194 replies to this topic

[PassWind]

4 livery launches now, and it seems Black (or naked carbon fiber) is the order of the day.
I take it there’s no way to manufacture the carbon in alternative colours?
I get it’s a weight saving thing… would it be overkill to mandate that the car must be painted/wrapped on all visable surfaces?

Fix it in one swipe of the pen, points awarded every race for best dressed.

But a serious take, they can play with weight rules to enforce this. You stipulate what must be painted, you take known data and establish an achievable weight using a FIA mandated paint supplier to a minimum thickness on a mean average surface are of the cars. Easily accessible just asking the teams how much surface area does your car have in the various mandated area's, do with all cars made under the regs if you need to. Add the maximum surface area of any current made car add an agreed percentage that the car wouldn’t reasonably exceed in size and that’s the weight penalty all cars get of which the weight of the paint makes up part thereof or all of it if you need it. The rest is to be carried in a designated ballast area so no team gets an extreme ballast advantage.

Everyone gets a paint parity weight allocation, everyone gets to see great liveries without carbon. Teams get to fully advertise their wares as per normal without trying to compromise it. If you want to add the superficial bits because the sport is money, get the damn billboards right.

Edited by PassWind, 18 February 2024 - 06:51.

[PayasYouRace]

Do we have any info on which teams paint and which teams wrap?

[pdac]

Do we have any info on which teams paint and which teams wrap?

 

If the weight makes so much difference, why wouldn't all teams choose the same (the lightest one).

[PayasYouRace]

If the weight makes so much difference, why wouldn't all teams choose the same (the lightest one).

Yes which is why I understand that the teams generally use wraps nowadays, but a lot of people are talking about paint.

 

The bare carbon thing seems more like a fad than an actual performance goal, and I think people give it way too much importance. Typically, as with a lot of F1 fandom issues, it’s people complaining about something superficial and making a lot of noise.

 

The McLaren, Sauber and Mercedes liveries all look fab this year, to me.

[ATM]

Does bare carbon handle better în regards to air friction than wrap/paint?
I know it looks as a silly question at first, but we've seen teams last year cover up parts ends/joints with duct tape to improve air flow so...might as well just ask.
Edit: I seem to remember teams washing/cleaning up cars between sessions to elliminate dust, which has a small detrimental effect on air flow. Does bare carbon attract more or less dust during a race than wrap/paint?

Edited by ATM, 18 February 2024 - 11:38.

[William Hunt]

It's already bad enough that we now have a team named 'Visa Cash App RB' (wow nice identity for an F1 team Red Bull...), that we also have teams just not painting half (or more than half) of their cars.  FIA should urgently step in here and mandate painting all visual parts. AND mandating a white round area with a large black number in it, so we can at least identity the car and who's driving it.

[RacingFan10]

Mandatory paint in all the bodywork (floor excluded), exposed carbon banned, simple

[pdac]

Mandatory paint in all the bodywork (floor excluded), exposed carbon banned, simple

 

Nah, include the floor too.

[PayasYouRace]

F1 has far too many rules mandating things that aren’t safety or performance related. Let them decorate the cars how they want.

 

Whats so offensive about bare carbon anyway? Why is it more offensive than bare metal, which I’ve rarely seen complaints about?

[CoolBreeze]

F1 has far too many rules mandating things that aren’t safety or performance related. Let them decorate the cars how they want.

 

Whats so offensive about bare carbon anyway? Why is it more offensive than bare metal, which I’ve rarely seen complaints about?

 

I agree. There's other bigger problems to deal with than 'bare carbon exposure nonsense'.

 

Grow up.

[JimmyClark]

For me I don't really care about naked carbon, but the side effects is that it is becoming harder to tell cars from each other at distance (particularly if at the track, and at night), or when they are in the background on TV. It is just a little irritating that you need a couple of extra seconds to identify. Not to mention someone like my wife, who has terrible eyesight so can't easily see the graphics on screen so relies on the cars being distinguishable.

There will always be a couple of cars that look similar, but this year it could be 3-4 or even 5 that are open to confusing, particularly as the Aston looks black at night races.

[pdac]

F1 has far too many rules mandating things that aren’t safety or performance related. Let them decorate the cars how they want.

 

Whats so offensive about bare carbon anyway? Why is it more offensive than bare metal, which I’ve rarely seen complaints about?

 

Agree. But, on the other hand, if they need to adjust the rules to slow cars down a bit, then mandating paint/wrap is one measure they ought to consider.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

It would also help the costs due to the restrictions! You think about the running costs of the spray booths, painter, cleaner sundries, etc...

[PayasYouRace]

Agree. But, on the other hand, if they need to adjust the rules to slow cars down a bit, then mandating paint/wrap is one measure they ought to consider.

They’d need something worth a lot more than a handful of tenths a lap to make a noticeable difference if they want to slow the cars down.

[Burai]

Mandatory paint in all the bodywork (floor excluded), exposed carbon banned, simple

 

And what if they all decide they want to paint the car black?

[PayasYouRace]

And what if they all decide they want to paint the car black?

Then we can make it like a school sports day. A red team, a yellow team, a green team, a blue team, etc. And the drivers and pit crew can wear coloured bibs.

[JHSingo]

Whats so offensive about bare carbon anyway? Why is it more offensive than bare metal, which I’ve rarely seen complaints about?

 

Okay, I'll answer...

What's the problem with it? It just looks so cheap and awful, and is incredibly lazy livery design to boot. The Alpine is perhaps the worst offender this year, and to my eyes it looks like an F1 car that has been parked in a dodgy area at night and had paint stripper poured all over it. 

 

Liveries are a key part of what motorsport are about. They are a team's visual identity, a way for you to easily pick out your favourites or choose a favourite when you're younger. How many of us, I wonder, became fans of Ferrari in our youth because we liked those famous red cars?  Or Jordan with their vibrant yellow colours? Or Arrows when they had that distinctive orange livery? 

 

I personally believe that every team should have its own strong visual identity - whether that's Ferrari with red, Aston Martin green, Mercedes silver, etc - and you should be able to immediately identify them at a glance. Just as you should be able to immediately identify who the teams are in any sports game or match.

 

And it's particularly important given that in the modern era, Formula One cars are so visually alike. The reason why a lot of newer fans care about liveries more than anything else during a car launch is because unless you're very technologically minded, noticing other visual differences between the cars is very difficult. Hell, I've watched F1 for 25 years, but if all the cars were painted the same colour, I'd probably struggle to say who was who.

 

Lastly, it's probably a cliché by now, but F1 is supposed to be 'the pinnacle of motorsport'. As such, there's a high level of professionalism you come to expert from these teams. Turning cars out in an unfinished state in the sort of 'livery' (I use the word loosely for some of them this year) that they'd previously have used during winter testing does not look particularly professional. Indeed, maybe this is a subjective view, but I think that if a team has to go to such extreme lengths as not painting the car to be more competitive, then it reflects very poorly on them. It looks a bit desperate, really. 

 

Thank goodness the expected front running teams have painted their cars more than those that will probably be towards the back of the grid. 

 

I agree. There's other bigger problems to deal with than 'bare carbon exposure nonsense'.

 

Grow up.

 

Just because there are bigger problems doesn't mean this isn't a problem too. 

[PayasYouRace]

It’s not a problem though. It’s just people having a whinge.

So far each car this year has a distinctive livery that reflects the brand that the team is advertising (which might be themselves).

The performance issue is really a red herring. The weight of vinyl wraps isn’t that significant. It’s just a fad, and some teams pull it off well, others don’t.

And then there’s the double standard of bare metal being acceptable, even cool, but bare carbon isn’t, which you didn’t address at all.

[JHSingo]

And then there’s the double standard of bare metal being acceptable, even cool, but bare carbon isn’t, which you didn’t address at all.

 

According to who? I certainly haven't said or believe such a thing - I always prefer to see my race cars fully painted, thanks!

[PayasYouRace]

According to who? I certainly haven't said or believe such a thing - I always prefer to see my race cars fully painted, thanks!

It’s a general trend. I’ve never seen the Silver Arrows criticised as being unfinished or cheap, from any motorsport fan. I’ve always seen it described as iconic. But I guess it’s fine if you see them that way, and it would be a first for me to see someone say that.

[JHSingo]

It’s not a problem though. It’s just people having a whinge.

 

By the same logic, you can say that the 2014 noses weren't a problem either, and it was just people having a whinge.

 

But the rules were still changed to make it less visually offensive for the following season. Sometimes, F1 teams need saving from themselves. 

[IrvTheSwerve]

I don’t think people are bothered by the ‘look’ of carbon fibre. Just that all teams have large parts of their cars that look identical.

[SophieB]

Then we can make it like a school sports day. A red team, a yellow team, a green team, a blue team, etc. And the drivers and pit crew can wear coloured bibs.

Why does anyone go to nice restaurants when they could just eat the required calories from petrol station forecourt shops?
Why do I buy drinks when I could just drink water from the toilet?
Or in other words, I think just because something works on a utilitarian level, it doesn’t make the aesthetic levels redundant or pointless. I’m not even about F1 for the cars but even I recognise that having a grid of beautiful looking cars is going to be better for the sport than this mess which looks a) cheap and b) potentially hard to differentiate

[PayasYouRace]

By the same logic, you can say that the 2014 noses weren't a problem either, and it was just people having a whinge.

But the rules were still changed to make it less visually offensive for the following season. Sometimes, F1 teams need saving from themselves.

Regarding the 2014 nose rules, they did produce some ugly machines, also some pretty and some interesting ones, but I never saw it as much of a problem other than they were the result of an overly prescriptive set of rules when a simple rule would have done the job.

Exactly what I’m protesting here. I don’t agree with people asking for more rules. Especially when it’s something self regulating. The teams’ brands are important to them. It doesn’t benefit them to be confused with another team, so they don’t need extra rules to make their cars look distinctive and recognisable.

Also, don’t remember the rules being changed for 2015. I remember the rules for 2013 being changes because of the step noses, which were also a consequence of badly written rules.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Why does anyone go to nice restaurants when they could just eat the required calories from petrol station forecourt shops?
Why do I buy drinks when I could just drink water from the toilet?
Or in other words, I think just because something works on a utilitarian level, it doesn’t make the aesthetic levels redundant or pointless. I’m not even about F1 for the cars but even I recognise that having a grid of beautiful looking cars is going to be better for the sport than this mess which looks a) cheap and b) potentially hard to differentiate

Are you saying there’s something weird about my diet of toilet water and sherbet lemons? 

[PayasYouRace]

Why does anyone go to nice restaurants when they could just eat the required calories from petrol station forecourt shops?
Why do I buy drinks when I could just drink water from the toilet?
Or in other words, I think just because something works on a utilitarian level, it doesn’t make the aesthetic levels redundant or pointless. I’m not even about F1 for the cars but even I recognise that having a grid of beautiful looking cars is going to be better for the sport than this mess which looks a) cheap and b) potentially hard to differentiate

I was just making a joke at the idea that mandating pint will just have the teams use the same colour.

See my point about how it’s in the teams’ interest to look distinctive and recognisable, and professional.

[SophieB]

I was just making a joke at the idea that mandating pint will just have the teams use the same colour.

See my point about how it’s in the teams’ interest to look distinctive and recognisable, and professional.

I got you, I was just making the point it works in the other direction too.

I don’t really share your optimism in the teams’ common sense about recognising the value of aesthetics independently. F1 teams are historically *terrible* in situations where teams think someone could steal a march by not going along with the common good. Otherwise, wouldn’t they have already done it? The cars look bad. They must have already known it yet they pressed on anyway?

[JHSingo]

It’s a general trend. I’ve never seen the Silver Arrows criticised as being unfinished or cheap, from any motorsport fan. I’ve always seen it described as iconic. But I guess it’s fine if you see them that way, and it would be a first for me to see someone say that.

 

I guess that's because at that time in history, it was something that hadn't been seen before? Unless a motorsport historian can correct me, I don't believe any other team was using silver? Naturally when a team is the first to do something, and it becomes associated with success, it'll become iconic.

 

But it's perhaps also because silver is a more visually striking colour than the dull black of unpainted carbon. In my opinion, the Mercs have always stood out more visually when they've been silver than black - even if it did start to get a bit boring seeing largely the same livery year after year.

 

Even so, I imagine in some alternate universe where unpainted carbon is silver rather than dull black, we'd still be complaining about so many of the cars looking so similar to each other. 

[PayasYouRace]

I got you, I was just making the point it works in the other direction too.
I don’t really share your optimism in the teams’ common sense about recognising the value of aesthetics independently. F1 teams are historically *terrible* in situations where teams think someone could steal a march by not going along with the common good. Otherwise, wouldn’t they have already done it? The cars look bad. They must have already known it yet they pressed on anyway?

Do they look bad though? Thats really down to personal taste.

I’ve made three negative comments on the liveries this year.

- The green stripe on the Sauber looks awkward but overall I like the livery.
- The Toro Rosso looks too much a Toro Rosso than a Visa CashApp rebranding of the team, but that’s not really a bad thing because it looks great.
- The yellow and white stripes on the Ferrari make me think of Brazzers.

I don’t think I’m going to have particular trouble telling the cars apart this year. If I could earn to tell the difference between a Tyrrell and a Benetton as a 9 year old in 1996, I can manage with this year’s lot.

[SophieB]

Do they look bad though? Thats really down to personal taste.

I’ve made three negative comments on the liveries this year.

- The green stripe on the Sauber looks awkward but overall I like the livery.
- The Toro Rosso looks too much a Toro Rosso than a Visa CashApp rebranding of the team, but that’s not really a bad thing because it looks great.
- The yellow and white stripes on the Ferrari make me think of Brazzers.

I don’t think I’m going to have particular trouble telling the cars apart this year. If I could earn to tell the difference between a Tyrrell and a Benetton as a 9 year old in 1996, I can manage with this year’s lot.

The aesthetics thing will probably always be personal, then in which case I see even less grounds for optimism that the teams will collectively do the right thing and make beautiful looking liveries. As to the tell them apart thing, then maybe it’s just me? I spent a lot of time mixing up Aston Martins and Mercedes last year and am not relishing the idea of having to keep track of similar situations with more teams.

[PayasYouRace]

The aesthetics thing will probably always be personal, then in which case I see even less grounds for optimism that the teams will collectively do the right thing and make beautiful looking liveries. As to the tell them apart thing, then maybe it’s just me? I spent a lot of time mixing up Aston Martins and Mercedes last year and am not relishing the idea of having to keep track of similar situations with more teams.

Aston Martin and Mercedes were the most easily confused last year, but thankfully this year Mercedes have gone for black and silver which makes it more distinctive.

The only problem I’m seeing this year will be Alpine when they’re running their blue version, and Williams. The other teams all have unique colours.

But I didn’t say they are incentivised to make “beautiful” liveries. I said they’re incentivised to be distinctive and speaking to their brand. Beauty, in the eye of the beholder as always, can never be regulated or enforced.

[Beri]

It hasn't got anything to do with regulating beauty. It is about regulating color usage for an X percentage which is now being thrown into the field as an option that needs to be explored.
I can't say I agree. Because all cars will be distinctive enough to tell apart. I'll bet you a tenner on that one.

[Secretariat]

Generally, I don't mind the current aesthetics. Just as in the period of funky noses and front end shapes, I think it was a confluence of the regulations and performance. It is the same here. As the teams find further advances in weight reduction, more pretty liveries will return because the current locations of the paint are higher up on the chassis. Therefore it has a negative impact on the car's center of gravity.

[pdac]

They’d need something worth a lot more than a handful of tenths a lap to make a noticeable difference if they want to slow the cars down.

 

Of course. But as the advertising for a popular UK grocery chain goes ... "every little helps" (or is it "I've got the power"?)

[pdac]

And what if they all decide they want to paint the car black?

 

Simple solution .. teams must submit a request to the FIA stating which TWO colours they want to use (in addition to black and white). Assuming the FIA has no objections, then they can only use those colours. If the FIA refuses permission, they must think again and agree two colours with the FIA or else the FIA will assign two colours to them.

[B Squared]

I remember the days when the basic thought was it didn't matter if your car looked like a s*** box as long as it was fast. That has always been the main criteria of racing

[Montie]

I truly miss the Jordan colors of 1998-2001. They really stood out.

[Rediscoveryx]

It’s a general trend. I’ve never seen the Silver Arrows criticised as being unfinished or cheap, from any motorsport fan.

That’s peobably because it wasn’t the case that 75% of the grid ditched the paint job back then.

[Rediscoveryx]

And what if they all decide they want to paint the car black?

There’s no performance advantage in picking one colour ahead of another. Based on historical livery variation it seems unlikely that all teams will end up with highly similar liveries unless there is a performance advantage to be gained from it.

[AncientLurker]

I remember the days when the basic thought was it didn't matter if your car looked like a s*** box as long as it was fast. That has always been the main criteria of racing

Are we talking the car or the livery?

 

I love crazy looking cars of the past with wild solutions that may or may not have worked. The crazy rigs people rolled out in May at the Speedway, the 'tea kettle', the 6-wheeler, and the fan car. I loved the the pre-wing cars in all their different iterations. I liked the late 60s high wing absurdity. Even as recently as the wacky X-wings and front wings were interesting to see. Even with simple colours and a terrible livery they would look distinct and love them or hate them they were recognizable.

 

Now, the cars are so similar the livery is how you tell them apart. I've given up a long time ago following the minor differences in the cars, so from that aspect I am your 'average' viewer, but with 35+ years of following. I can only tell cars apart by livery, and it gets harder each year.

[PayasYouRace]

That’s peobably because it wasn’t the case that 75% of the grid ditched the paint job back then.

In fairness, the silver arrows probably did account for 75% of the grid, for most of their existence.

[noikeee]

I'm on the side of regulate this because all cars being black is getting a bit silly. And I like black cars, I just want them to be a bit more distinctive.

[Burai]

Looking at the cars this morning, I think the worries were a tad unfounded. If you're struggling to tell the McLaren and Sauber apart, you might need to see an optician.

 

Ironically, the only cars I'm struggling to tell apart from a distance, are the Alpine and Williams and they aren't even the same colour. 

[PayasYouRace]

That’s what I predicted upthread, that Williams and Alpine were the only ones giving me expectations of confusion.

[RacingFan10]

And what if they all decide they want to paint the car black?

 

Put black paint on it. I thought anyone could figure it out alone.