4757 replies to this topic

[jonklug]

I just want to know who the critics are that are denying Max's ability?   As you show with Lewis, there will always be doubters, though I'd say a bit of a difference between a Rosberg and a Bottas, and Lewis wouldn't have been sweating over the line in '16 were the car issues reversed.  I agree Max would beat anybody on the grid right now in the same car.  Perhaps Charles would cause him the most issues.  Lewis and Fernando look a good step off of their prime selves now.  The driver to properly take it to Max may not yet be on the grid.  

 

I really like Charles but still feel he has too many mistakes in him - and big ones at that. But with each passing year he gets more experience so perhaps next time he has a championship winning car, he can deliver. Still, for now he's still a question mark for me, not because lack of talent or pace, but ability to always be there and maximize a weekend. 

Edited by jonklug, 18 November 2024 - 07:02.

[renzmann]

I just want to know who the critics are that are denying Max's ability?   As you show with Lewis, there will always be doubters, though I'd say a bit of a difference between a Rosberg and a Bottas, and Lewis wouldn't have been sweating over the line in '16 were the car issues reversed.  I agree Max would beat anybody on the grid right now in the same car.  Perhaps Charles would cause him the most issues.  Lewis and Fernando look a good step off of their prime selves now.  The driver to properly take it to Max may not yet be on the grid.  

 

Oh, the usual. Jacdaniel summed it up nicely. Always an excuse to assume we're not seeing anything special. Even in Brazil people write he was lucky

 

And yes, Rosberg obviously was a much better driver than Bottas. Rosberg had to work hard for his title, and indeed needed a bit of luck. The fact he didn't allow Hamilton payback says it all, really.

 

Agree with everything else you say as well

 

 

I really like Charles but still feel he has too many mistakes in him - and big ones at that. But with each passing year he gets more experience so perhaps next time he has a championship winning car, he can deliver. Still, for a now he's still a question mark for me, not because lack of talent or pace, but ability to always be there and maximize a weekend. 

 

Yes, but I do agree with P123 Leclerc is the most promising challenger of Verstappen in the field. Hamilton and Alonso were better than Leclerc, but it seems (?) those days are over. I rate Leclerc higher than Norris, Russell, Sainz and Piastri - easily. Imagine Leclerc having driven a McLaren this year!

Edited by renzmann, 17 November 2024 - 21:15.

[jonklug]

Yes, but I do agree with P123 Leclerc is the most promising challenger of Verstappen in the field. Hamilton and Alonso were better than Leclerc, but it seems (?) those days are over. I rate Leclerc higher than Norris, Russell, Sainz and Piastri - easily. Imagine Leclerc having driven a McLaren this year!

 

I rate Leclerc higher than Norris on pure pace, for sure. Charles is a very very fast driver, there are no doubts. But look - at least Norris didn't bin it from the lead (although he did come close in Singapore), didn't bin it in quali, didn't spin out to lose unnecessary points. His mistakes generally have been related to the start procedure or trying to play it a bit too safe on lap 1 + some McLaren lapses in judgement. If Charles were in that McLaren this year sure, you could say he would have won more, had better starts etc, but then looking at the past few years, including when he had a very strong car in the first part of 2022, there are still those times when he perhaps pushes too hard and loses the car. Which hasn't really happened with Lando. 

Edited by jonklug, 18 November 2024 - 07:10.

[Ali623]

I rate Leclerc higher than Norris on pure pace, for sure. Charles is a very very fast driver, there are no doubts. But look - at least Norris didn't bin it from the lead (although he did come close in Singapore), didn't bin it in quali, didn't spin out to lose unnecessary points. His mistakes generally have been related to the start procedure or trying to play it a bit too safe on lap 1 + some McLaren lapses in judgement. If Charles were in that McLaren this year sure, you could say he would have won more, had better starts etc, but then looking at the past few years, including when he had a very strong car in the first part of 2022, there are still those times when he perhaps pushes too hard and loses the car. Which hasn't really happened with Lando. 

 

I think that between the likes of Leclerc, Norris, Verstappen, Russell ect there's probably not really much at all seperating them on pure pace - dependant more on their car preferences/setup.

 

Verstappen is the best in all areas essentially - pace, racecraft and consistency + is also largely pretty mistake free under pressure - if he has any weakness it's that he sometimes goes over the limit when defending against a quicker car but that's about it.

 

Leclerc is the only match for Verstappen in racecraft, particulary defensive driving - also race pace/tyre management etc, where again Leclerc is actually pretty underrated. It's in races where he often impresses more against Sainz than in qualifying. His main weakness is those silly mistakes as you say, otherwise I see him as the second best behind Max currently.

 

Norris in terms of pace and race management is probably every bit as good, but his racrecraft (specifically overtaking/defending) and decision making when racing is pretty poor which is why I rate him a level below Verstappen and even Leclerc currently.

 

Russell is hard to rate because he's on paper done an exceptionally good job against Hamilton, but how much has Hamilton regressed if any? Again, he's likely at least as fast on pure pace as the others, but seems a bit clumsy at times when racing.

[jacdaniel]

Things can also change so quickly in F1. I remember at the end of 2020 thinking that Max would be one of those great drivers that might never win titles. Mercedes looked unstoppable at the time and there was no guarantee that Honda would be successful or that Red Bull would get the 2022 regs right.

While I still think Max will be the best driver, it’s anyone’s guess who might win in the next few years.

At the moment, I still think that Charles, Lando and George are all good drivers but they all make silly mistakes at times. I think they’d all really need a very good car to win championships

[PrinceBira]

I think that between the likes of Leclerc, Norris, Verstappen, Russell ect there's probably not really much at all seperating them on pure pace - dependant more on their car preferences/setup.

 

Verstappen is the best in all areas essentially - pace, racecraft and consistency + is also largely pretty mistake free under pressure - if he has any weakness it's that he sometimes goes over the limit when defending against a quicker car but that's about it.

 

Leclerc is the only match for Verstappen in racecraft, particulary defensive driving - also race pace/tyre management etc, where again Leclerc is actually pretty underrated. It's in races where he often impresses more against Sainz than in qualifying. His main weakness is those silly mistakes as you say, otherwise I see him as the second best behind Max currently.

 

Norris in terms of pace and race management is probably every bit as good, but his racrecraft (specifically overtaking/defending) and decision making when racing is pretty poor which is why I rate him a level below Verstappen and even Leclerc currently.

 

Russell is hard to rate because he's on paper done an exceptionally good job against Hamilton, but how much has Hamilton regressed if any? Again, he's likely at least as fast on pure pace as the others, but seems a bit clumsy at times when racing.

 

I like your assessment above.

 

The only thing I would add where I think Verstappen is a clear clear clear step above every other current (and past?) F1 driver is that he is insanely consistent.

 

Even when he has a particularly bad weekend, he still is more or less on the pace. He doesn't go AWOL during phases of the season. As an example, Hamilton used to have a 'slow start' to the season and when the title was sealed he seemed to back off a bit. Verstappen in my view is on it from the first FP in the year until the very last lap of the last race of the year. The number of races where he underperforms is extremely low. That strength allows him to even score quite OK in his bad races and to maximize when the car is strong. Overall that creates a point scoring machine.

 

The other guys in my view have more ups and downs. Even this year, whilst it is a strong year for him, Leclerc had a stretch of races in the middle where he didn't seem to be particularly strong. Same for most other drivers. Their form tends to be more up and down. Whereas Verstappen his baseline level is just so high, that he never really has an off weekend (with some exceptions of course). 

[jacdaniel]

That last paragraph pretty much nails it. Verstappen is so good he challenges the narrative that F1 is all about the car. Which it was until Verstappen grew post Monaco 2018. (I indeed think Verstappen wouldn't have won 2021 and, presumably, 2024 had he not learned from his mistakes that weekend.)

I do think the critics have one point though. Verstappen's team-mates have always been good or solid midfield drivers. Prime Ricciardo was a strong driver, and Sainz was a good challenge at TR, but he has never faced a superb driver as a team-mate. I have no doubt he'd beat anybody on the grid with the same car, but I can see how the team-mates leave a question mark (even if Verstappen totally crushes them year after year).
Equally, I have doubts whether Hamilton's WDCs at Merc were truly great, since I am not convinced Rosberg and Bottas are fantastic drivers - still, Rosberg beat Hamilton in the WDC once, and Bottas was able to win races. In turn, Hamilton scoring as many points as his team-mate Alonso in his rookie season and winning the WDC in his second season tell me way more about Hamilton's greatness.

I always think Maxs team mates get hugely underrated because he crushes them so much and the Red Bull is a very hard car to drive. But I think Albon in particular is a good driver.

It will be interesting to see how he performs against Sainz next year. Sainz has been up against Charles and Lando in the last few seasons and done quite well.

If Albon beats him, surely he’ll get a lot of credit for that and then Max also as a result.

But in terms of superb, I just don’t see that happening much anymore. History that shows that 2 great drivers in the same car doesn’t go well.

[Ivanhoe]

Dutch newspaper Algemeen Dagblad republished an article about Max and Jos from 2007. Apparently Max was a Lewis and Kimi fan as a 10 year old, given his answer when the reporter asked about his favourite drivers.

 

His big hero is Lewis Hamilton. "But he shouldn't have put his car in the gravel trap in Shanghai. I also like 'Kimi', sir."