421 replies to this topic

[Benzai]

It’s somewhat absurd to think that any teams would want to return to the money losing business model vs. literally printing money those days

 

If the business model wasn't generating cash over the long term, teams would leave the sport. Like Toyota and Honda did. 

 

Teams may make bigger profits now, but the whole 'championship', if you can still call it that, is more boring than it ever was. I'd much prefer lower profits with more competition in the championship.

[PitViperRacing]

If it was impossible for teams to catch up with the budget cap, why has there been such a drastic shift in the teams positioned 2-10? Look at how every team shifted between 2022-2023 (https://au.motorspor...-2022/10558035/), and that's happening again this year.

Red Bull is an anomaly because they've just crushed this set of regulations/every aspect of their operation is running exceptionally. It's not the budget caps fault.

[Benzai]

If it was impossible for teams to catch up with the budget cap, why has there been such a drastic shift in the teams positioned 2-10? Look at how every team shifted between 2022-2023 (https://au.motorspor...-2022/10558035/), and that's happening again this year.

Red Bull is an anomaly because they've just crushed this set of regulations/every aspect of their operation is running exceptionally. It's not the budget caps fault.

 

Oh so the championship is all about close racing of teams positioned 2-10 and not about winning races and the championship...?  As if we didn't have drastic shifts of those positioned 2-10 before... 

 

The budgetcap exaggerates the dominance because teams that would normally have the financial means to make live harder for RB are unable to do so with a limited budget. Even the FIA acknowledge that:

 

"In older times, some teams would occasionally start a season and be in a really quite bad place, because they would have maybe messed up the project or concept or whatever," he continued. "They arrive and are humiliated for the first few races.

"...but then you just make a massive upgrade package for Barcelona or Canada or something, and you'd virtually redesign the whole car like crazy for three or four months and then be winning races during the season."

"However, the current financial regulations limit the amount of upgrades you can do. So, if somebody is further back, the recovery can be quite long and painful."

 

https://www.pitpass....s-of-budget-cap

Edited by Benzai, 25 April 2024 - 12:39.

[Laptom]

LOL! And where do you get this wisdom from?

From the drivers itself during interviews. It is close, but the Merc and especially the Fer is the more powerful.
Watch the interviews from Russel and Norris last year for the Merc engine.

[Laptom]

If the business model wasn't generating cash over the long term, teams would leave the sport. Like Toyota and Honda did.

Teams may make bigger profits now, but the whole 'championship', if you can still call it that, is more boring than it ever was. I'd much prefer lower profits with more competition in the championship.

Where were you in 2014 and 2020? The field is closer then ever in the complete history of F1?
Give it 2 more years and also the RB is on the same pace as the other teams. Problem is that they start with a whole new engine formula in 2026 and technical wise not the most efficient one, so let's see what that will bring.

[thefinalapex]

Someone that has Mercedes as its favourite team complains about dominance, you just can't make this up all those years before when people complained about how dominant they(Mercedes) were, the comments were: Other teams should get their act together, the racing behind is them great, admire the technical excellence etc, and now when the shoe is on the other foot that all has gone out of the window, ironic to say the least. And pre budget cap there has never been big shuffles in the competitive order during seasons so i can't understand bringing that as an argument. Maybe those same people should have a think that without a budgetcap RB could be maybe much further ahead instead of sulking everytime because their favourite driver/team isn't winning.

[Benzai]

Where were you in 2014 and 2020? The field is closer then ever in the complete history of F1?
Give it 2 more years and also the RB is on the same pace as the other teams. Problem is that they start with a whole new engine formula in 2026 and technical wise not the most efficient one, so let's see what that will bring.

 

2014 atleast we had 2 almost equal drivers fighting for the championship and 3 race wins by RBR. In 2020 we even had 2 small teams each WINNING a race and RBR winning 2 races in a season with just 17 races.  

 

So yes, things were a lot better back then when we had multiple teams winning races aswell as a championship fight between drivers in equal machinery.

 

Not just 1 team winning all but 3 races since midway 2022 and with margins of +20secs race after race.

Edited by Benzai, 25 April 2024 - 13:30.

[Benzai]

Someone that has Mercedes as its favourite team complains about dominance, you just can't make this up all those years before when people complained about how dominant they(Mercedes) were, the comments were: Other teams should get their act together, the racing behind is them great, admire the technical excellence etc, and now when the shoe is on the other foot that all has gone out of the window, ironic to say the least. And pre budget cap there has never been big shuffles in the competitive order during seasons so i can't understand bringing that as an argument. Maybe those same people should have a think that without a budgetcap RB could be maybe much further ahead instead of sulking everytime because their favourite driver/team isn't winning.

 

What are you talking about? Dominance has been a part of this sport since I started watching in 1994. It's the fact that nobody can make the big gains necessary to catch RBR due to the budgetcap. This exaggerates the dominance, which is confirmed by the assesment of the FIA in the post I did earlier. 

 

And I'm not even going to reply on the nonsense of there being no big shuffles in competitive order as you've obviously either never paid attention or just weren't following the sport yet. 

 

RBR would not be further ahead without a budgetcap. By spending more RBR would hit the development ceiling much earlier and as such their development curve will get steeper which in turn would allow other teams to make the bigger gains required to catch them. Like it has always been before.

Edited by Benzai, 25 April 2024 - 13:43.

[Ivanhoe]

Okay, this is enough about the budget cap and it's relation to RBR's dominance, let's talk about the team again. Off topic posts will be removed. Thanks.

[ferrarista]

https://www.laola1.a...t-helmut-marko/
.

So were the worries of Marko about Newey’s departure?

[nivoglibina]

Most of us here are Verstappen fans, who've had a pretty boring last 2 years compared to his earlier career. I guess we welcome the departure of Newey so we can see some wheel to wheel action again

[Sparky68]

2014 atleast we had 2 almost equal drivers fighting for the championship and 3 race wins by RBR. In 2020 we even had 2 small teams each WINNING a race and RBR winning 2 races in a season with just 17 races.  

 

So yes, things were a lot better back then when we had multiple teams winning races aswell as a championship fight between drivers in equal machinery.

 

Not just 1 team winning all but 3 races since midway 2022 and with margins of +20secs race after race.

And what about between 2014 and 2020  ?Merc ran their engine scaled back most of the time such was its dominance.

[WouterF1]

Verstappen and Mercedes: Things get serious after Miami

After Adrian Newey, Red Bull is also in danger of losing Max Verstappen. Negotiations with Mercedes are scheduled.

In the 14 days after the event in Florida and the European opener in Imola, there will be concrete negotiations between Mercedes and the Verstappen team - consisting of the driver himself, his father Jos and manager Raymond Vermeulen. As F1-Insider.com learned, Mercedes F1 team shareholders Toto Wolff, CEO Ola Källenius and Sir James Ratcliffe (Ineos) want to meet with the Verstappen clan.

The Dutchman will then decide whether he wants to move to Mercedes next year. This is made possible by an exit clause in his contract, which states: If his mentor and confidant Helmut Marko (Red Bull motorsport consultant) is no longer on board, the winning Dutchman can leave the Red Bull ship early. Marko, that's for sure, won't stand in Verstappen's way if necessary.

https://f1-insider.c...ndlungen-63046/

[jonklug]

That would be a Schumacher-esque move for sure. But I'm afraid like back then, it would also take Max a few years before he is able to win a title with his new team. 

[George Costanza]

That would be a Schumacher-esque move for sure. But I'm afraid like back then, it would also take Max a few years before he is able to win a title with his new team.

Yes but would Adrian go to Mercedes? Like when Ross followed Michael at Ferrari. I imagine Mercedes would have a go at getting Adrian.

Edited by George Costanza, Yesterday, 15:27.

[jonklug]

Yes but would Adrian go to Mercedes? Like when Ross followed Michael at Ferrari. I imagine Mercedes would have a go at getting Adrian.

 

I'm sure they would, but that's an unknown. But even if they were to get whatever engineers they want, you have the gardening leave and then settling in, starting on a completely different car in completely different regulations (2026). Just like in 1996, it wouldn't be instant. Now of course if Mercedes are capable of once again creating the most powerful PU, it would help accelerate the process but there's a lot of unknows there. This is still all speculation of course, giving up an almost guaranteed title would be an insane move - but I do think Verstappen is capable of it. 

 

Still, it would be sad to see how this great team and great personnel go their separate ways because Horner couldn't have the decency to resign. 

[Venom]

If he does intend to leave, Max would be wise to use his leverage to broker a deal for 2026 rather than 2025, given how obsessed Mercedes’ are in signing him.

If they’re willing to throw €150 million at him I doubt the idea of waiting an extra year is one they’d refuse. Even with the shorter term driver dilemma it creates.

Edited by Venom, Yesterday, 19:40.

[Yoshi]

Well.. how reliable is Ralf Bach? He is writing a lot of stuff, but not sure how much is truth in there... but lets see. 

[renzmann]

If he does intend to leave, Max would be wise to use his leverage to broker a deal for 2026 rather than 2025, given how obsessed Mercedes’ are in signing him.

If they’re willing to throw €150 million at him I doubt the idea of waiting an extra year is one they’d refuse. Even with the shorter term driver dilemma it creates.

 

Would be weird though. A Merc contract, but driving another 1.5 years for RBR? I bet Horner would be capable of putting many obstacles in Verstappen's way if he did that. Then again, I don't think Verstappen's fourth WDC will be secure if he leaves as early as 2025 - because of Horner.

 

Well.. how reliable is Ralf Bach? He is writing a lot of stuff, but not sure how much is truth in there... but lets see. 

I consider him reliable with anything concerning RBR. I remember him calling pretty much every single detail of the Horner saga long before those messages leaked.

[jacdaniel]

Max would be stupid to join Mercedes in my opinion. They look absolutely lost as a team and going backwards. They certainly don’t look capable of building a really competitive car in these regs.

They’ve lost Lewis and lots of staff. I think Ferrari, Aston and even McLaren look better placed to challenge in the future

[renzmann]

Hamilton wanting to leave Merc is a weird one. Otherwise, I'd put my money on them in 2026.

[jacdaniel]

Hamilton wanting to leave Merc is a weird one. Otherwise, I'd put my money on them in 2026.

Out of curiosity, why?