1908 replies to this topic

[MKSixer]

Mercedes has struggled with the new rules as Adrain Newey has run the tables since the rule-set changed.  From porpoising to top-speed challenges, Mercedes has been on the back foot.  While they have moved up the grid and scored points, there has only been one win.

 

Will this year be better?  Will they close in and defeat the 2024 Newey Starship or stay in the pack?

 

Welcome to the 2024 AMG Mercedes-Petronas F1 W15 Engineering Thread!!

Edited by MKSixer, 02 January 2024 - 13:11.

[JimmyClark]

I don't think they will win any titles this year, but they will be closer and thus their "peak" races should propel them to a couple of wins. It's just finding the consistency which will still be difficult I think.

[lewislorenzo]

Please don’t be draggy and have more rear grip. My expectations are so low though

[Hyatt]

... will be similar to '23, unfortunately

[mclara]

https://twitter.com/...on^s1_&ref_url=

[mclara]

When can we start the W15 thread?

[Ivanhoe]

That's this one.

[MKSixer]

That's this one.

Happy New Year!

 

Can you amend the title to add W15?

 

Thank-you!!

[MasterOfCoin]

Please don’t be draggy and have more rear grip. My expectations are so low though

I need to see a pull rod front suspension, the cockpit moved a bit further back, removal of the SIS wing, and some kind of anti dive and anti squat system...

[Counterbalance]

I read in one report that the zeropod concept necessitated the design of the gearbox which was one of the primary factors causing the drag.

So now that the concept has been ditched, hopefully the W15 won’t look like an asthmatic octogenarian on the straights.

[mstar]

Its clear the suspension and rear downforce (safely without bouncing), needs to be corrected along with a car which is sooo inconsistent 1 driver gets in sweet spot and in the same car the other driver is miless away and the balance of the car makes it seems a completely different car to the other driver.  

 

A stable platform for the car is a good start THEN add performance.  I am not kidding myself Merc will NOT beat Redbull (or ferrari) from race 1.  

Edited by mstar, 04 January 2024 - 09:49.

[Risil]

Jonathan Noble has got some good info out of James Allison about where Mercedes went wrong with ride heights and porpoising in 2022 and 2023 and what they're trying to achieve with this year's car.

 

There's also some insight about Lewis's seating position problems, and the general difficulty in distinguishing between what drivers mean vs what they say when they complain about your car.

 

https://www.autospor...anges/10562695/

[ToniF1]

^^^ It is just a shorter version of this article we already had in W14 thread on 22. december https://www.the-race...es-made-on-w14/

[IceSpeed]

Jonathan Noble has got some good info out of James Allison about where Mercedes went wrong with ride heights and porpoising in 2022 and 2023 and what they're trying to achieve with this year's car.

There's also some insight about Lewis's seating position problems, and the general difficulty in distinguishing between what drivers mean vs what they say when they complain about your car.

https://www.autospor...anges/10562695/

Thx for posting this. The entire article has some good insight. What I found particularly interesting is the last bit about the seating position where Allison says that seating position doesn’t matter while in the same breath goes to say that if the seating position was where Lewis wanted it then Lewis would be able to handle a poor handling car better. (I get that Mercedes need to get rid of this poor handling but if you have a driver that can drive through it fast by countering what it does wouldn’t you want that?). Goes back to some articles during Lewis’ initial McLarens test (I believe) where some engineers spoke about how Lewis would drive through certain characteristics of the car vs other drivers that might have complained about it.

[MKSixer]

A Quote from Mercedes F1 "X" feed:

 

W15 Updates

 

-The W15 will have NO aerodynamic design with the W14.

 

-The cockpit position will be further back, as Lewis Hamilton requested.

 

-The W15's gearbox will be smaller and lighter than the W14's.

 

-The bodywork will be more compact.

 

-Mercedes will continue using pull-rod suspension.

Edited by MKSixer, 05 January 2024 - 22:08.

[Hyatt]

any launchdate yet?

[monolulu]

any launchdate yet?

14th February I think. Although not sure where I saw that as can’t find it now 

Edited by monolulu, 06 January 2024 - 12:59.

[MasterOfCoin]

A Quote from Mercedes F1 "X" feed:

 

W15 Updates

 

-The W15 will have NO aerodynamic design with the W14.

 

-The cockpit position will be further back, as Lewis Hamilton requested.

 

-The W15's gearbox will be smaller and lighter than the W14's.

 

-The bodywork will be more compact.

 

-Mercedes will continue using pull-rod suspension.

This sounds odd because the W14 was running push rod suspension....

[mclara]

https://www.motorspo...1-sim/10565905/

 

At least they are making some progress with the new car.

Easier to drive and more predictable should bring some lap time in itself 

[lewislorenzo]

https://www.motorspo...1-sim/10565905/

At least they are making some progress with the new car.
Easier to drive and more predictable should bring some lap time in itself

Lets see it on track first😅

[Boxerevo]

https://www.motorspo...1-sim/10565905/

 

[mclara]

2024 will be a year to establish a proof of concept. Maybe they can get a win in or two when RB switches focus onto the 25 car. But then there is Ferrari as well.

 

To think that the W15 will be competing for wins anytime soon is foolish. They are way behind RB on development on this concept.

[flyboym3]

Merc look to be 3 years behind rbr.
2 years on the clock with this philosophy reset. Additional 1 years worth of dev effort they lost prior to the budget cap going live where 6 months dev was probably equivalent to what takes 12 months now because of budget cap.

I still think nobody is closing the gap to rbr with this formula. Will have to wait until 2026 rule reset. I hope I'm proven wrong though.

[Brian60]

This story just popped up on my Facebook newfeed, Is it too early to hope?......

 

https://www.facebook...560149305907331

[gillesfan76]

This story just popped up on my Facebook newfeed, Is it too early to hope?......

 

https://www.facebook...560149305907331

 

Yeah it’s on PF1 news too with some direct quotes by Wolff. He goes on to say that the reason for the slow stops, in comparison with their rivals, is due to Mercedes being conservative in interpreting the regulations around pitstops compared to their rivals. I remember a while back Mercedes complained about Red Bull’s interpretation of some equipment related to pitstops but surprised that Mercedes didn’t invest in that area after the FIA ruled that Red Bull’s interpretation was legal. Shocking actually.

[baddog]

Yeah it’s on PF1 news too with some direct quotes by Wolff. He goes on to say that the reason for the slow stops, in comparison with their rivals, is due to Mercedes being conservative in interpreting the regulations around pitstops compared to their rivals. I remember a while back Mercedes complained about Red Bull’s interpretation of some equipment related to pitstops but surprised that Mercedes didn’t invest in that area after the FIA ruled that Red Bull’s interpretation was legal. Shocking actually.

 

That's classic Toto passive aggressive bullshit though.

[Reinmuster]

Merc look to be 3 years behind rbr.
2 years on the clock with this philosophy reset. Additional 1 years worth of dev effort they lost prior to the budget cap going live where 6 months dev was probably equivalent to what takes 12 months now because of budget cap.

I still think nobody is closing the gap to rbr with this formula. Will have to wait until 2026 rule reset. I hope I'm proven wrong though.

 

Agree. It took 8 years for Red Bull to catch and beat Merc and it happens at the very last of the previous technical regulation. Be as it's may, it will take until at least 2025 before Merc or Ferrari or even McLaren to match Red Bull.

But I'm happy if proven wrong. 

Edited by Reinmuster, 17 January 2024 - 08:28.

[gillesfan76]

That's classic Toto passive aggressive bullshit though.

 

Toto’s actual quote:

“I think the regulations, how they were laid out a few years ago, we interpreted them in a very conservative way,” Wolff detailed.

“And we’ve seen other teams doing it differently. So watch this space. I think it’s going to be very different.”

So he says that Mercedes interpreted the regulations in a very conservative way. I don’t see anything there that implies his team did something right and other teams did something wrong. I’m almost certain that if you go through the quote history of pretty much every team principal over the last 20 years, you will find every TP and/or TD state that they’ve interpreted the regulations conservatively as the reason why they’ve missed exploiting a regulation loophole.

Here’s Tombazis being passive aggressive    https://www.foxsport...abde52359bb08be

Not to mention’s Vasseur’s passive aggressive bullshit https://www.pitdebri...-the-british-gp

Then there’s Seidl of McLaren, more passive aggressive bullshit. Incredible stuff https://www.grandpri...-wouldve-liked/

 

Perhaps with the exception of Christian Horner, who can’t bring himself to blame Red Bull as being too conservative and saves it to level that at others    https://motorsport.n...ner,120157.html

 

Not to mention Horner blaming Mercedes as being “too conservative” for losing AD21, instead of a rogue RD making it up as he went along.

Edited by gillesfan76, 17 January 2024 - 12:57.

[lewislorenzo]

That's classic Toto passive aggressive bullshit though.

Sure…

Edited by lewislorenzo, 17 January 2024 - 13:20.

[DW46]

Toto’s actual quote:
“I think the regulations, how they were laid out a few years ago, we interpreted them in a very conservative way,” Wolff detailed.
“And we’ve seen other teams doing it differently. So watch this space. I think it’s going to be very different.”
So he says that Mercedes interpreted the regulations in a very conservative way. I don’t see anything there that implies his team did something right and other teams did something wrong. I’m almost certain that if you go through the quote history of pretty much every team principal over the last 20 years, you will find every TP and/or TD state that they’ve interpreted the regulations conservatively as the reason why they’ve missed exploiting a regulation loophole.
Here’s Tombazis being passive aggressive https://www.foxsport...abde52359bb08be
Not to mention’s Vasseur’s passive aggressive bullshit https://www.pitdebri...-the-british-gp
Then there’s Seidl of McLaren, more passive aggressive bullshit. Incredible stuff https://www.grandpri...-wouldve-liked/

Perhaps with the exception of Christian Horner, who can’t bring himself to blame Red Bull as being too conservative and saves it to level that at others https://motorsport.n...ner,120157.html

Not to mention Horner blaming Mercedes as being “too conservative” for losing AD21, instead of a rogue RD making it up as he went along.

Team Principles downplay areas of underperformance in shock revelation.

Horner gets his jollies out of winding up Toto and dog whistling the Merc fan base (likely cause no one’s giving him the credit he probably deserves - that’s reserved for Adrian and Max). Bro doesn’t understand sportsmanship.

Best piece of news in ages, you can’t be losing extra places every tyre change out of stubbornness.

[pdac]

Since when has any F1 team took a conservative approach to the rules?

[Carsey]

Since when has any F1 team took a conservative approach to the rules?

They dont.  Certainly not on average a second or 2 slower than anyone else on the pitlane.   (it would be interesting to have a total average pitstop time for each team over a race and season)

 

Did the pitstop rules even change for this era of regs?   I mean I cant remember a swift Merc pitstop with 18" wheels since they were introduced!

[Grippy]

They dont.  Certainly not on average a second or 2 slower than anyone else on the pitlane.   (it would be interesting to have a total average pitstop time for each team over a race and season)

 

Did the pitstop rules even change for this era of regs?   I mean I cant remember a swift Merc pitstop with 18" wheels since they were introduced!

This answers the season averages - table at bottom of page.

https://www.total-mo...p-2023-who-top/

[gillesfan76]

Since when has any F1 team took a conservative approach to the rules?

 

I suspect that “conservative” in F1 language either means:

1. We didn’t notice the loophole, or;

2. We considered this but thought it was very likely not going to be allowed so didn’t think it worth the investment.

There is no value in speculating if it’s 1. or 2. without any information one way or another.

 

The part that I’m critical of Mercedes and Toto is they actually knew about this long ago because there are articles way where Mercedes actually asks the FIA if a proposal is acceptable (a proposal that Red Bull were using already) framing it as a question towards Mercedes potentially using it. The FIA confirmed to them that it was acceptable. So the natural course of action should have been for Mercedes to adopt it. But they reasoned, incorrectly of course, that the difference in pit stop times was negligible and not one that is likely to affect race outcomes and points. How wrong they were, because even a tenth can sometimes be the difference between coming out ahead or behind on a pitstop and 1 second is orders of magnitude too much and will often result in lost positions during pit stops.

[baddog]

Sure…

 

Hinting without saying it that his rivals are not as clean as he is? Page one of his form-book.

[gillesfan76]

LOL first with the “…a lot of Lewis fans” post and now with reading too much into Toto’s words. Honestly, the soap opera part seems to interest some people more than the actual driving skill and technology.

[Hyatt]

"Mercedes: New W15 F1 car has ironed out 'spiteful' rear end"

 

https://www.motorspo...teful-rear-end/

Edited by Hyatt, 18 January 2024 - 10:19.

[FirstnameLastname]

I just read that too - amazing that they can say things like this based on an (admittedly high end) computer game

[Laptom]

I trully believe the Merc can catch up to 95% of the aero compared to RB.

They were really making major steps in 2023 and their gain was massive. I think they have a better understanding of current concept in comparison of the Zero-pod design and I think they will improve on the right parts in the 2024 concept. The 2023 design in the end was really not that draggy anymore and with the new rear-end and the best engine in class, they can come out in top on the straights again.

Still I don't think it will be sufficient to beat RB (or at least RB with Max in it) on the whole season though. I hope for Merc to have a couple of victories in the end and a good base for 2025.

[gillesfan76]

"Mercedes: New W15 F1 car has ironed out 'spiteful' rear end"

 

https://www.motorspo...teful-rear-end/

 

I find the following part from Allison particularly interesting:

 

“There is also just a little bit that nestles in the back of our heads, which is that the rules themselves have a much more sort of clear upper bound to them in the amount of lap time these cars are capable of producing. 

 

“It’s a much more clear upper bound to them than the older generation of cars, which the more love you gave them and the more labour you put into them, the faster they got, seemingly without end.  

 

“I think if you look at last year you see from the start of the season to the end of the season, although Red Bull's dominance was near complete and they didn't look vulnerable even to the last race of the year, if you look at the bigger picture, this is a grid that is gradually compressing.”

 

 

If I’m reading it right, he’s saying that they can see a limit to the performance of these ground effect cars under the current regulations. The parts I find fascinating about this, and particularly surprising, are:

- How could he know what the limits of the regulations are if his car isn’t getting close to them? Or phrased another way, is he implying that they’ve found a huge performance jump with the W15 over the W14, and they’ve nailed the W15 already in such a way that further development work they’ve done so far on it isn’t yielding jumps in performance? All of it sounds very strange to say before the car has even hit the tarmac.

 

- What he’s saying seems to contradict with the noises coming out of the Red Bull camp where they’re indicating they’ve found a whole second over the RB19.

 

Perhaps I’ve largely misunderstood or ignorant of the reasoning and detailed meaning of what Allison is saying, however I think the face value of what he’s saying is rather clear. Which is that they believe that Red Bull can’t get that much faster and that they can catch up sooner or later. Time will tell.

 

edit: Meanwhile, here’s a recent article where Stella of McLaren seems to be saying almost the exact opposite thing to Allison! https://www.autospor...gains/10566298/

Edited by gillesfan76, 18 January 2024 - 16:07.

[Planetdune]

I trully believe the Merc can catch up to 95% of the aero compared to RB.

They were really making major steps in 2023 and their gain was massive. I think they have a better understanding of current concept in comparison of the Zero-pod design and I think they will improve on the right parts in the 2024 concept. The 2023 design in the end was really not that draggy anymore and with the new rear-end and the best engine in class, they can come out in top on the straights again.

Still I don't think it will be sufficient to beat RB (or at least RB with Max in it) on the whole season though. I hope for Merc to have a couple of victories in the end and a good base for 2025.

 

Catch up is not enough. Even if they manage to catch up, by the time they do, RB is half a straight further ahead again.

[Clatter]

I find the following part from Allison particularly interesting:

“There is also just a little bit that nestles in the back of our heads, which is that the rules themselves have a much more sort of clear upper bound to them in the amount of lap time these cars are capable of producing.

“It’s a much more clear upper bound to them than the older generation of cars, which the more love you gave them and the more labour you put into them, the faster they got, seemingly without end.

“I think if you look at last year you see from the start of the season to the end of the season, although Red Bull's dominance was near complete and they didn't look vulnerable even to the last race of the year, if you look at the bigger picture, this is a grid that is gradually compressing.”


If I’m reading it right, he’s saying that they can see a limit to the performance of these ground effect cars under the current regulations. The parts I find fascinating about this, and particularly surprising, are:
- How could he know what the limits of the regulations are if his car isn’t getting close to them? Or phrased another way, is he implying that they’ve found a huge performance jump with the W15 over the W14, and they’ve nailed the W15 already in such a way that further development work they’ve done so far on it isn’t yielding jumps in performance? All of it sounds very strange to say before the car has even hit the tarmac.

- What he’s saying seems to contradict with the noises coming out of the Red Bull camp where they’re indicating they’ve found a whole second over the RB19.

Perhaps I’ve largely misunderstood or ignorant of the reasoning and detailed meaning of what Allison is saying, however I think the face value of what he’s saying is rather clear. Which is that they believe that Red Bull can’t get that much faster and that they can catch up sooner or later. Time will tell.

edit: Meanwhile, here’s a recent article where Stella of McLaren seems to be saying almost the exact opposite thing to Allison! https://www.autospor...gains/10566298/

He seems to be forgetting that RB were able to switch early to this year's car. I doubt the RB19 was developed to anywhere the amount the chasing group cars were.

[Bliman]

He seems to be forgetting that RB were able to switch early to this year's car. I doubt the RB19 was developed to anywhere the amount the chasing group cars were.

I don't think so. He is talking about the whole grid "if you look at the bigger picture, this is a grid that is gradually compressing". How much the bar can be raised remains to be seen. And Red Bull will likely give that answer. If it is raised significantly above the others then it is game over. So I think he is talking about a whole grid that is compressing sans Red Bull.

[mclara]

I just read that too - amazing that they can say things like this based on an (admittedly high end) computer game

Mercedes have enough data on rear end with too little downforce/unstable. So it shouldnt be too hard for them to spot an improvement I guess.

[baddog]

LOL first with the “…a lot of Lewis fans” post and now with reading too much into Toto’s words. Honestly, the soap opera part seems to interest some people more than the actual driving skill and technology.

 

If you like.

[P123]

I just read that too - amazing that they can say things like this based on an (admittedly high end) computer game

 

It is a slightly misleading headline. What Allison said doesn't equate to the certainty of the headline. 

 

 

“However, what we do have some hope for is that some of the more spiteful characteristics of the rear end of our car will be a bit more friendly to us, and the handling of the car a happier thing.  

That's all in simulation, but nevertheless we’ve got reasonable grounds to believe that we've made some gain there.” 

[eab]

Catch up is not enough. Even if they manage to catch up, by the time they do, RB is half a straight further ahead again.

Luckily there is that concept of 'zero'.

[gillesfan76]

He seems to be forgetting that RB were able to switch early to this year's car. I doubt the RB19 was developed to anywhere the amount the chasing group cars were.

 

I agree that it seems that way, but we have to be mindful that it also seems unlikely that someone in his position is going to forget something as basic as that while mere us are aware of it. While he mentions the grid compressing, it seems to me that he may also be referring to information he may have seen within Mercedes’ own development of this season’s car.

 

I don't think so. He is talking about the whole grid "if you look at the bigger picture, this is a grid that is gradually compressing". How much the bar can be raised remains to be seen. And Red Bull will likely give that answer. If it is raised significantly above the others then it is game over. So I think he is talking about a whole grid that is compressing sans Red Bull.

 

See my above reply to Clatter, I don’t think he is just limiting to the rest of the grid. He specifically implies there is a performance ceiling to the current regulations and that he feels that everyone is getting close to it.

 

It could well be that the problem in our interpretation of his comments is a mistaken assumption that performance ceiling of say, car concept and aero details means that lap times will be similar. That may be a completely incorrect assumption because something like car setup with the ground effect cars translates to a significant difference in lap time. You can literally see this across the grid with most team mates in each team, one weekend one driver is more than just a couple of tenths ahead and next weekend it swaps around. The teams and drivers have also confirmed the difficulty to set these cars up.

 

So what I’m getting at, is that Allison is talking about outright performance ceiling but that doesn’t necessarily mean that two cars who have hit that performance ceiling are going to have similar lap times. That could depend on also nailing the setup as it seems that even slightly away from the perfect setup, results in significant lap time loss.

[eab]

What does this Mercedes Thread think of a change in the way the World Championships are run? As soon as both titles are clinched, end the championships. No more (seemingly endless) dead rubbers,

and the teams can start much more evenly with the next title bids in terms of time, which on top of that would also reduce the knock-on effects that come with getting a headstart and advantage already, eg

having an even harder to assail lead in years to come. More competition, more variety, less predictability, less borefests.

 

Also, the dead rubber races could still take place, but as non-championship ones.

[Laptom]

 

What does this Mercedes Thread think of a change in the way the World Championships are run? As soon as both titles are clinched, end the championships. No more (seemingly endless) dead rubbers,

and the teams can start much more evenly with the next title bids in terms of time, which on top of that would also reduce the knock-on effects that come with getting a headstart and advantage already, eg

having an even harder to assail lead in years to come. More competition, more variety, less predictability, less borefests.

 

Also, the dead rubber races could still take place, but as non-championship ones.

 

 

 

That seems not fair for teams with an end-season high. There is more than only the the WDC and WDD and if you downgrade it to dead rubber races, you will eventually kill the whole Formula.