1584 replies to this topic

[Garagista]

I am going through the 00s seasons and Mercedes is starting to sound like Toyota and BAR in those years. They were always close to getting all right and smash it, every weekend they were closer to finally understanding and solving the problems.

Hopefully this doesnt end up with Mercedes leaving the business. The F1 team is there to exist for long time but the Mercedes Brand...

[rog]

From the last 3 years this is the worst car competitive wise, they are declining more and more. Race pace/degradation was one of their last strong things which they completely lost. Ferrari now has a low degradation whereas Mercedes a big degradation. With this degradation the long first stint couldn't work, it was a failure. Or why not try out two strategies for once? Bring in Hamilton earlier because he struggled more in the first stint and let Russell go longer.

Edited by rog, 07 April 2024 - 14:46.

[hollowstar]

Bring in Hamilton earlier because he struggled more in the first stint and let Russell go longer.

Yep, since Lewis was struggling it would have been the thing to do. Mercedes never seems to get things right from a strategic point of view. It's been an issue for years, even when they were dominating. But obviously it didn't look as bad when they were above the rest.

Fire Toto. Get actual strategists that are good at their jobs.

[lewislorenzo]

Reading Toto’s comments they have no clue at all. Lewis moving to Ferrari is a masterstroke

[NateF]

https://twitter.com/...264968506749395


“The first major stage of the W15 development will take place in Imola.

There, the Silver Arrow will receive a significant aerodynamic upgrade.“

🤞

[Kvothe]

They apparently have 70 points of downforce they can see they have, but can't access. Hoping for the best from this upgrade but will keep my expectations tempered.

[pdac]

They apparently have 70 points of downforce they can see they have, but can't access. Hoping for the best from this upgrade but will keep my expectations tempered.

 

Didn't they have that 2 years ago?

[IceSpeed]

I can’t believe this. Toto is now saying they have downforce but it’s not producing laptime because they need the mechanical (suspension) side of the car working together with the aero (I am paraphrasing) in order for the entire package to work. He says redbull have apparently mastered the suspension and Aero. (The above is paraphrased from Motorsport.com)

Weren’t some very knowledgeable folks on this forum saying the exact same thing years ago? Even as far back as 2022 that the merc suspension is what’s possibly causing these issues and three years later they finally realize this? (I mind blown that a championship winning team is so lost on how to navigate these set of regulations. Looks like what brawn did in 2013 or even earlier was truly the master stroke that helped put them on the map).

Mercedes should have some of their engineers/designers read this forum or atleast get gen AI to summarize the content on how to solve their problems. :/

[Secretariat]

I can’t believe this. Toto is now saying they have downforce but it’s not producing laptime because they need the mechanical (suspension) side of the car working together with the aero (I am paraphrasing) in order for the entire package to work. He says redbull have apparently mastered the suspension and Aero. (The above is paraphrased from Motorsport.com)

Weren’t some very knowledgeable folks on this forum saying the exact same thing years ago? Even as far back as 2022 that the merc suspension is what’s possibly causing these issues and three years later they finally realize this? (I mind blown that a championship winning team is so lost on how to navigate these set of regulations. Looks like what brawn did in 2013 or even earlier was truly the master stroke that helped put them on the map).

Mercedes should have some of their engineers/designers read this forum or atleast get gen AI to summarize the content on how to solve their problems. :/

It almost reminds me of Williams (2003?) when they were kind of lost and got Frank Dernie as a consultant to help with the mechanical grip/suspension/set up, which ended up helping immensely. Mercedes needs their "Frank Dernie".

[CSF]

It almost reminds me of Williams (2003?) when they were kind of lost and got Frank Dernie as a consultant to help with the mechanical grip/suspension/set up, which ended up helping immensely. Mercedes needs their "Frank Dernie".

 

 

Can I recommend Aldo Costa? It's all gone a bit awry since he went. 

[JL14]

They apparently have 70 points of downforce they can see they have, but can't access. Hoping for the best from this upgrade but will keep my expectations tempered.

 

No, what Wolff said was that in Australia they measured they were producing 70 points more downforce in a corner than last year and weren't going a single km/u faster through that corner. So yes, those 70 points of DF are nog being used, but it could as well be 110/140/170/etc. points of DF that they are not using because of a (mechanical?) limitation.

Because Wolff also says that "over these two years we have seen points that there should be much more downforce than we believe it is. And now we've measured the downforce and it is there. But we're just not able to extract the lap time out of it that we should, and that the simulations show us. It's not trivial.” Meaning they already had it last year - and potentially 2 years ago as well - that there should be more laptime in the car because of the DF level it produces, but it's not showing.

 

Wolff goes on saying: “I think that the car is so complex for us, where we put it in terms of the aero balance and mechanical balance. These two need to correlate, and we've followed a certain trajectory over the last years. We kept turning in circles, and we came to a point to say, ‘okay, we've got to do something different here.’” 

[dia6olo]

Didn't they have that 2 years ago?

Nah, it was 140 points of downforce two years ago 

[milestone 11]

They apparently have 70 points of downforce they can see they have, but can't access. Hoping for the best from this upgrade but will keep my expectations tempered.

I've seen a number of references to this, until now, I had not seen the full quote. They truly just dont understand.

From Autosport's premium article today,

 

Wolff said: “We are measuring downforce with our sensors and pressure tabs, and it's saying to us that we have 70 points more downforce in a particular corner in Melbourne than we had last year. But, on the lap time, it is not one kilometre per hour faster. It doesn't make any sense.”

 

[pdac]

I've seen a number of references to this, until now, I had not seen the full quote. They truly just dont understand.

From Autosport's premium article today,

 

Or the staff are just lying to Toto (or both).

[DW46]

Or the staff are just lying to Toto (or both).

Allison - “Dunno Toto my latest model says it’s got an extra 120 points of downforce. It’s in the report I saved for you in file 13.”

Wolff - “Something, something Stopwatch.”

Edited by DW46, 11 April 2024 - 13:51.

[Boxerevo]

News?

 

Or we have to wait for Imola?

[Timorous]

No, what Wolff said was that in Australia they measured they were producing 70 points more downforce in a corner than last year and weren't going a single km/u faster through that corner. So yes, those 70 points of DF are nog being used, but it could as well be 110/140/170/etc. points of DF that they are not using because of a (mechanical?) limitation.

Because Wolff also says that "over these two years we have seen points that there should be much more downforce than we believe it is. And now we've measured the downforce and it is there. But we're just not able to extract the lap time out of it that we should, and that the simulations show us. It's not trivial.” Meaning they already had it last year - and potentially 2 years ago as well - that there should be more laptime in the car because of the DF level it produces, but it's not showing.

 

Wolff goes on saying: “I think that the car is so complex for us, where we put it in terms of the aero balance and mechanical balance. These two need to correlate, and we've followed a certain trajectory over the last years. We kept turning in circles, and we came to a point to say, ‘okay, we've got to do something different here.’” 

 

Sounds like the driver seat is too far back.

[lewislorenzo]

Slower than Sauber…

[hamilton10000]

Lewis did have too big wide moments on his lap which cost him at least 2 tenths, but yeah car is pretty average.

George just didn't look on it at all in this session. Kind of a reverse of what we've seen in most of the season so far

[mclara]

Lewis did have too big wide moments on his lap which cost him at least 2 tenths, but yeah car is pretty average.

George just didn't look on it at all in this session. Kind of a reverse of what we've seen in most of the season so far

Maybe he has lost motivation..

[Dalton007]

Lewis did have too big wide moments on his lap which cost him at least 2 tenths, but yeah car is pretty average.

George just didn't look on it at all in this session. Kind of a reverse of what we've seen in most of the season so far

 

Can't get heat into the tyres.

[lewislorenzo]

Car is good in the wet😂

[Boxerevo]

I went beyond the state of shame about this car, today i went sad watching it in SQ1.

[P123]

I missed the fun as didn't know there was sprint qualy on, but if those dry times are anything to go by then it's going to be a challenge to stay in the points, and doesn't bode well for the real action to come.

[Kvothe]

Nice lap from Lewis in the wet. Can this year just ff pls?

[monolulu]

I missed the fun as didn't know there was sprint qualy on, but if those dry times are anything to go by then it's going to be a challenge to stay in the points, and doesn't bode well for the real action to come.

Need a rain dance!  Will help put fires out too…

Edited by monolulu, 19 April 2024 - 11:46.

[mclara]

Since the team thread is full of LH its time to post something here about Mercedes’ real struggle.

New upgrade (brought forward from Imola?) coming in Miami:

https://www.funoanal...ami-update.html

 

 

F1, Mercedes: up-dates aimed at correcting the W15

 

The seven-time world champion did not escape in the face of his responsibilities, explaining that he opted for a wrong set-up, which will not be repeated. According to the British driver, the one used during the race was probably the worst set-up ever seen in his career. The intent to center the small operating window in which the W15 expresses itself best has led to a serious mistake. More hopeful George Russell, convinced that the fifth stage of the world championship in China can be the basis on which to improve the unstable and grumpy aerodynamic platform of the W15.

[DW46]

Other than Allison (whose decent) who else is on car design at Merc these days?

[monolulu]

https://x.com/merced...W84HRDl3QLYkJNg

Good to hear from Allison 

[MasterOfCoin]

Chinese Race Debrief....

[w1Y]

I mean I'm not exactly technically gifted when it comes to F1 and even I have been saying its clearly all linked to the suspension

https://www.mercedes...cies/REQ-230445

We can give them our armchair expertise

Edited by w1Y, 24 April 2024 - 23:22.

[KWSN - DSM]

No team fully stops development, they say they do, but there are always some little bibs and bobs they keep working on.

 

Development during season sometimes work, sometimes do not, having made a wrong turn in development for the season can be repeated during season - There are no absolutes, Mercedes have gone backways THIS season, 2022 and 2023 they were right there with Ferrari i.e. they have not floundered for 3 season, they made a wrong turn for THIS season, and have all the infrastructure in place to revert to a more competitive level.

[flyboym3]

No team fully stops development, they say they do, but there are always some little bibs and bobs they keep working on.

Development during season sometimes work, sometimes do not, having made a wrong turn in development for the season can be repeated during season - There are no absolutes, Mercedes have gone backways THIS season, 2022 and 2023 they were right there with Ferrari i.e. they have not floundered for 3 season, they made a wrong turn for THIS season, and have all the infrastructure in place to revert to a more competitive level.

Was there a specific question you were trying to answer here?

[KWSN - DSM]

Was there a specific question you were trying to answer here?

 

No I am stating an opinion based on the 5 - 10 accumulated pages on development and the futility of even attempting.

[P123]

No team fully stops development, they say they do, but there are always some little bibs and bobs they keep working on.

 

Development during season sometimes work, sometimes do not, having made a wrong turn in development for the season can be repeated during season - There are no absolutes, Mercedes have gone backways THIS season, 2022 and 2023 they were right there with Ferrari i.e. they have not floundered for 3 season, they made a wrong turn for THIS season, and have all the infrastructure in place to revert to a more competitive level.

 

They weren't with Ferrari in 2022, and were perhaps fortunate to sneak second in the WCC last season.  One win to six by Ferrari, two poles to 19 by Ferrari... They have floundered for three seasons, and haven't made a correct turn yet.  They may have all the tools, but by their own admittance the calibration from factory to track is out, and when a team faces that, they end up like Merc.  Going in circles, waiting for a eureka moment and a fruitful direction of development.