340 replies to this topic

[Risil]

In 2024?

It would probably have to be 2025 now

[Oulton]

For me, what is needed to improve F1 is a number of things, the main one being not knowing who will win each race from a minimum of 3 or 4 drivers/teams. The rules have focussed on getting the cars being closer in performance and that has certainly been achieved but they haven't improved the racing. The only exciting elements of F1 are qualifying and the first 2 laps of a race. 

 

I do wonder if it is time we forget about the DNA of F1 and start thinking about some sort of handicapping, or BOP?. If not that, then have F1 cars with far less grip and braking performance so we end up with all races similar to as if they were racing in slippery conditions. My enjoyment of V8 Supercars for example is because they are not robot piloted machines, but 'organic' racing and even if there is tyre management, like in all racing. 

Tyre management and car size isn't specifically what's killing F1, cycles of domination is. I know I'm peeing into the wind with my view because F1 just must have the fastest cars.

Would I enjoy a V8 race with the F1 drivers more than current F1? Too right I would.

Edited by Oulton, 19 March 2024 - 17:46.

[nivoglibina]

Having the best driver in the best car, starting in front of everyone else is a recipe for a boring race.

 

I know it is against what people view as traditional F1, but if you want to see exiting racing you need to change something in the first sentence.

[pdac]

Overall, I agree with this line of thinking. The amendments I would make to the budget cap would be the inclusion of driver salaries and replace the exemption for the 3 highest paid staff with having team leadership included into the cap. For example, Team Principal, Technical Director, Chief Aerodynamicist (or their functional equivalents in the different teams) are all subject to the cap. Also, I would not mind seeing an increase of the overall cap number to the original proposed amounts.

 

I'd include absolutely everything in the cap (including drivers). Make the competition about building the best package for a specific amount.

[Oulton]

Having the best driver in the best car, starting in front of everyone else is a recipe for a boring race.

 

 

That's the DNA of F1 I was referring to... the aim of all teams is to have that. It's pretty much how F1 has always been but now we have more sanitised tracks, incredible reliability, easy cars to race, engineers coaching drivers how to manage their race, banks of computers and masses of data. 

It is all too scientific now

[tweiss]

1000HP 20,000 RPM V10's

[F1Frog]

Ban the tyre warmers!

[Wuzak]

give more by place descending to the last guy is never subject to grid penalties

 

Removing grid penalties for cars at, or near, the back don't really help because they will still be at the back.

[William Hunt]

forbid drivers to sign multiple-year contracts, always maximum 1 year deals. Silly Season extravaganza every year then.

[pdac]

forbid drivers to sign multiple-year contracts, always maximum 1 year deals. Silly Season extravaganza every year then.

 

And stop drivers from competing in F1 for more than 3 years in a row (1 year off and then they can come back).

[Clatter]

I guess if it were phased in it would just come down to issuing contracts that were not long enough to pass that age. So they would not be sacked, it would just be that their contract would not be renewed.

Same effect. They would be losing a job based purely on age, and not ability. That's unfair in any workplace.

[Jones Foyer]

Neutral downforce/no wings, maximum length of car set about 50cm shorter than current average. Also, drivers have to all stay at the same crap hotel every race weekend and eat continental breakfast buffet together. Good for Netflix.

[pdac]

Same effect. They would be losing a job based purely on age, and not ability. That's unfair in any workplace.

 

They already have restrictions with regard to drivers. Yes, it's unfair, but is it illegal? And would it really be problematic to such highly paid individuals who also have plenty of other opportunities?

[ANF]

Ban the tyre warmers!

Good idea! It could make racing more exciting for a couple of laps after every pit stop.

[kar]

In 2024?

 

And 2025 and 2026 and 2027, and so on.

[Clatter]

Ban the tyre warmers!

They have been trying to ban tyre warmers for years, but keep backtracking. At least they have reduced the temps the tyres can be heated to.

[Oulton]

Ensuring that the top 6/8 drivers were placed in the top 3/4 teams would help. How that driver list would be determined I don't know 

[Clatter]

Ensuring that the top 6/8 drivers were placed in the top 3/4 teams would help. How that driver list would be determined I don't know

Isn't that near enough the current situation?

[Oulton]

Isn't that near enough the current situation?

I did look over the last seasons from and including 2020.. it's maybe sort of like that last couple of years, but of course depends who are considered top 6 or top 8 

[pdac]

Isn't that near enough the current situation?

 

Don't say that - the Dan fans will be up in arms.

[ARTGP]

Some people may know already, but the WRC has announced a raft of technical changes for the 2025 season that is probably a blueprint for what F1 should be doing right now. The gist of those changes are as follows:

 

1) Removal of hybrid system

2) Reduction of overall weight

3) Reduced aero front and rear

FIA on X: "#WRC - Big announcements for the future of the FIA @OfficialWRC were made at the World Motor Sport Council in February Have a glimpse of how the Rally1 and Rally2 cars are set to evolve in the upcoming year! https://t.co/HxXI2kTAnL https://t.co/zjnUxqrrye" / X (twitter.com)

 

F1 racing would probably improve if you did the same thing. The hybrid PUs are complicated and are the big performance differentiator between the PU manufacturers and will probably be the same in 2026. Lighter cars are nimbler in the corners and need less aero (therefore less wake and less sensititivty to wake) to maintain their speed. 

Edited by ARTGP, 20 March 2024 - 15:40.

[Secretariat]

Interesting recent series of posts/ideas related to drivers. Perhaps a F1 Driver Draft and establishing a Trade Market isn't such a silly idea after all.

[Sterzo]

Also, drivers have to all stay at the same crap hotel every race weekend and eat continental breakfast buffet together. Good for Netflix.

Wouldn't it be intriguing if that turned out to equalize driver performance, with Sargeant, Verstappen and Zhou battling for wins?

[Nathan]

What makes them so special that they shouldn’t be included?

 

If you are a team owner playing team boss you can pay yourself $1 as a wage and pay yourself a dividend to supplement.

Edited by Nathan, 20 March 2024 - 17:51.

[F1Frog]

Isn't that near enough the current situation?

 

I would say so. It is only really Perez and Stroll driving much faster cars than their abilities would warrant. I would say the best driver outside of the five faster teams is probably Esteban Ocon, and only Perez and Stroll in those top five teams are worse than him. Maybe Piastri too, but if so then not for long.

[ARTGP]

If you are a team owner playing team boss you can pay yourself $1 as a wage and pay yourself a dividend to supplement.

 

I always thought of this as the Toto Wolf loophole.  Toto isn't going to have anything blatantly silly like $1 on the record books, but I doubt he is Merc's highest earner or even in the top 3 exemptions due to this. It frees up a spot for another highly paid employee. 

Edited by ARTGP, 20 March 2024 - 17:55.

[Secretariat]

If you are a team owner playing team boss you can pay yourself $1 as a wage and pay yourself a dividend to supplement.

I suppose wage scales can be applied. Minimum wage for Team Principals and CEO's (or different team's functional equivalents) based on market values. Everyone seems to know their salary value when it comes to earning more, so let's use that in reverse.

[Oulton]

I would say so. It is only really Perez and Stroll driving much faster cars than their abilities would warrant. I would say the best driver outside of the five faster teams is probably Esteban Ocon, and only Perez and Stroll in those top five teams are worse than him. Maybe Piastri too, but if so then not for long.

It would be nice, but I don't believe the finishing order of a F1 Championship is ever the ability order of the drivers.

[azza200]

More free to air TV coverage 

[FLB]

These days, I just wish I could ONE morning get up without being pissed off about something relating to the sport I love.

 

 

One. Single.

[azza200]

They have been trying to ban tyre warmers for years, but keep backtracking. At least they have reduced the temps the tyres can be heated to.

 

The drivers whine about it too much for them to keep backtracking on it. If sportscars cars and endurance drivers can handle a few laps surely the "pinnacle" of drivers in world should be able to manage but they cant and cry about it rather then accepting a rule change. 

 

I mean last year Le Mans had tyre warmers for safety reasons rest of the season no tyre warmers. IMSA has none at all none last year or this year they just got on with it. Shame F1 driver need pandering so much 

[Bliman]

Having the best driver in the best car, starting in front of everyone else is a recipe for a boring race.

 

I know it is against what people view as traditional F1, but if you want to see exiting racing you need to change something in the first sentence.

Having two of the best drivers in the same team

[nivoglibina]

Having two of the best drivers in the same team

Very good solution, but how would you change the rules to make that happen

[IrvTheSwerve]

People watch sport for different reasons. Sure there has been lots of dominance in various sports over various periods but I stop watching that sport when it becomes too predictable. Tennis was fantastic when we had Federer v Nadal v Djokovic. It became boring when Nadal and Federer were retired/injured and Djokovic won most majors without much of a challenge.

 

Other periods of dominance in other sports aren't like what we're seeing here. There is no jeopardy here. City won the treble but didn't win every game. Ali didn't win every fight. Tiger didn't win every tournament.

 

It's very impressive what Red Bull have done, they've created a monster of a car, have a fantastic team and 1 elite driver and 1 journeyman. The consistency and lack of mistakes is incredible. It's boring as **** though. Similar to Vettel in 2013 when he won 9 in a row, it's very impressive but I don't enjoy watching it and so I stop watching it. I didn't watch qualifying today, I won't be getting up for the race tomorrow.

 

Others are free to get up early and enjoy watching perfection. If that's what you enjoy, then great. It isn't for me.

Yeah, I had a bit of a ‘what am I doing watching this?’ moment while watching qualifying (recorded, like hell I’m getting up for this anymore lol). It was actually a bit of a sad epiphany. Maybe it was the fact we’re at Albert Park and my memories of pre-2013 kicked in.

 

As you say, there’s dominance and there’s dominance. Max won nearly every GP last year and it’s looking extremely likely that it will happen again this year…I can’t see more than 2 or 3 non-Max wins (and that includes Perez too).

 

During the Schumacher or even Vettel dominance, the cars looked and sounded lively to watch…I feel like I’m staring at the screen these days just waiting for VER to top the session. 
 

Modern F1 is so formulaic and lacks any kind of jeopardy…and even then DRS does its best to destroy any kind of jeopardy. If Max started say 15th tomorrow, I’d still have him favourite to win. 
 

I appreciate the amazing job they are doing but man, it’s gotten past that stage now.

[Primo]

The tragedy in F1 is that we have been robbed of racing for over a decade by Pirelli. Their hypersensitive tires have made obscure temperature management the #1 road to success in both qualifying and the races. The "window" is a bit wider nowadays, but still way too narrow.

[JoeShmoe]

Yeah, I had a bit of a ‘what am I doing watching this?’ moment while watching qualifying (recorded, like hell I’m getting up for this anymore lol). It was actually a bit of a sad epiphany. Maybe it was the fact we’re at Albert Park and my memories of pre-2013 kicked in.

As you say, there’s dominance and there’s dominance. Max won nearly every GP last year and it’s looking extremely likely that it will happen again this year…I can’t see more than 2 or 3 non-Max wins (and that includes Perez too).

During the Schumacher or even Vettel dominance, the cars looked and sounded lively to watch…I feel like I’m staring at the screen these days just waiting for VER to top the session.

Modern F1 is so formulaic and lacks any kind of jeopardy…and even then DRS does its best to destroy any kind of jeopardy. If Max started say 15th tomorrow, I’d still have him favourite to win.

I appreciate the amazing job they are doing but man, it’s gotten past that stage now.

Great post, agree 100%. This is the first season in 15 years I simply won’t be watching a lot of it as it’s just so dull

[EvilPhil II]

The tragedy in F1 is that we have been robbed of racing for over a decade by Pirelli. Their hypersensitive tires have made obscure temperature management the #1 road to success in both qualifying and the races. The "window" is a bit wider nowadays, but still way too narrow.

 

Absolutely. It is the first time since 1990 that I am skipping coverage and simply looking at results.  

 

The F1 and F2 cars simply appear like they are moving on wheels of cheese.  There is nothing about them characteristic wise that gains my attention. 

 

Meanwhile, IMSA and WEC have something that F1 seems to have lost. And despite being far slower than F1 or F2 the key noticeable difference is the tyre manufacturer. 

 

FOM and the FIA have made a terrible terrible error and underestimate the impact and damage this supplier is having on the spectacle which ultimately once the buzz dies down will impact attendance records, TV viewership, social media interactions and so forth.

 

A very very dark day - https://www.fia.com/... a further year.

[w1Y]

The tragedy in F1 is that we have been robbed of racing for over a decade by Pirelli. Their hypersensitive tires have made obscure temperature management the #1 road to success in both qualifying and the races. The "window" is a bit wider nowadays, but still way too narrow.

I used to think this bit actually I'm not so sure.

I'm not convinced having tyres that can go flat out all then Time will improve racing. It will just mean that there is one less variable for the cars and anyway they will always manage because of reliability of components.

If anything I think the more sensitive tyres sometimes ended up in forces different strategies etc. It was a bit artificial and I don't particularly like it but at the moment every driver seems to be on the same optimal strategy which brings me.on to what I think is the real problem.

The sports too clinical. There. Needs to be less real time data but allow for more testing. So teams get time to test things but have less control via data during an actual race weekend.

Edited by w1Y, 23 March 2024 - 12:51.

[George Costanza]

Wow… I never thought I’d say it but even I’m starting to lose the enthusiasm for watching the races. It really is most depressing this year, something has to change.

Same thing happened in 2002 and 2004. Now granted... Much better looking cars and sound.

Edited by George Costanza, 23 March 2024 - 12:53.

[Primo]

Yeah, I had a bit of a ‘what am I doing watching this?’ moment while watching qualifying (recorded, like hell I’m getting up for this anymore lol). It was actually a bit of a sad epiphany. Maybe it was the fact we’re at Albert Park and my memories of pre-2013 kicked in.

 

As you say, there’s dominance and there’s dominance. Max won nearly every GP last year and it’s looking extremely likely that it will happen again this year…I can’t see more than 2 or 3 non-Max wins (and that includes Perez too).

 

During the Schumacher or even Vettel dominance, the cars looked and sounded lively to watch…I feel like I’m staring at the screen these days just waiting for VER to top the session. 
 

Modern F1 is so formulaic and lacks any kind of jeopardy…and even then DRS does its best to destroy any kind of jeopardy. If Max started say 15th tomorrow, I’d still have him favourite to win. 
 

I appreciate the amazing job they are doing but man, it’s gotten past that stage now.

I got the vibes from Mercedes "Let's keep the engines in economy mode until the final runs in Q3" this morning. Maybe RB, or Max himself, wanted to give us hope all the way until Q3? It is weird though, the field is so tight that you get almost all of it into what was a common time space between the top three  in the yesteryear, but but is still very predictable. 

[Rediscoveryx]

If drivers weren’t talking about tyre management then we wouldn’t even know that they were doing it. The management itself is actually unavoidable (unless they develop ultra hard tyres that don’t wear at all, or reintroduce refuelling, but then there’d be moans about that instead). It’s primarily an issue of perception.

I think a few simple tweaks would go a long way towards reinteoducing ”the spectacle”. Such as:

* Use a no-banker style qualifying system (ie; either one lap system or a only-last-flyer-counts system). Purpose is to add variability to the grid formation.

* If it rains, we race. Period. Figure it out but don’t give the race director the option of delaying races or red flaggong just because of the weather.

* Use separate tyre compounds for free practice and limit it to one session of no longer than one hour (maximum).

* Only allow FIA personnel to have radio contact with the drivers during races. Teams can listen in on drivers but not communicate back to them.

* Remove DRS, or have it function more like push-to-pass in Indycar (i.e limited to a set number of activations or time used).