544 replies to this topic

[taran]

The drivers starting at the back of the grid will always crash more than the ones at the front, not because they are worse drivers (some of the are), but for the number of cars in front of them when they start, from the concertina effect hauling into first, second and third corner.

 

Yes, but they know this effect and should take necessary precautions if they have half a brain. I do the same when I am playing a sim racing game. it's not rocket science.

 

The stakes are obviously much higher in any actual race, let alone F1, but the point still stands.

If going all gung ho in the first corner, first lap is the only key to success, they are doing something wrong.

 

What seems to be happening is that drivers get overexcited in the first few corners when "cheap" overtakes are possible and they are high on Senna quotes about not being a racing driver any more if they don't make stupid lunges. If it works, you're a hero. If it fails (as it often does), you are a zero. Think Perez in Mexico 2023.

 

Verstappen was lauded when he calmed down and let the race come to him instead of going mental in the first corner (admittedly, he now has the car to do so) but you can see what they are on about. You can more easily lose the race in the first corner than you can win it. And that applies to the backmarkers and points too.

 

Albon is too experienced by now to not know this and he knew Williams was in trouble regarding chassis and parts. It wasn't his mistake but neither did he take particular care to survive the first lap.

[Sterzo]

An article in the Sports section of today's Times contains startlingly revealing quotes from James Vowles and Pat Fry. It's behind a paywall and I won't breach copyright by reproducing it, but I'm sure the story will spread quickly to other outlets. Fry's comments are actually quite funny.

 

The essence of it is how disorganised Williams are, their poor record keeping meaning they don't know how long it takes or how much it costs to make a part. This implies (my interpretation) that it's impossible to plan or control their activity. And, again by implication, it's unsurprising if you end a winter with no time or money to complete a spare tub.

 

https://www.thetimes...ch-up-bc83bb9w5

[DW46]

Vowles been there a year now should at least have a method to deal with the basics.

[PayasYouRace]

You have to wonder how these systems degrade over time. Or perhaps just fail to keep up with the rest of the logistics and planning worlds? It didn’t seem to be a problem for the team up to as recently as a decade ago.

[Secretariat]

You have to wonder how these systems degrade over time. Or perhaps just fail to keep up with the rest of the logistics and planning worlds? It didn’t seem to be a problem for the team up to as recently as a decade ago.

Not out of the realm of reasonable possibilities to say state of the art can become obsolete relatively quickly. The budgeting piece that Sterzo notes is rather distressing. When some of this stuff started to come to light, it was hard to place a lot blame (if any) of Vowles in my opinion; he's having to fix it. I felt particularly annoyed at the Capito's of the world as they had opportunity to make some fixes. I guess some annoyance with the Williams family and other team leaders as well for not staying current in the first place.

[Disgrace]

An article in the Sports section of today's Times contains startlingly revealing quotes from James Vowles and Pat Fry. It's behind a paywall and I won't breach copyright by reproducing it, but I'm sure the story will spread quickly to other outlets. Fry's comments are actually quite funny.

 

The essence of it is how disorganised Williams are, their poor record keeping meaning they don't know how long it takes or how much it costs to make a part. This implies (my interpretation) that it's impossible to plan or control their activity. And, again by implication, it's unsurprising if you end a winter with no time or money to complete a spare tub.

 

https://www.thetimes...ch-up-bc83bb9w5

 

If anything, this makes Paddy Lowe's tenure look slightly better, or less worse, than it was.

[AlexS]

I don't believe it and this makes me think much worse of Fry and Vowles. There is no way they don't know hoe much it costs a part and still make a car that is less than 2 seconds from RedBull, plus obey FIA resource restriction.

[Sterzo]

I suspect what we have is a common situation in organisations, where they expand to employ more people, and the systems for communication and control don't keep up. A small tight-knit group works best with informal word of mouth communication, but as each group expands so it needs more formal records and a means of ensuring everyone gets the message. If Vowles and Fry have discovered Williams are bit behind the times, well, that's not a total surprise.

[KWSN - DSM]

It is just the latest in a long, long list of Vowels and Fry telling the world how nothing is their fault, that it is all the previous regime - After as long as Vowles have been only thing being exposed is how poor a manager he is, following in the historical footsteps of the Williams family. 

[PayasYouRace]

If anything, this makes Paddy Lowe's tenure look slightly better, or less worse, than it was.

The rot started with him IMO.

[WilliamsF1Fan]

One thing that does bug me about these comments is I do not remember Jost Capito continually making excuses about the poor facilities.  I might be wrong, but if he did it was not as frequently as we seem to be getting now.  

 

I am sure much of it is an attempt to get the powers that be to let Williams spend more to upgrade their facilities.  Hoping to achieve that by boring the opposition into submission, perhaps?

[PayasYouRace]

One thing that does bug me about these comments is I do not remember Jost Capito continually making excuses about the poor facilities. I might be wrong, but if he did it was not as frequently as we seem to be getting now.

I am sure much of it is an attempt to get the powers that be to let Williams spend more to upgrade their facilities. Hoping to achieve that by boring the opposition into submission, perhaps?

To me that suggests one of a couple of things. Either Capito was just knuckling down to get the job done without making a fuss, or he didn’t realise how out of date the team was. Don’t know much about him but the little I know has me leaning towards the former.

[KWSN - DSM]

Employ a driver who should not be in F1

Constant slagging of the team you are supposed to manage

Be unable to have spare tub available until 1/3rd into season

 

Where is Dorilton and their presumed displeasure with this?

[southernstars]

Employ a driver who should not be in F1

Constant slagging of the team you are supposed to manage

Be unable to have spare tub available until 1/3rd into season

 

Where is Dorilton and their presumed displeasure with this?

 

They employed a driver who was performing well in juniors and from their own Academy.

 

They have been fully open and transparent about the team's flaws and what they're doing to fix them.

 

They are not the only team who has not got a spare tub available - Alpine still do not, and they should not be 20 years behind the times like Williams was.

 

I imagine Dorilton have been well briefed that this is going to be a painful process and they have to see out the ride. If they are smart, they will wait for the returns. Short term pain for long term gain.

 

 

In the meantime, Vowles' overhauls must be doing something right, because in spite of the fact that Williams has had to do so much work repairing the chassis, they are reportedly arriving in Shanghai with a new front wing for both cars and a halo fairing update for Albon's.

[Beri]

A friend of mine, totally not into Formula One, has a business trip today. By a client they are being taken to some factory somewhere in Grove. A factory that has got something to do with this thread. It suffices to say that I am a bit jealous.

[southernstars]

A friend of mine, totally not into Formula One, has a business trip today. By a client they are being taken to some factory somewhere in Grove. A factory that has got something to do with this thread. It suffices to say that I am a bit jealous.

 

I'm sort of doodling out a bucket-list long service leave trip for a few years' time at the moment and one thing is that I would love to spend some time in England going around all the famous factories: Milton Keynes, Enstone, Brackley, Grove...

[Beri]

Sounds familiar 

[DogEarred]

I'm sort of doodling out a bucket-list long service leave trip for a few years' time at the moment and one thing is that I would love to spend some time in England going around all the famous factories: Milton Keynes, Enstone, Brackley, Grove...

Don’t forget Chadwell Heath…

[onemoresolo]

To me that suggests one of a couple of things. Either Capito was just knuckling down to get the job done without making a fuss, or he didn’t realise how out of date the team was. Don’t know much about him but the little I know has me leaning towards the former.

 

Capito is also 20 years older than Vowles, and didn't come from the team that had been setting the standards in F1 for a decade. I suspect going to Williams was much more of culture shock for Vowles than it was for Capito, based on their relative prior experiences.

[Myrvold]

I'm sort of doodling out a bucket-list long service leave trip for a few years' time at the moment and one thing is that I would love to spend some time in England going around all the famous factories: Milton Keynes, Enstone, Brackley, Grove...

 

I have a friend who used to work at a driver development center at Silverstone. One of the times I went to the UK to visit him, we stayed at a hotel in Milton Keynes (because he didn't have space enough where he lived to have me over), and we spent one day doing a bit of "F1 Factory Safari". The difference between Red Bull where the receptionist came out of the building, waved at us, and asked us to come in to the (at least then) open entry where they show off some trophies and stuff, and Mercedes that sent a guard to tell us to "bugger off" when we stopped at the parkin lot outside the gates to take a picture was quite massive.

[Myrvold]

Capito is also 20 years older than Vowles, and didn't come from the team that had been setting the standards in F1 for a decade. I suspect going to Williams was much more of culture shock for Vowles than it was for Capito, based on their relative prior experiences.

 

Then again, I would expect that VW's dominant rally programme would be more similar to Mercedes in F1 than Williams.

[gp2username]

Don’t forget Chadwell Heath…

The famous F1 tyre centre?

[Nathan]

Williams old guard within the ranks was a meaningful part of the problem.  Anyone who tried to shift culture largely got sabotaged within.  Some chose to try and live with that, some are willing to blow it up.

[DogEarred]

The famous F1 tyre centre?

No.

It’s the site of an ex F1 factory…

[Beri]

Williams old guard within the ranks was a meaningful part of the problem.  Anyone who tried to shift culture largely got sabotaged within.  Some chose to try and live with that, some are willing to blow it up.

This is how I saw it too. Watch back the DTS episode covering the failure of 2019. Lowe is walking into the garage at Barcelona and ice queen Claire is not even greeting him.
I truly see it as Lowe who had his best intentions but was fighting a rotten system that he couldn't change. When 2019 turned out a failure, he was the scapegoat. Yet it was the core of Williams "doing what we always have done". And there lies the inherent problem which even in racing terms has its own saying; if you aren't progressing or standing still, you're moving backwards.

[Beri]

No.
It’s the site of an ex F1 factory…

Arrows?

[DogEarred]

Arrows?

Noooo


Try again!…

[PayasYouRace]

Noooo


Try again!…

Connew!

[DogEarred]

Give that man a coconut!…

[PayasYouRace]

Mmm! Coconut!

 

That settles it. I’m cooking a korma tomorrow night.

[Beri]

Make that two.

[Beri]

Why is Kraken off the car? Banned in China?

[southernstars]

Why is Kraken off the car? Banned in China?

 

Yes, apparently crypto is illegal in China. McLaren aren't running OKX either.

 

P18 and P20 for qualifying. I think nearly maximum got out of the car since they were only a tenth apart. Not bad for Sargeant, he's never raced here before.

[PayasYouRace]

I thought Kraken was rum.

[Beri]

I thought Kraken was rum.

With a silly drunk pirate as their logo and distributed by a company run by a mouse?

[MattPete]

Vowles been there a year now should at least have a method to deal with the basics.

I thought that was the software they were asking to purchase that in turn would cause Williams to break the cost cap?

[Beri]

The software and licensing arent the major costs. The initial setup and implementation are. And to extent I can vividly imagine this being so much work and hassle that it spirals out of control rapidly. Considering Excel was the go to tool with an intern being a busboy to fetch the parts.

[WilliamsF1Fan]

With a silly drunk pirate as their logo and distributed by a company run by a mouse?

 

No, there genuinely is a Rum in the UK called Kraken who specialise in Spiced Black Rum.  Maybe that is something going wrong at Williams, instead of using their sponsors for investment, they are providing spiced rum to their team?!

[NotAPineapple]

The classic unforced error from Sargent

[southernstars]

The classic unforced error from Sargent

 

Annoying that this is the first post after qualifying, when yesterday everyone was more interested in what Kraken was than the fact that Sargeant was so close to Albon.

 

It was a real shame, he was on a decent lap, too.

[Nathan]

Very, very few are going to be "OMG this time he got within a tenth!", especially when he also...you know...  /goes out to the yard and runs his foot through the river rock.

[Anderis]

Annoying that this is the first post after qualifying, when yesterday everyone was more interested in what Kraken was than the fact that Sargeant was so close to Albon.

 

It was a real shame, he was on a decent lap, too.

Sargeant is nearing his 30th weekend in F1. People are not going to get excited about the fact that he sometimes gets narrowly beaten by Albon instead of decisively beaten. Especially if it happens through Albon qualifying lower than his average rather than Sargeant qualifying higher than his average.

Edited by Anderis, 20 April 2024 - 18:15.

[southernstars]

Good drives from Albon and Sargeant today. Absolute howler by the team not to be watching pit exit and tell Sargeant to give the place back to Hulkenberg before he got a penalty for it.

 

EDIT: After watching Sam Collins' analysis on F1TV I will downgrade from "howler" to "error" but still the team's fault.

Edited by southernstars, 21 April 2024 - 09:23.

[Francesc]

Strategy is still a bit of a disaster getting undercut by everyone behind on the first stop and then pitting immediately at the next lap instead of trying to extend.

But the basic problem is that there isn't enough pace in the car. Let's see when the first real upgrades appear if we see a change.

And Sargeant has been very disappointing so far. I believe he raced today with a more optimised setup than Albon and still been miles off him.

[Moctecus]

And Sargeant has been very disappointing so far. I believe he raced today with a more optimised setup than Albon and still been miles off him.

 

Sargeant was doing pretty well today until they put on the hard tyres for the last stint. He had a lot more degradation than Albon and ran out of grip towards the end.

 

The "optimizations" Williams did to his car include taking off the new front wing (introduced in Suzuka on Albon's car), presumably to conserve parts. Probably the right decision given Williams' poor pace this weekend.