221 replies to this topic

[New Britain]

Really, this all comes down to the sporting regulations. The FIA have drawn up regulations that say what and what is not allowed in terms of co-operation between teams. As long as the FIA are satisfied that there is nothing underhand going on, then that's the end of the matter. 

And you are basing this on the FIA's impeccable history of excellent governance, transparency, integrity, and putting the best interests of the sport first? 

[pdac]

And you are basing this on the FIA's impeccable history of excellent governance, transparency, integrity, and putting the best interests of the sport first? 

 

Of course. A fine, upstanding establishment.

 

(an establishment that makes the rules, polices them as they see fit and interprets them as they see fit)

Edited by pdac, 19 February 2024 - 12:23.

[New Britain]

Of course. A fine, upstanding establishment.

 

(an establishment that makes the rules, polices them as they see fit and interprets them as they see fit)

Now, now. I have it on good authority that the FIA has improved since Max Mosley left! (What's that you say - improving over Max Mosley is analogous to being larger than a sub-atomic particle?)

[Nathan]

The problem is that they’re really not keen on teams coming anymore.

 

Is that because none are going away anymore?  Last 2 decades show, old teams failing leads to new teams being brought in.  The 90's was bring new teams in then watch old ones go.

[PayasYouRace]

Is that because none are going away anymore? Last 2 decades show, old teams failing leads to new teams being brought in. The 90's was bring new teams in then watch old ones go.

Sorry what? Which new teams came in when Manor, Caterham and Hispanics failed?

[Nathan]

When they failed it was back to 10.  They were brought in because the futures of Williams, Sauber and Force India were bleak - meaning potential for just 7 teams.  Plus 3 auto makers just pulled the plug leaving a 4th entry in peril in the middle of the new team search.  Haas came in with the last of those 3 left hanging by a thread and still uncertainty at Williams and Force India. Still risk of falling below 8.

Edited by Nathan, 19 February 2024 - 16:59.

[pup]

The problem is that they’re really not keen on teams coming anymore.

 

I think everyone would be fine with Andretti buying a team.  So kill two birds with one stone and get RB to sell their second team to Andretti.  

[ATM]

Andretti might think twice before buying Toro Rosso (they're still Toro Rosso to me, yes). They're not exactly autonomous. Better than Haas, for sure, and better than a greenfield project, but he might still face an uphill struggle/investment to make them stand on their own feet.

[pdac]

Andretti might think twice before buying Toro Rosso (they're still Toro Rosso to me, yes). They're not exactly autonomous. Better than Haas, for sure, and better than a greenfield project, but he might still face an uphill struggle/investment to make them stand on their own feet.

 

Surely all Andretti would be after is the entry and the commercial contract that they have. Andretti is already gearing up to do the rest of the stuff.

[Secretariat]

I think everyone would be fine with Andretti buying a team.  So kill two birds with one stone and get RB to sell their second team to Andretti.  

I think your statement will be the eventual outcome.

 

a) Andretti and whatever combination of a USA PU supplier will eventually be allowed to compete.

b) Questions about Red Bull's dual ownership will become moot and RB will see a good ROI on the original purchase of Minardi.

c) The push for teams to implement a franchise model will be maintained and revenues for 10 teams will be preserved.

d) The actual sporting regulations regarding 26 entries will be amended after Andretti's entry reaches a resolution.

 

Not saying I would like it, but think eventually that is what will happen.

[PayasYouRace]

When they failed it was back to 10. They were brought in because the futures of Williams, Sauber and Force India were bleak - meaning potential for just 7 teams. Plus 3 auto makers just pulled the plug leaving a 4th entry in peril in the middle of the new team search. Haas came in with the last of those 3 left hanging by a thread and still uncertainty at Williams and Force India. Still risk of falling below 8.

And we never reached the maximum of 13 at any point.

[loki]

Now, now. I have it on good authority that the FIA has improved since Max Mosley left! 

 

The new guys really spanked the place into shape…

[New Britain]

The new guys really spanked the place into shape…

 

Yes, they would have learned a thing or two from Max Mosley about spanking.

The best thing about Todt as FIA President was that he was not Mosley. In his 12 years in the job, Todt did essentially nothing, which was an improvement over Mosley, who did many things, almost all of which were bad.

MBS has made some questionable decisions, although the position that he took on was compromised from literally his first day, and since then has been made more difficult by a commercial rights holder that is far more assertive than CVC ever was, by teams that have never had it so good financially, which seems to have emboldened them too to be more assertive, and by FIA internal politics, which lately has seemed pretty fractious.

At the moment the FIA President appears to have less influence than the person in that position has had in decades, maybe ever. One wonders what would unfold if MBS were to try to institute a rule barring a single party from controlling more than one team. It's not a Concorde Agreement issue, so, AFAIK, the FIA on its own could impose such a rule. How various teams would react to the proposal of such a rule change would be fascinating.

[Nathan]

And we never reached the maximum of 13 at any point.

 

We haven't since 1995, probably because it is not sustainable.  During the vast majority of F1s life, and during the max 13 team period, there has always been well below 13 teams.  The only concern is keeping it above 8 teams for TV/race contracts.  It seems more a regulation for circuits than anything.

[Clatter]

We haven't since 1995, probably because it is not sustainable. During the vast majority of F1s life, and during the max 13 team period, there has always been well below 13 teams. The only concern is keeping it above 8 teams for TV/race contracts. It seems more a regulation for circuits than anything.

It wasn't sustainable in the past, but with the budget cap I think would be. Shouldn't be forgotten that the 3 teams that joined back then, did so on the premise that there would be a budget cap. This was subsequently cancelled. Without the lie of a budget cap I doubt many would have applied.

[PayasYouRace]

We haven't since 1995, probably because it is not sustainable. During the vast majority of F1s life, and during the max 13 team period, there has always been well below 13 teams. The only concern is keeping it above 8 teams for TV/race contracts. It seems more a regulation for circuits than anything.

The sustainable point was always for the number of cars that could qualify. Things got ridiculously expansive in the mid-90s and it meant those extra 3 teams would have to rely more on the top 10 WCC prize money.

With the budget cap now firmly in place and working well, it should once again be sustainable to have a full field. There’s no excusing the greed of the teams and FOM. There’s more money in the sport than ever and the cost of competing is now limited. They’re in less danger of going bust than ever.

[FullThrottleF1]

It's all pointless.

FOM and the boys club has won and the fans have lost

[pdac]

The 13 team number was just something that was plucked out of the air, probably based on how many teams could be practically accommodated at the existing tracks. I don't believe it was ever a serious target to aim at.

[RedRabbit]

Bit of a gap between 45 and 145 but I see your point. FOM can see everyone's books, we can see some, maybe not quite there yet.

​Going back to 1995, William had a 228 headcount and an inflation adjusted to 2023 budget of £71.4 million. Benetton was £77.8 mln and 212 staff, so we can see how F1 economics aren't the same in 2024. Adjusted for inflation Simtek did '94 with £10 million. Who is running an F1 team on 80 million, let alone 10 million today?

Interesting to see a comparison to WEC budgets....

[Nathan]

And let's remember the budget cap only covers certain expenses, and most certainly doesn't cover a lot of big tabs.

[loki]

It's all pointless.

FOM and the boys club has won and the fans have lost

Andretti Cadillac is domed!!!!

 

 

[loki]

And let's remember the budget cap only covers certain expenses, and most certainly doesn't cover a lot of big tabs.

Yep like the big one of the loose nut on the steering wheel. Sir Lew in Italian red will be more than a quarter of the cap.  The kid from Hasslet isn’t too far behind.