Jump to content


Photo

Olivier Gendebien's Ferrari 156


  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#1 FlyingSaucer

FlyingSaucer
  • Member

  • 72 posts
  • Joined: July 23

Posted 15 February 2024 - 14:54

Something that has always intrigued me. When Gendebien drove the yellow Ferrari 156 #8 in the 1961 Belgian GP, ​​was the car entered by Scuderia Ferrari or by the Ecurie Nationale Belge?
 
I was always confused by the case, as certain sources say that it was the Scuderia that entered the car in the race, while others claim that the car was ceded to the Belgians solely for this specific event, as happened other times in the relationship between the Belgians and Italians.
 
Can anyone give me 100% certainty of who was the 'real' owner of the car during the 1961 Belgian GP???
 
 
 
I know this question seems like something from the Nostalgia Forum of 20 years ago, but I think it's still a valid question kkkkkkkkk

Edited by FlyingSaucer, 15 February 2024 - 14:55.


Advertisement

#2 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 5,045 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 15 February 2024 - 16:12

Can't give 100% certainty, but DSJ reported "Scuderia Ferrari as we know them, had the same three cars as they used at Zandvoort, all with 120 degree V6 engines, and they had painted an older 60 degree V6 car yellow and lent it to the ENB for Gendebien to drive, though the Maranello mechanics were looking after it."

 

https://www.motorspo...dprixofbelgium/

 



#3 cooper997

cooper997
  • Member

  • 3,871 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 15 February 2024 - 16:45

Sourced from the programme, although doesn't t answer the ownership issue.

 

 

June 18, 1961 Belgian GP – Spa Franchorchamps.

SEFAC Ferrari              2          W Von Trips    Ferrari

SEFAC Ferrari              4          P Hill                Ferrari

Equipe Nationale Belge 8         O Gendebien   Ferrari

Equipe Nationale Belge 10       W Mairesse      Emeryson

Equipe Nationale Belge 12       L Bianchi          Emeryson

 

Concurrents devant se Qualifier:

SEFAC Ferrari               6        R Ginther          Ferrari

 

 

In the Stanley 'Grand Prix' annual it states in a Maranello related section "...A fourth had been lent to Equipe National Belge for the Belgian driver, Olivier Gendebien."

 

 

Stephen


Edited by cooper997, 15 February 2024 - 17:06.


#4 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,506 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 15 February 2024 - 18:02

According to the F1Register, Gendebien's car was number 0002 and was raced at Monaco by von Trips, at the Nurburgring by Mairesse (both had 60 degree engines) and at Monza by Phil Hill.  The last seems unlikely,   It seems far more likely that Rodriguez drove it,, that and Mairesse being the only occasions that the works team entered a 60degree car after Spa - not counting Baghetti's distinctive car.



#5 FlyingSaucer

FlyingSaucer
  • Member

  • 72 posts
  • Joined: July 23

Posted 15 February 2024 - 18:02

Sourced from the programme, although doesn't t answer the ownership issue.

 

 

June 18, 1961 Belgian GP – Spa Franchorchamps.

SEFAC Ferrari              2          W Von Trips    Ferrari

SEFAC Ferrari              4          P Hill                Ferrari

Equipe Nationale Belge 8         O Gendebien   Ferrari

Equipe Nationale Belge 10       W Mairesse      Emeryson

Equipe Nationale Belge 12       L Bianchi          Emeryson

 

Concurrents devant se Qualifier:

SEFAC Ferrari               6        R Ginther          Ferrari

 

 

In the Stanley 'Grand Prix' annual it states in a Maranello related section "...A fourth had been lent to Equipe National Belge for the Belgian driver, Olivier Gendebien."

 

 

Stephen

 

Well, if it's written in one of Stanley's books, I trust it. They are some of the best sources about the F1 in the 60's, especially regarding the reports of the training sessions and the races.
 
I had forgotten to consult the 1961 edition - especially with a free copy available, which can be accessed via the Internet Archive.
 
Thanks for reminding me of that  :yawnface:


#6 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,531 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 15 February 2024 - 19:22

Regardless of what number might have been stamped into its chassis frame, as I recall it Gendebien's Ferrari 'Sharknose' was the deep-chested one - see contemporary photography - which first appeared as the FISA entry in which Baghetti had won at Syracuse and Naples early in that 1961 season.

 

The Belgian GP entry under the Equipe National Belge banner and the car's respray in patriotic Belgian yellow was authorised by Mr Ferrari as a nod of approval to Brussels-based concessionaire Jacques Swaters and his sometime team co-principal/sometime adversary Pierre Stasse.  

 

Jacques had of course been customer/owner/driver of one of the Ferrari 500 'Starlet' Formula 2 cars in 1952-53.  He had won the 1953 AVUSRennen in Berlin driving that car - and The Old Man recognised Swaters as a hard-nosed and entrepreneurial real racer from the same mould as himself.  

 

Jacques once told me how he, of all the Ferrari concessionaires, would do his deal for the coming year over the kitchen table in The Old Man's apartment, or house, with Lina Lardi fixing the pasta and (early on) little Piero crawling around the floor playing with his toy cars.

 

This was in contrast to moneyed arriviste Swiss Georges Filipinetti and elegant English military gent Ronnie Hoare striking their new year's deals at an up-market luncheon or dinner "in town".  Luigi Chinetti, who had known Ferrari since they were both employed by Alfa Romeo in the earliest 1920s, was the only other concessionaire to share (and exceed) such acceptance by 'Il Drake' - and such intimate hospitality.

 

DCN



#7 DCapps

DCapps
  • Member

  • 877 posts
  • Joined: August 16

Posted 16 February 2024 - 01:07

It occurs to me that the very notion of how cars might be entered in the Ancient Days of the Universe, such as the Fifties and Sixties of the 20th century for instance, might seem a bit to people these days...

 

The various entries made by the Office Alfieri Maserati in the Fifties would probably cause mind to melt today, not that they were all that easy to sort out at the time in some cases...

 

I think that the recent Huon Ferrari book touches on instances such the ENB entry for Gendebien at Spa 1961.



#8 cooper997

cooper997
  • Member

  • 3,871 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 16 February 2024 - 08:52

Motor Racing Year 1961 (Blunsden & Brinton) show this photo.

 

1961-Motor-Racing-Year-Gendebien-Ferrari

 

 

Stephen



#9 RCH

RCH
  • Member

  • 1,140 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 16 February 2024 - 11:12

Related to this topic and maybe complete nonsense but something I seem to remember reading many years ago.

Ferrari resented having to run a car for Baghetti and was looking for excuses not to do so. He claimed to have to run an extra car for a national of as many GPs as he could and therefore could not spare a car for Baghetti. He was proposing to enter a blue car at Reims for Trintignant. 



#10 Jahn1234567890

Jahn1234567890
  • Member

  • 166 posts
  • Joined: January 19

Posted 16 February 2024 - 12:29

I don't want to off topic too much but I would like to make a general comment regarding entries.

While entry list in general are very useful. I use it for my research all the time, but I would never blindly trust the information listed in an entry list / program.

The entry list basically just shows the information a driver / entrant filled in in their entry form. Over multiple events this information is not necessarily filled in the same way and or by the same person.

Some entry list are very detailed while other only shows the basics. I guess what I am trying to say is an entry list never tells the complete story regarding an entrant or the owner of said car.

 

An example: Plenty of sources will tell you Franco Rol's and Louis Chiron's Maserati's in 1950 where entered by the Officine. while this is not entirely wrong it is a gross oversimplification.

Both Rol and Chiron had acquired a 4CLT from the Officine in 1949. Rol's car was delivered on the 8th of September while Chiron's car was ready on the 21st of September.

For 1950 both Rol and Chiron entered an agreement with the Officine. While they still owned their car, it would receive assistance and have their car looked after by the factory.

This in fact was not an uncommon thing for the Officine and Rol's and Chiron's entries where no more than de facto works entries.


Edited by Jahn1234567890, 16 February 2024 - 12:52.


#11 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 7,178 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 16 February 2024 - 12:44

I don't want to off topic too much but I would like to make a general comment regarding entries.

While entry list in general are very useful. I use it for my research all the time, but I would never blindly trust the information listed in an entry list / program.

The entry list basically just shows the information a driver / entrant filled in in their entry form. Over multiple events this information is not necessarily filled in the same way and or by the same person.

Some entry list are very detailed while other only shows the basics. I guess what I am trying to say is an entry list never tells the complete story regarding an entrant or the owner of said car.

 

An example: Plenty of sources will tell you Franco Rol's and Louis Chiron's Maserati's in 1950 where entered by the Officine. while this is not entirely wrong it is a gross oversimplification.

Both Rol and Chiron had acquired a 4CT from the Officine in 1949. Rol's car was delivered on the 8th of September while Chiron's car was ready on the 21st of September.

For 1950 both Rol and Chiron entered an agreement with the Officine. While they still owned their car, it would receive assistance and have their car looked after by the factory.

This in fact was not an uncommon thing for the Officine and Rol's and Chiron's entries where no more than de facto works entries.

 

Like



#12 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,702 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 16 February 2024 - 13:54

I think that some race organisers - particularly of the Italian GP - required, or maybe preferred, all entries to be "factory" entries. For example we have Stirling Moss in the Cooper-Alta special being described as a Cooper Car Company entry for the Monza race.  Often owners of private Maseratis appear to be listed as entered by the factory and not necessarily the top drivers who you could expect might attract works backing.  Did they perhaps get more starting money if listed as "works" entries?  Or did they perhaps pay Maserati to make a block entry on their behalf as part of the preparation and support deal?


Edited by D-Type, 16 February 2024 - 15:46.


#13 DCapps

DCapps
  • Member

  • 877 posts
  • Joined: August 16

Posted 16 February 2024 - 14:25

As ever: The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there. L.P. Hartley, The Go-Between (1953)



#14 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,960 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 February 2024 - 16:12

I think that some race organisers - particularly of the Italian GP - required, or maybe preferred, all entries to be "factory" entries. For example we have Stirling Moss in the Cooper-Alta special being described as a Cooper Car Company entry for the Monza race.  Often owners of private Maseratis appear to be listed as entered by the factory and not necessarily the top drivers who you could expect might attract works backing.  Did they perhaps get more starting money if listed as "works" entries?  Or did they perhaps pay Maserati to make a block entry on their behalf as part of the preparation and support deal?

The Belgians were quite restrictive before and after the war, which obviously led to many private cars being disguised as factory entries, sometimes also with exceptions for 'locals'. The French decided from time to time. For the Italians and the British I have the impression, that they followed a more generous entry policy.



#15 Jack-the-Lad

Jack-the-Lad
  • Member

  • 2,466 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 16 February 2024 - 16:20

Discussing Ferrari’s multiple entries in 1961 GPs always reminds me, aggravatingly, of  his refusal to send even a single car to the USGP.  Phil Hill earned and deserved the opportunity to celebrate his world championship in his home country.  


Edited by Jack-the-Lad, 16 February 2024 - 17:34.


#16 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 5,045 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 16 February 2024 - 18:04

I think that some race organisers - particularly of the Italian GP - required, or maybe preferred, all entries to be "factory" entries. For example we have Stirling Moss in the Cooper-Alta special being described as a Cooper Car Company entry for the Monza race.  Often owners of private Maseratis appear to be listed as entered by the factory and not necessarily the top drivers who you could expect might attract works backing.  Did they perhaps get more starting money if listed as "works" entries?  Or did they perhaps pay Maserati to make a block entry on their behalf as part of the preparation and support deal?

I seem to remember reading (not a definitive source, I know!) that some organisers were reluctant to accept private entries from lesser known drivers, so Maserati entered them. That's broadly consistent with the points you make.


Edited by Sterzo, 16 February 2024 - 19:46.


#17 Tom Glowacki

Tom Glowacki
  • Member

  • 525 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 16 February 2024 - 21:38

For whatever it is worth, I have two color pictures of Gendebein's car sitting in a garage with the Ferrari team cars.  If someone else cares to post them, let me know and I'll send them over.



#18 Jack-the-Lad

Jack-the-Lad
  • Member

  • 2,466 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 17 February 2024 - 04:52

I’m going to guess must have been a factory car (regardless of entrant).  I base this on the probability that it would have survived if it were Swaters’s property, as it’s been established that all of the 156s were destroyed or left to decompose by the factory. 



#19 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,506 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 17 February 2024 - 06:17

Motor Racing Year 1961 (Blunsden & Brinton) show this photo.

1961-Motor-Racing-Year-Gendebien-Ferrari


Stephen

Does that look like Baghetti's Syracuse car?

Advertisement

#20 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,702 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 17 February 2024 - 13:34

It doesn't have the extra openings in the bonnet that Baghetti had at Syracuse.
I think the car that Ferrari reluctantly lent to FISA or Scuderia Sant Ambroeus for Baghetti was the prototype rear-engined car that had originally raced with a 2.4 litre engine.  It's feasible, if the timescale fits, that it was the Syracuse car that he lent to ENB, but I think Ferrari had more than one of the 65 degree engined cars available.



#21 rudi

rudi
  • Member

  • 345 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 17 February 2024 - 17:08

The Gendebien car was chassis 002, previously driven at Monaco by von Trips.

According to Gendebien in his book, the deal for his drive at Spa was between the RACB (Royal Automobile Club de Belgique) and Ferrari.

Gendebien was supposed to drive one of the ENB Emerysons at Spa. This explains the ENB entry for the Gendebien Ferrari. Of course the Gendebien Ferrari was part of the Ferrari team, the ENB staff having enough work with the Emerysons...



#22 cooper997

cooper997
  • Member

  • 3,871 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 17 February 2024 - 22:15

Again from the Belgian GP pages, 1961 Motor Racing Year (Blunsden & Brinton).

 

 

SEFAC preparation at Stavelot

1961-Motor-Racing-Year-Ferrari-TNF.jpg

 

 

Stephen



#23 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,506 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 18 February 2024 - 11:40

Enzo Ferrari must have been well disposed towards lending a car for Gendebien following his wins at Sebring, the Targa Florio and, for the third time, Le Mans.



#24 Odseybod

Odseybod
  • Member

  • 1,801 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 18 February 2024 - 12:09

A bit of a cheat, from the 2010 Goodwood Revival. Jim Stokes Workshop (who created this replica 156) told me they could only achieve the right shade of Belgian yellow by spraying the car red first - going straight from primer to yellow apparently resulted in too bright a shade.

 

TT-2010-Revival-Yellow-sharknose.jpg

 

 



#25 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,702 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 18 February 2024 - 13:42

 

Something that has always intrigued me. When Gendebien drove the yellow Ferrari 156 #8 in the 1961 Belgian GP, ​​was the car entered by Scuderia Ferrari or by the Ecurie Nationale Belge?
 
I was always confused by the case, as certain sources say that it was the Scuderia that entered the car in the race, while others claim that the car was ceded to the Belgians solely for this specific event, as happened other times in the relationship between the Belgians and Italians.
 
Can anyone give me 100% certainty of who was the 'real' owner of the car during the 1961 Belgian GP???
 
 

 

 

The Gendebien car was chassis 002, previously driven at Monaco by von Trips.

According to Gendebien in his book, the deal for his drive at Spa was between the RACB (Royal Automobile Club de Belgique) and Ferrari.

Gendebien was supposed to drive one of the ENB Emerysons at Spa. This explains the ENB entry for the Gendebien Ferrari. Of course the Gendebien Ferrari was part of the Ferrari team, the ENB staff having enough work with the Emerysons...

 At last!  The answer to the question posed.


Edited by D-Type, 18 February 2024 - 13:42.


#26 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,531 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 18 February 2024 - 21:21

It's now 45 years since I produced my 'Dino - The Little Ferrari' book in which I included the 1961 'Sharknose' cars.  Much more recently I was involved with the Jim Stokes Workshop replica of 'the yellow car'.  I vividly recall some discussion then about 'the deep chested' look of the Gendebien mount at Spa resembling Baghetti's Syracuse and Naples 156.

 

Now, instead of relying upon deceptive memory and having actually checked my sources from 1979, I see that the Baghetti FISA chassis was indeed listed as being the 1960-originated MP prototype, which took chassis serial '0008' because they worked forward from the pre-existing front-engined V6 number series which had reached '0007' in Phil Hill's 1960 Italian GP-winning frame, the one which passed on with a V12 installed to Pat Hoare in New Zealand and then to Neil Corner here in England.  

 

In the 'Dino' book I did list the Gendebien '61 Belgian GP chassis as being '0002' and in presenting that information lay a tale.

 

While researching that book I wrote - remember posted letters? - to Ferrari politely seeking assistance in verifying individual car identities for the entire V6 and V8 'Dino' racing car series from 1957.  

 

A couple of weeks later a Ferrari-lettered envelope dropped onto our doormat, the missive within laying into me for having been so 'rude' as to ask! The letter informed me that the factory files were confidential and I should not bother them again.  That letter was signed by a new press officer, who had taken over those duties in effect from Franco Gozzi, Mr Ferrari's longtime PA.  I had always got on pretty well with Gozzi, so I wrote to him expressing my disappointment - apologising if my question had seemed to be 'rudely expressed' - while emphasising that all I was trying to do was to get the story straight for a forthcoming book on the Dino bloodline... 

 

Another week or so passed before Gozzi's response arrived; this time in a larger envelope.  

 

He wrote that it was the house of Ferrari that owed me an apology, he considered that I had been "badly treated" and enclosed an extensive list of all relevant events including hand-written chassis serials for the cars competing.  I guess a minion in the archives had been tasked to do that.  The new press chap - who I heard subsequently had upset several other far better established and significant press people than I - was moved elsewhere. In effect his OTT reaction had ended up very much in my favour.  So Jellybean's '61 Belgian GP 'Sharknose' was indeed '0002', as the Ecurie Francorchamps book - published years later and working from Jacques Swaters' records - also confirms.

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 18 February 2024 - 21:26.


#27 cooper997

cooper997
  • Member

  • 3,871 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 19 February 2024 - 00:09

Posting on behalf of Tom Glowacki, as referenced in post 17.

 

Obviously taken in the same workshop as shown in post 22

 

Ferrari-Spagarage-01-TNF.jpg

 

Ferrari-Spagarage-02-TNF.jpg

 

 

Stephen


Edited by cooper997, 19 February 2024 - 05:20.


#28 FlyingSaucer

FlyingSaucer
  • Member

  • 72 posts
  • Joined: July 23

Posted 20 February 2024 - 00:32

Another question regarding one-off Scuderia Ferrari entries in other colors than red.

 

When Ferrari cars raced in other colors (like the case of Gendebien in 1961 or NART in 1964), did Ferrari and the mechanics simply paint over the red or did they sand the bodywork and then painted the car again?
 
This question came to mind after making a parallel with what we see today in F1 in relation to minimalist paintings and weight reduction.


#29 cooper997

cooper997
  • Member

  • 3,871 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 25 February 2024 - 04:36

From the pages of Automobile Year #9

 

Automobile-Year-9-Belgian-GP-01-TNF.jpg

 

Automobile-Year-9-Belgian-GP-02-TNF.jpg

 

 

Stephen



#30 68targa

68targa
  • Member

  • 1,142 posts
  • Joined: October 19

Posted 25 February 2024 - 08:30

 

Another question regarding one-off Scuderia Ferrari entries in other colors than red.

 

I can only recall two other occasions when a works entered Ferrari was painted anything but  predominatly red.

 

1956 - Yellow for  Andre Pillete in a D50 at Spa.

1964 - White and blue at the tail end of the season, although entered by NART these were works entries.



#31 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,937 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 25 February 2024 - 10:00

 

Another question regarding one-off Scuderia Ferrari entries in other colors than red.

 

When Ferrari cars raced in other colors (like the case of Gendebien in 1961 or NART in 1964), did Ferrari and the mechanics simply paint over the red or did they sand the bodywork and then painted the car again?
 
This question came to mind after making a parallel with what we see today in F1 in relation to minimalist paintings and weight reduction.

 

No idea, but I note that DSJ's race report for Spa refers to the car (along with Bianchi's Lotus also entered by ENB) being "quickly distempered in.... yellow".    I doubt if they actually used emulsion paint though...

 

I can only recall two other occasions when a works entered Ferrari was painted anything but  predominantly red.

 

1956 - Yellow for  Andre Pillete in a D50 at Spa.

1964 - White and blue at the tail end of the season, although entered by NART these were works entries.

Wasn't Stirling's Ferrari for 1962 to have been liveried in green? I wonder if the car had been painted already prior to Moss's Goodwood crash?



#32 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,506 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 25 February 2024 - 10:09

Phil Hill had a blue and white car for the 1959 USGP; Hawthorn had a green one at the 1953 Argentine GP. 



#33 Collombin

Collombin
  • Member

  • 8,643 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 25 February 2024 - 10:58

Wasn't Stirling's Ferrari for 1962 to have been liveried in green?


Rob Walker blue I think.

#34 d j fox

d j fox
  • Member

  • 303 posts
  • Joined: November 05

Posted 25 February 2024 - 12:15

Then there was also the one off UDT Laystall entered 151 that Innes Ireland drove at the 62 International Trophy.
Ferrari red with a BRP bilious green stripe and tartan strip on the nose.
At the time it was said to have been loaned as a tribute to Stirling Moss but I may be way wrong
I wonder if this was possibly the car that was intended for Rob Walker?

#35 Macca

Macca
  • Member

  • 3,726 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 25 February 2024 - 13:31

And Gendebien in 1958

IMG-0538.jpg

Paul M

Edited by Macca, 25 February 2024 - 13:33.


#36 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 5,045 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 25 February 2024 - 13:43

No idea, but I note that DSJ's race report for Spa refers to the car (along with Bianchi's Lotus also entered by ENB) being "quickly distempered in.... yellow".    I doubt if they actually used emulsion paint though...

DSJ was probably tongue-in-cheek, but would remember the 1954 British GP, when officals decreed that Moss's Maserati had to be green, not red, as the entrant was British. The only green paint they could find in time was distemper intended for house walls. It didn't cover the red properly, resulting in a disgusting sea-green.


Edited by Sterzo, 25 February 2024 - 13:47.


#37 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,702 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 25 February 2024 - 23:41

I vaguely remember a story about one of the Centro-Sud Maseratis being rapidly repainted with distemper but I can't recall why or when.  I do remember a DSJ comment saying it was lucky it didn't rain.

Then there was Le Mans 1952.  Maurice Gatsonides had no car so he borrowed a Jowett Jupiter.  It was green and the organisers insisted it be orange.  They scoured Le Mans for orange paint and the only orange paint they could find was some sort of house paint, probably emulsion.  Anyway it had a matt finish so the Jowett Jupiter "team" comprised a French entry in shiny French blue , the works entry in shiny BRG and Gatsonides'  matt orange car.



#38 FlyingSaucer

FlyingSaucer
  • Member

  • 72 posts
  • Joined: July 23

Posted 27 February 2024 - 01:07

Then there was also the one off UDT Laystall entered 151 that Innes Ireland drove at the 62 International Trophy.
Ferrari red with a BRP bilious green stripe and tartan strip on the nose.
At the time it was said to have been loaned as a tribute to Stirling Moss but I may be way wrong
I wonder if this was possibly the car that was intended for Rob Walker?

 

It was never Ferrari's intention to sell a 156 to Rob Walker. Regarding specifically this subject, there are 2 possible hypotheses for the car to have been loaned to BRP/UDT-Laystall at that time, none of which has been proven (as far as I know).

 

Hypothesis A: as everyone knowns, most of the non-championship races that took place before the start of the season in the early 60s were held in England (such as the Lombank Trophy, the Lavant Cup, the Glover Trophy and the AIntree 200) and Ferrari, historically, never competed in these events. However, the 1962 season promised to pocess a great challenge for Ferrari, as the car had no major modifications compared to the 1961 model, while its rivals brought completely new packages to the championship. Because of this, the Scuderia wanted to see if the car would really remain competitive in race scenarios, and the only place they could do that before the season start was, obviously, in the GB. To continue with its status-quo, Ferrari decided to make an agreement with BRP, through Ronnie Hoare, the Ferrari UK distributor and one of the members of Maranello Concessionaires.

 
Hypothesis B: it was well known that at the time that one of the Commendatore's dreams was to have the services of Stirling Moss, as one of the Ferrari works drivers. So, what better to lure a driver to your team, than offering him the opportunity to race the car that was, at the time, considered the best on the grid? And on Moss side, he really wanted to see if the Ferrari 156 would be a good car for 1962, as he could choose between either staying on Rob Walker or moving on to Ferrari in the near future, depending on how much the car impressed him. The problem is that Moss's accident in April basically ended that dream overnight - however, the agreement between BRP and Ferrari had already been signed, and it was basically obligated to come to fruition.
 
The only sure we can have is that, although Innes Ireland was an extremely capable pilot, we cannot deny that he was certainly in the right place at the right time to receive the opportunity to drive in the 1962 BDRC International Trophy.  :drunk:

Edited by FlyingSaucer, 27 February 2024 - 01:08.


#39 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,531 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 27 February 2024 - 07:17

"Hypothesis A: as everyone knowns, most of the non-championship races that took place before the start of the season in the early 60s were held in England (such as the Lombank Trophy, the Lavant Cup, the Glover Trophy and the AIntree 200) and Ferrari, historically, never competed in these events."

 

I seem to recall Jean Behra and Tony Brooks finishing first and second in the 1959 Aintree '200' - driving red works cars - and before that Fangio and Peter Collins running a couple of red works cars in the BRDC International Trophy at Silverstone, etc...

 

Moss was really eager to have a 'Sharknose' or the next iteration at least available for his use into 1962 - and Mr Ferrari was really eager to secure his services (i.e. to deny them to an opposing marque) after years in which Stirl had felt real enmity towards The Old Man and his Italian team.  His dad's BRP links - Walker's support - and what Moss himself felt (at the conclusion of 1961) was a pressing need brought this deal about.  The unknown at the time was just how competitive the new generation of V8 engines from Climax and BRM might prove to be.  And the combination of such power units in sophisticated new-generation chassis for 1962 more or less just blew Ferrari away.

 

DCN



Advertisement

#40 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,506 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 27 February 2024 - 07:45

Not to mention Hawthorn at Goodwood, Collins at Silverstone in 1958, Hill and Allison at Silverstone in 1960.  As usual starting money probably had a large impact on whether a car was sent. In 1962 Mairesse won at Brussels in a 65 degree car. 
 

Although the 1962 Sharknose were little changed they had planned a 4-valve engine and a revised chassis with gearbox ahead of the rear wheels. Neither worked and probably wouldn’t have been enough to beat a 25 or 578 but Ferrari didn’t intend to race with no changes. 



#41 FlyingSaucer

FlyingSaucer
  • Member

  • 72 posts
  • Joined: July 23

Posted 27 February 2024 - 12:40

Not to mention Hawthorn at Goodwood, Collins at Silverstone in 1958, Hill and Allison at Silverstone in 1960.  As usual starting money probably had a large impact on whether a car was sent.

 

 

I seem to recall Jean Behra and Tony Brooks finishing first and second in the 1959 Aintree '200' - driving red works cars - and before that Fangio and Peter Collins running a couple of red works cars in the BRDC International Trophy at Silverstone, etc...

 

 

DCN

 

Sry, I have to admit that I expressed myself badly.
 
"Never" was too strong a word. In my post, the meaning of this sentence only portrays the period of 1960-62.
 
Anyway, the only exceptions in this case are the 1962 BDRC International Trophy itself and the 1960 edition of the same trophy, as you guys said. If we take into account that these were only 2 of the 12 pre-season races held in England during the 1960-1962 period, it is an almost negligible number. Plus, if we add the I Oulton Park Trophy, XI Lavant Cup and the BARC '200' of 1960, which featured F1 cars (even though they were, theoretically, F2 events), this number rises to 15. So, we would have something around 13.3% of Ferrari participation in English pre-season events between 60-62.


#42 Victor

Victor
  • Member

  • 1,006 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 03 March 2024 - 18:57

For whatever it is worth, I have two color pictures of Gendebein's car sitting in a garage with the Ferrari team cars.  If someone else cares to post them, let me know and I'll send them over.

https://i.postimg.cc...j/gendebien.jpg



#43 Pieter

Pieter
  • Member

  • 114 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 04 March 2024 - 19:47

Does 'Belgian yellow' differ from 'Modena yellow', the colors of city? Its local FC is called I Canarini (The Canaries).



#44 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,531 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 04 March 2024 - 21:30

Yes - Belgian yellow has tended to be depicted as a deeper, richer tone than the more daffodil yellow most often depicted in connection with Modena.  In any case I am pretty sure that the Modenese connection played very little part in the decision to repaint the Gendebien Spa car 'yellow'.

 

DCN