89 replies to this topic

[Lee Nicolle]

Having seen the never ending b/s about Pinto engines that were never a US engine how on earth are they known as such. Yes they were an International Ford engine from Germany and were used in Pintos as well. BUT for me in Oz they were the 2 litre Cortina engine that at times found its way into Escorts and in England it seems Capris as well.

I have owned quite a few as cheaper used cars. They go ok though have an appetite for cams. An cam belts. And too often leak oil. And being all iron are heavy.

I know that in a Escort you can feel that weight compared with a pushrod engine but the extra grunt makes up for less balance.

They were moderatly succesfull in 2 litre Touring cars, better than the 1.6 twin sump. And Bob Holden owns a fleet of them that he rents out for people racing GpC Tourers. So still a few on the tracks even now.

BUT how on earth do the Europeans call them Pintos as they are a Euro engine.

[BRG]

I had always assumed it was a crappy US engine that was foisted on us poor Euros by the wicked Ford empire.  But on checking, Lee is absolutely correct that it was a Ford Europe product originally that got foisted on them poor Yanks. 

 

It has always been known as the Pinto in the UK - never the Taunus In-Line (TL) which was its official designation.  So we just made the connection to the infamously inflammable US Ford Pinto saloon and blamed it all on Uncle Sam. 

 

The fact that anybody has ever made that engine work well is more of a credit to the engineering skills of the motorsport community than to Ford.  Interestingly, the Millington DIamond competition motor much used in rallying is a direct descendant of the Pinto (TL) via the COsworth YB, although apart from the odd washer, I doubt it there any parts common to both!

[Michael Ferner]

I don't know that it was ever called a Pinto here, was that a UK thing? We had a few Pintos on the roads here due to the US soldiers in our area, and prompted I now seem to recall a few of them making it to the Ford garage where my father worked (which makes sense if they really had a Cologne engine).

[BRG]

I don't know that it was ever called a Pinto here, was that a UK thing? 

Very much so.  I never heard it called anything else.  Or at least nothing that I would want to repeat here!

[john aston]

Maybe it's that perverse English trait which also makes people pronounce Weber as if it were the surname of a former Red Bull driver ?    

[Myhinpaa]

My understanding is that the European Ford OHC/EOA engine was used at first in the Mercury Capri and Ford Pinto from '71 to '74ish.

A new engine - based on the layout of the European OHC - was then introduced with 2.3 displacement, manufactured at the Lima Engine Plant, Ohio.

 

The engine is often referred to as "LIma" in the US, a 2 litre-version was later produced too, just to confuse matters even more...

 

Regarding camshaft/follower wear, the spraybar and its feed is not very good to start with, when it starts to clog up the wear accelerates even more.

The spraybar should always be replaced together with cam/followers. Boreham designed a special Gp.1 camshaft which was cross drilled to massively

increase the oil flow to the followers, a splash plate had to be fitted over the cam on those Gp.1 engines.

[Charlieman]

Maybe it's that perverse English trait which also makes people pronounce Weber as if it were the surname of a former Red Bull driver ?    

Edoardo Weber was Italian and the letter W is not present in the normal Italian alphabet. So the carb should be known as an 'eber?

[Bikr7549]

This engine is used quite a lot in SCCA Formula Continental (FC) with fairly limited mods allowed, producing about 160 hp as I recall. We always referred to it as the 2 liter Pinto engine. It was (and still is I presume) a pretty reliable and low cost unit. Wasn't this engine the basis for the 'SPorts 2000' series?

[GazChed]

Not just Sports 2000, which is still going strong after forty seven years (albeit sharing a grid with modern Duratec engined cars) but Formula Ford 2000 which will celebrate it's fiftieth anniversary in 2025.

Unlike many other slicks and wings Formulae which have come and gone and are very rarely seen these days the Historic Formula Ford 2000 championship, for cars built before 1984, features large grids of well prepared cars which provide close racing at a (fairly) reasonable cost.

Edited by GazChed, 16 January 2024 - 16:03.

[john aston]

Edoardo Weber was Italian and the letter W is not present in the normal Italian alphabet. So the carb should be known as an 'eber?

He may have been Italian but unless I am seeing things W is certainly present in his name . In his case it was from his Swiss father  and it isn't pronounced  'webber' 

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by GazChed
Not just Sports 2000, which is still going strong after forty seven years (albeit sharing a grid with modern Duratec engined cars) but Formula Ford 2000 which will celebrate it's fiftieth anniversary in 2025.

Unlike many other slicks and wings Formulae which have come and gone and are very rarely seen these days the Historic Formula Ford 2000 championship, for cars built before 1984, features large grids of well prepared cars which provide close racing at a (fairly) reasonable cost.

I often wonder about this...

I also dislike the regular (original) Formula Ford as it put a lump of iron in the back of delicately-designed cars when much nicer engines could have been chosen.

I'd imagine that race preparation of the 2-litre engine is as difficult or expensive as those old FFord engines became.

[chr1s]

He may have been Italian but unless I am seeing things W is certainly present in his name . In his case it was from his Swiss father  and it isn't pronounced  'webber' 

I used to work in a Fiat- Lancia and Alfa garage and remember it being pronounced as Vabour? (like labour but with a V)

[brucemoxon]

I often wonder about this...

I also dislike the regular (original) Formula Ford as it put a lump of iron in the back of delicately-designed cars when much nicer engines could have been chosen.

I'd imagine that race preparation of the 2-litre engine is as difficult or expensive as those old FFord engines became.

 

Yes, but then Ford wouldn't have chucked a bucket of money at the class to get it started. While the Kent 1600 might not be the lightest, it certainly seems to have spawned a lot of good tuning options and didn't it serve as the basis for the Cosworth FVA? 

 

 

 

BRM

[Bloggsworth]

I often wonder about this...

I also dislike the regular (original) Formula Ford as it put a lump of iron in the back of delicately-designed cars when much nicer engines could have been chosen.

I'd imagine that race preparation of the 2-litre engine is as difficult or expensive as those old FFord engines became.

Perhaps FF should have had a specially designed, lightweigh, overhead cam engine at 10 times the cost, thus strangling it at birth...

[Ray Bell]

In my opinion, and it's a strong and oft-berated opinion...

 

There were other engines. There were better engines. The concept would have held up with a number of different engines and I don't think the amount of money put in by Ford would have been as large as the additional costs to competitors making their Ford engines as reliable as those other engines.

 

The engines from the likes of Fiat, Renault, BMW and Nissan could also have come with some manufacturer backing while delivering lighter and more reliable engines of similar power output.

[brucemoxon]

Fair enough. But there are many and infinitely-better mechanical packages than Volkswagen, yet here is Formula Vee, still. 

 

Doesn't have to be the best, just has to work. Both Formulae have had long and happy lives and are healthy still, if a bit changed. 

 

 

 

BRM

[Bob Riebe]

As the Cosworth YB was in an odd way the equivalent of the Cosworth Vega engine -- the YB worked,  the Vega version did not, therefore I would say the Ford block was a much better idea.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 17 January 2024 - 16:57.

[DouglasM]

The Two Litre OHC as I always called it, was a truly awful design.

No other engine wore out its cam so quickly and replacing it was an expensive head off or engine/gearbox out job.

Why, oh why, couldn't the cam to removed from the front of the engine?

[Rupertlt1]

I used to work in a Fiat- Lancia and Alfa garage and remember it being pronounced as Vabour? (like labour but with a V)

 

Vabour was the universal pronunciation at Goodwood when I were a lad. While we are at it Lima (in Ohio) rhymes with climber, and not Leema, as in dreamer.

BTW there was a simple factory fix for the exploding Pinto problem, involving a piece of cardboard?

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 17 January 2024 - 07:20.

[john aston]

One can sneer at the old Kent but FF1600 has been the best single seater formula ever conceived . I've watched it since I saw Ricardo Achcar win at Oulton Park in a Merlyn in '68 and not only has it been the stepping stone to so many greats . it has offered unrivalled close racing and is still doing so. And the Kent was part of the success.  

[Ray Bell]

Of course the Ford engine was a part of the success...

 

But it would have achieved the same success, probably at a lesser cost, if a different engine had been chosen.

[GregThomas]

One of the things I've noticed about the FF Kent engine over the years is that no matter how ingeniously a cheater engine is put together, it can't make up for a lack of driving skill.

In my experience talking to engine builders and competitors here, a cheater can at best get you from the back of the field to mid-pack.

So from that unusual viewpoint it was a good choice.

 

Those of my acquaintance using the 2l pinto in race applications always seemed to be moaning about the rods.....

[GTMRacer]

Of course the Ford engine was a part of the success...

 

But it would have achieved the same success, probably at a lesser cost, if a different engine had been chosen.

 

I doubt it could of been cheaper to go with Fiat, Renault, BMW or Nissan than Ford, I'm not sure what you are basing that on but the Ford Crossflow has proven its worth time and time again

within all motorsport levels and categories, particularly FF1600.

[Ray Bell]

I knew an engine builder who specialised in FFord engines...

 

He kept me abreast of the costs and reliability issues. They were things which wouldn't happen with, for instance the Renault 16TL or TS engine, or the Nissan L16 engine, both of which were also lighter than the Ford.

 

The Ford component is not what made FFord a success, it's the fact that a single make of engine was chosen and a suitable level of tune selected. If I recall, it went with Ford because the Jim Russell school used FJunior cars which were Ford powered and found it more economical to run standard-tune 1500cc engines which bolted straight in.

[opplock]

I doubt it could of been cheaper to go with Fiat, Renault, BMW or Nissan than Ford, I'm not sure what you are basing that on but the Ford Crossflow has proven its worth time and time again

within all motorsport levels and categories, particularly FF1600.

 

It definitely couldn't have been Formula Datsun as they weren't sold in UK until late 1968. There were plenty of crossflows around in UK in 67 and quite a few companies tuning them. I doubt that Formula Fiat or BMW would have lasted long. The crossflow also kept Caterham and other manufacturers going until the early 90s.   

[BRG]

At the time, picking the Kent engine for FF was a no-brainer.  They were easy to source and Mr Ford was ready to ante up some cash.  The only other sensible options in late 1960s UK would have been a BLMC or a Rootes engine, none of which were any better than the Kent engine.  The non-UK marques that Ray suggests were still seen as exotic, expensive and rare beasts and it would not have even crossed anybody's mind to specify a motor from any of them.

 

The Kent has proved to be very reliable and long lasting so it was an ideal and economical choice for a bargain-basement formula aimed at people starting off in circuit racing.  The incredible success of the formula tells us everything we need to know.  The legendary engine known as 'Patch' was built from a repaired block and won many races over many years to rather prove the point..

Edited by BRG, 17 January 2024 - 10:31.

[Sterzo]

Nissan imported its first cars to the UK in 1968. As others have said, the Kent was an ideal engine. So what if lighter ones existed? FF was nothing to do with maximising performance. A friend and I watched the first race at Brands Hatch in 1967 and agreed it would never catch on. But then he'd tipped Rodney Nuckey for world champion, and I still get most things wrong.

[Ray Bell]

The Renault engine, of course, was at that time being used in the Lotus Europa...

 

Colin Chapman's mind wasn't so tightly closed.

[GreenMachine]

The Renault engine, of course, was at that time being used in the Lotus Europa...

 

Colin Chapman's mind wasn't so tightly closed.

 

CC chose an engine/transmission that allowed a mid-engined car to materialise.  And the legendary twink was a Ford, as was the 7's engine - CC seemed to find them acceptable ...

[marksixman]

Yes, but then Ford wouldn't have chucked a bucket of money at the class to get it started. While the Kent 1600 might not be the lightest, it certainly seems to have spawned a lot of good tuning options and didn't it serve as the basis for the Cosworth FVA? 

 

 

 

BRM

Whilst the Kent may have been the basis for the FVA, and the FVA head was very much part of the genesis of the DVF, let's not forget that the Pinto block was the basis for the Sierra Cosworth engine.

Edited by marksixman, 17 January 2024 - 13:00.

[Michael Ferner]

I can't believe we're having this discussion because of the opinion of an anonymous engine builder on the other side of the world. Not even Australia saw those imagined shortcomings of the Ford, they jumped on the FF1600 bandwagon, too, didn't they? It's a case of one voice against thousands, virtually millions. Ray, your horse is deader than a dead parrot.

[john aston]

The Renault engine, of course, was at that time being used in the Lotus Europa...

 

Colin Chapman's mind wasn't so tightly closed.

 Indeed- he saw the light and stuck his own Ford based  twin cam in the Europa in 1971, thereby endowing the  car with the performance the looks had previously only promised. . 

[RS2000]

What an interesting thread to have developed while I have been away. The only other description than "Pinto" I have ever heard is "Ford SOHC", I have long experience of it in standard 2 litre form in a Cortina Estate that also did duty as International Rally service car on occasion. In modified form an ex-police unit with standard but balanced bottom end never failed in 9 Internationals including 2 RACs without any rebuilding. I saw an awful lot of Crossflow Kents fail. One advantage of the Kent was that it was possible for four blokes to lift it out of an Escort in a roadside lay by and change a cam follower and still get to the next control on time on an RAC (David Williams, later to be Richard Burns' mentor). You couldn't do that in a Pinto Escort.

[Bob Riebe]

I find this debate on Ford Four-Bangers rather interesting;  a rather unknown topic over here until Ford started using Four-Bangers in their Group 5 Mustang.

[Lee Nicolle]

The Two Litre OHC as I always called it, was a truly awful design.

No other engine wore out its cam so quickly and replacing it was an expensive head off or engine/gearbox out job.

Why, oh why, couldn't the cam to removed from the front of the engine?

Because it is German. Lets over complicate things.

[Lee Nicolle]

I had always assumed it was a crappy US engine that was foisted on us poor Euros by the wicked Ford empire.  But on checking, Lee is absolutely correct that it was a Ford Europe product originally that got foisted on them poor Yanks. 

 

It has always been known as the Pinto in the UK - never the Taunus In-Line (TL) which was its official designation.  So we just made the connection to the infamously inflammable US Ford Pinto saloon and blamed it all on Uncle Sam. 

 

The fact that anybody has ever made that engine work well is more of a credit to the engineering skills of the motorsport community than to Ford.  Interestingly, the Millington DIamond competition motor much used in rallying is a direct descendant of the Pinto (TL) via the COsworth YB, although apart from the odd washer, I doubt it there any parts common to both!

Since the Pinto came a couple of years after the engine I still have no idea how Europe calls an engine an American name.

There was a Cosworth version of this engine sold as a budget midget/ speedcar engine I have no idea on spec but it went ok and was quite cheap. The weight though was the killer over the more touted tein cam version, effectivly a BDG. Which sounded magic but was again overcome by the so called agricultural Sesco [half a 327 Chev]

These days it seems the Toymota is the go,, just very expensive.

And yes Taunus is a Cortina in drag for Europe.

[Lee Nicolle]

What an interesting thread to have developed while I have been away. The only other description than "Pinto" I have ever heard is "Ford SOHC", I have long experience of it in standard 2 litre form in a Cortina Estate that also did duty as International Rally service car on occasion. In modified form an ex-police unit with standard but balanced bottom end never failed in 9 Internationals including 2 RACs without any rebuilding. I saw an awful lot of Crossflow Kents fail. One advantage of the Kent was that it was possible for four blokes to lift it out of an Escort in a roadside lay by and change a cam follower and still get to the next control on time on an RAC (David Williams, later to be Richard Burns' mentor). You couldn't do that in a Pinto Escort.

Just need 4 weightlifters!

[Lee Nicolle]

Whilst the Kent may have been the basis for the FVA, and the FVA head was very much part of the genesis of the DVF, let's not forget that the Pinto block was the basis for the Sierra Cosworth engine.

Correct a Sierra engine was a twin cam engine on a 2 litre block. And for whatever the diehards say they were not a very good engine. They exploded,,, a lot.

[Lee Nicolle]

CC chose an engine/transmission that allowed a mid-engined car to materialise.  And the legendary twink was a Ford, as was the 7's engine - CC seemed to find them acceptable ...

Dont forget Chapman was in England where all the tuners etc for the Kent were.

I have never been a fan of twinsumps as they usually had more oil outside the engine than in.

No doubt you can make them go even in Mk1 Escorts and Cortinas. But not for very long.

Though to make a Renault 16 make that sort of power nor would that engine.

[Lee Nicolle]

At the time, picking the Kent engine for FF was a no-brainer.  They were easy to source and Mr Ford was ready to ante up some cash.  The only other sensible options in late 1960s UK would have been a BLMC or a Rootes engine, none of which were any better than the Kent engine.  The non-UK marques that Ray suggests were still seen as exotic, expensive and rare beasts and it would not have even crossed anybody's mind to specify a motor from any of them.

 

The Kent has proved to be very reliable and long lasting so it was an ideal and economical choice for a bargain-basement formula aimed at people starting off in circuit racing.  The incredible success of the formula tells us everything we need to know.  The legendary engine known as 'Patch' was built from a repaired block and won many races over many years to rather prove the point..

While never loving Kent Ford engines they were common in most markets. The original rules, at least here allowed the 1500 Cortina GT engine or the 1600 x flo Capri engine. And in fairly standard form they seem to be reliable enough. I have seldom seen them explode,, and even then not 'good' ones near the front of the field.

Making big hp and high rpm is another matter.

[BRG]

Making big hp and high rpm is another matter.

Indeed, but for Formula Ford, they were mandated to be kept essentially in production spec.  The most that tuners were allowed to do was 'blueprint' them to ensure that all the clearances etc were spot on.  So even when abused by the sort of maniacs that raced in FF, the Kent engine was very reliable.

 

But the mystery of how it got dubbed 'Pinto' remains when it was first offered in 1970 in the European Cortina/Taunas models, a year before the US Pinto became available with this lump. Maybe the notoriety of the Pinto with its problems over sticking accelerators and exploding fuel tanks was more intriguing than the lack-lustre Mk3 Cortina.

Edited by BRG, 18 January 2024 - 10:07.

[Michael Ferner]

German wikipedia says:

 

Bekannt wurde der Motor auch als Pinto, benannt nach dem Ford Pinto, für den das Aggregat ursprünglich entwickelt wurde.

 

"Aka Pinto, named after the Ford Pinto for which the engine was originally developed"

 

Though,as said, I don't remember "Pinto" being used in Germany at all, but maybe it was in certain circles. However, could it be that it was a Cologne design originating in the need of Detroit to have something radically new, something they had no experience in ("Four cyclinders? FOUR?? Why, that's only half an engine!!!")? So, Detroit asked Cologne to develop that engine, and Cologne (along with Dagenham) thought, let's go with that and build a new car as well. Synergy! 

[kayemod]

He may have been Italian but unless I am seeing things W is certainly present in his name . In his case it was from his Swiss father  and it isn't pronounced  'webber' 

 

 

Maybe it's that perverse English trait which also makes people pronounce Weber as if it were the surname of a former Red Bull driver ?    

 

Given the way that the English, in common with almost all of the non German and Italian world mispronounce respectively "Porsche" and "Alfa Romeo", their mispronunciation of "Weber" probably seems logical to most of them.

 

In the same way, only Polish UK immigrants were ever able to pronounce "Kubica" correctly.

[Michael Ferner]

Kubica? 1600 for the Kent, 2000 for the Pinto and 2300 for the Lima!

[Sterzo]

I don't think adapting pronunciation is exclusive to any nationality. Just look at any European city and how it's pronounced - or even spelled - in neighbouring countries. We had a discussion on here once about the "correct" pronunciation of Mercedes, a German car with a Spanish name given to it by a Hungarian so he could sell them in France. And a friend whose native language is Malayalam asked English me if I liked eating pizzer.

[RCH]

I had always assumed it was universally called Pinto and was so named because it powered an American Ford of that name.

There seems to be a degree of condemnation of the engine on this thread which seems odd to me given the popularity of Escort RS2000 cars in UK rallying. I've little knowledge of Ford engines in competition but I have driven probably 300,000 miles in Pinto powered Cortina company cars with never a problem, at least none concerning the power plant. I've heard Pintos with rattly camshafts but that certainly never troubled mine. I was told it was a problem that Ford sorted early in the production of the engine. 

 

Changing the subject, I always slightly wince when I speak of "Webber" carburettors or "Ceebee" lamps but that's how it is in the UK! I seem to remember a discussion here a while ago concluding that Alfa "Rowmeyo" is more correct? 

[john aston]

See also 'Porsh'... . I ,too ,wince at the cultivated ignorance some of my countrymen.  And any dealer who is selling a Lamborghini they call a 'Muira' should be firebombed.    

[Michael Ferner]

In Germany, they're mostly called Lambor-genie! I always ask how they liked their Spa-jetty...

[DogEarred]

Indeed, but for Formula Ford, they were mandated to be kept essentially in production spec.  The most that tuners were allowed to do was 'blueprint' them to ensure that all the clearances etc were spot on.  So even when abused by the sort of maniacs that raced in FF, the Kent engine was very reliable.

 

 

Yes, they were essentially very reliable.

 

But one rarely occurring fault (for me - once in 1o years) was the crankshaft would break, between the third & fourth conrods, under sudden deceleration or change down. 

The bottom of the engine, at least, would be a write off.

 

Two other engines completely lunched themselves for me but they were down to traceable oil supply faults.

 

BTW - I could remove the engine from the car by myself AND lift it onto the bench! - Not to be recommended though...

[RS2000]

Just need 4 weightlifters!

No it's a question of access (a longer engine never designed for the car) ( and of course changing a cam follower on a Pinto doesn't need removal of engine).

 

Does anyone know who designed the famous "Group One" Pinto cam? The WR30 was soon changed to the WR40 and I never had any problems with the latter. As far as I know it originated in Germany and I have heard Doctor Schrick's name mentioned (although he was better known for VWs.at that time).