to be for Mercedes.

Russell had a race winning car in Brazil I would say

[hamalo]

Russell had a race winning car in Brazil I would say

 

Russell's pace was worse than it looked. It was obviously very difficult to overtake at the start of the race while it was super wet, even Verstappen couldn't overtake Leclerc, and he was a lot quicker than anyone else later on.

Norris was also way quicker at the start, but simply couldn't overtake. If the Mercedes Engineers feel the same as you, it's not wonder that they don't move forward with their car 

Edited by hamalo, 06 November 2024 - 06:36.

[krea]

Russell's pace was worse than it looked. It was obviously very difficult to overtake at the start of the race while it was super wet, even Verstappen couldn't overtake Leclerc, and he was a lot quicker than anyone else later on.
Norris was also way quicker at the start, but simply couldn't overtake. If the Mercedes Engineers feel the same as you, it's not wonder that they don't move forward with their car

What a strange take and attempt to downplay the car and Russell performance over the weekend

[gillesfan76]

What a strange take and attempt to downplay the car and Russell performance over the weekend

 

Both can be true, yes? Russell’s performance was excellent all weekend. I think all hamalo is saying is that Russell’s pace wasn’t great but he got a good start. Norris didn’t have good top speed, a bit too much wing on so was good in the corners but couldn’t out drag down the straight. Maybe even you are correct that Russell had a race winning car, if he could stay out in front and get a lucky SC and red flag. But on pure pace, looked like it was a matter of time before Russell was overtaken, either on track or through the pit stops/undercut/overcut etc.

[monolulu]

The Merc debrief. Shov saying the focus is now on next year. So I guess it’s understandable that there’s a disconnect between each side of the garage on setup & data sharing.

 

https://youtu.be/7Ny...1hGvcEwTAYrauqd
 

Edited by monolulu, 06 November 2024 - 19:58.

[gillesfan76]

https://www.autospor...ggles/10671503/

 

Look at the data, on most corners in Brazil, Lewis was braking notably later than George. Now a definite factor in that is because he’s carrying less speed into the corner due to his inability to get as good an exit out of the preceding corner, but I don’t think that’s the only reason he’s braking later. I think that’s just his style, he tries to brake later and make up more time on entry than on exit, but as per my previous posts, I think it’s unsettling the car and compounding his problem of not getting a good minimum speed through the corner and importantly a poor exit.

 

Surely he’s not so inexperienced, especially as he’s working with his engineers, to not realise this. Of course he realises it. So why is he continuing to do this, unsettling the car instead of just being smoother and keeping that floor settled without too sudden a weight transfer in the braking? In my opinion, I think it’s because he is still trying to work out a way to feel and control the car while it’s unsettled instead of accepting that sudden weight transfers are a limitation of these cars. Or at least the Mercedes. I think he’s thinking that if he can unlock a key where he can notice what signal the car gives before it unsettles and how he can manipulate that rear end when it’s loose, then he can continue driving the way in which he’s got his specific talents in. But I think 3 years of hoping he can feel and figure something out is just too long. I genuinely think that even Button would be wiping the floor with Hamilton in these cars because these cars rewards a smooth style.

[Dalton007]

Russell's pace was worse than it looked. It was obviously very difficult to overtake at the start of the race while it was super wet, even Verstappen couldn't overtake Leclerc, and he was a lot quicker than anyone else later on.

Norris was also way quicker at the start, but simply couldn't overtake. If the Mercedes Engineers feel the same as you, it's not wonder that they don't move forward with their car 

 

If George stayed out, a good chance for victory, since he called the red flag. That being said, Max was unstoppable in the second half of the race.

[mstar]

https://www.autospor...ggles/10671503/

 

Look at the data, on most corners in Brazil, Lewis was braking notably later than George. Now a definite factor in that is because he’s carrying less speed into the corner due to his inability to get as good an exit out of the preceding corner, but I don’t think that’s the only reason he’s braking later. I think that’s just his style, he tries to brake later and make up more time on entry than on exit, but as per my previous posts, I think it’s unsettling the car and compounding his problem of not getting a good minimum speed through the corner and importantly a poor exit.

 

Surely he’s not so inexperienced, especially as he’s working with his engineers, to not realise this. Of course he realises it. So why is he continuing to do this, unsettling the car instead of just being smoother and keeping that floor settled without too sudden a weight transfer in the braking? In my opinion, I think it’s because he is still trying to work out a way to feel and control the car while it’s unsettled instead of accepting that sudden weight transfers are a limitation of these cars. Or at least the Mercedes. I think he’s thinking that if he can unlock a key where he can notice what signal the car gives before it unsettles and how he can manipulate that rear end when it’s loose, then he can continue driving the way in which he’s got his specific talents in. But I think 3 years of hoping he can feel and figure something out is just too long. I genuinely think that even Button would be wiping the floor with Hamilton in these cars because these cars rewards a smooth style.

 

I agree that lewis had to change his driving style he has been used to all his F1 career.  Lewis attacking style is based on having the courage to push to the limit and having the tenacity to control the car on the limit.

Problem is these cars you can't drive on the limit pushing the entrys like lewis likes doing.  I don;t know how he get on with Ferrari as Charles likes to attack corners too.  But the ferrari is better at braking as sainz said last season they have a good braking platform compared to others.  So maybe he have less problem but still these Ground Effect cars don't play to his strengths 

Edited by mstar, 12 November 2024 - 10:52.

[lewislorenzo]

Max is pretty attacking too so I think it just depends on the car characteristics.

The rear of the Ferrari is much better and consistent too. He should be able to trust his machine again

[flyboym3]

Fascinating read of a toto wolf interview: https://www.theguard...ilton-interview

The most peculiar thing I find is Horner is worried about redbull being portrayed as the dickdasterdly team in the f1 movie yet he behaves like this with that susie wolff shenanigans.