1146 replies to this topic

[Leatherface]

The problem is, she can't have any meaningful conversation. If she is there for the causals, why have her apart of the testing broadcast, only the die hards watch it. Why the hell was Karun not there for example, he is an F1 encyclopaedia.

Is he though, I often find myself questioning statements he says.

[lewislorenzo]

Russell over 2 tenths faster than Hamilton on the same tyre?

The track is quicker in the night and more rubbered in now too🙄can’t compare at all

Edited by lewislorenzo, 23 February 2024 - 17:07.

[Leatherface]

The track is quicker in the night and more rubbered in now too🙄can’t compare at all

Hamilton ran yesterday evening, I'm comparing those runs.

Edited by Leatherface, 23 February 2024 - 17:08.

[chrcol]

I'm not watching Sky, but Rachel doesn't know what sims are?

 

BTW, Sky Germany doesn't tell anything about race sims either. Quite sad that we have to look up those numbers ourselves.

The mainstream media are all about fastest laps, thats why I am often on here asking about long runs.

 

They either just dumb or deliberately not talking about it.

[Blazt]

So only Ferrari and Mclaren did race sim with live pitstops.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

So only Ferrari and Mclaren did race sim with live pitstops.

It seems that way, Ferrari got two of them with both their drivers, I know McLaren did with Piastri today but I have no clue about everyone else.

[Bleu]

So I gave teams points by 25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1 system for each day twice. First by fastest lap and secondly by lap count.

 

Pace: 
Ferrari 65

Red Bull 55

McLaren 36

Mercedes 35

RB 30

Sauber 25

Aston Martin 22

Alpine 17

Williams 14

Haas 4

 

Laps:

Haas 58

Ferrari 58

Red Bull 41

Aston Martin 33*

Sauber 32

RB 29

Mercedes 18

Williams 16*

McLaren 11

Alpine 7

 

* Aston Martin and Williams completed the same number of laps on Friday sharing 4th place, so both were awarded 11 points.

[ferrarista]

https://twitter.com/...110700158533651

https://twitter.com/...111822495633716

Max ran on different compounds with always 85kg onboard.

He was lighter but with low PU map.

Edited by ferrarista, 23 February 2024 - 19:34.

[MissingApex]

https://twitter.com/...110700158533651
I always wonder how some random journalist has this kind of information.

https://twitter.com/...111822495633716

Max ran on different compounds with always 85kg onboard.

He was lighter but with low PU map.

[Jerem]

Choo choo!

[vlado]

Choo choo!

I love this

[vlado]

https://www.funoanal...ddle-speed.html

[Blazt]

Adrian Newey’s Dragon

 

[lewislorenzo]

Hamilton ran yesterday evening, I'm comparing those runs.

Still the track would be better today than yesterday but okay mate

[Risil]

Choo choo!

However many times I look at this I can't stop my internal voice screaming PUT YOUR HELMETS ON

[TomNokoe]

Here is my very rough analysis:

 

Race sims

 

(Please don't ask me why the stint avg and the total avg don't seem to line up, I have checked and double checked)

 

The reason most sims total 52 rather than 57 is because I haven't included lap 1, in laps, and out laps.

 

I had to guesstimate Leclerc and Piastri because they didn't get to finish their final (quickest) stint.

• Ferrari are quick
• Piastri really didn't have a good race sim, albeit he's not the lead driver and Bahrain is a weak McLaren track
• Albon was looking great until the final stint, but even so it was a strong run considering time of day
• Encouraging for Haas but probably flattered by track conditions / time of day
• Solid from Bottas and potentially a slower day 2 track
• Ricciardo unrepresentative time of day but clearly quicker than Magnussen

Interesting long runs

• Verstappen is reported to be carrying 85kg for his 15 lap runs, so adjusting to full tanks is 0.3/0.4s, same conditions as Leclerc, first stint avg 1:37.6
• Aston's aren't setting the world on fire but good consistency and deg. Hard to read but I think ahead of McLaren next weekend.

Red Bull

Ferrari +0.3

Mercedes ?

Aston Martin +0.6

McLaren +0.9

RB +1.0

Alpine ?

Williams +1.2

Sauber +1.3

Haas +1.5

[Joseki]

I always wonder how some random journalist has this kind of information.

It's an educated guess coming from another team

https://twitter.com/...112873613570318

[ARTGP]

• Verstappen is reported to be carrying 85kg for his 15 lap runs, so adjusting to full tanks is 0.3/0.4s, same conditions as Leclerc, first stint avg 1:37.6
• Aston's aren't setting the world on fire but good consistency and deg. Hard to read but I think ahead of McLaren next weekend.

Red Bull

Ferrari +0.3

Mercedes ?

Aston Martin +0.6

McLaren +0.9

RB +1.0

Alpine ?

Williams +1.2

Sauber +1.3

Haas +1.5

 

The one thing with Rb is you can make an argument that even though you can add a 3-4 tenth offset to account for the lighter fuel load, the 85kg still flatters the first stint since deg is usually higher with higher fuel and RB never actually had 100kg. As a result, I don't think it's correct to just add 3-4 tenths from weight alone. There should be some offset to account for extra deg due to an extra 15kg of fuel load. Otherwise this was logical to me. 

 

I don't know what Aston and RB were doing but it was not helpful for them to skip the race sims. Merc didn't have any race sim either. 

Edited by ARTGP, 23 February 2024 - 21:40.

[ferrarista]

The one thing with Rb is you can make an argument that even though you can add a 3-4 tenth offset to account for the lighter fuel load, the 85kg still flatters the first stint since deg is usually higher with higher fuel and RB never actually had 100kg. As a result, I don't think it's correct to just add 3-4 tenths from weight alone. There should be some offset to account for extra deg due to an extra 15kg of fuel load. Otherwise this was logical to me.

I don't know what Aston and RB were doing but it was not helpful for them to skip the race sims. Merc didn't have any race sim either.

Correct, also Lec stint was 3 laps longer, so more deg to be taken into account for that.
AFAIK 15kg is more about half a second, but Donadoni also reported that RBR ran a low hybrid mode.

Great job Tom👍🏼

[Brawn BGP 001]

Here is my very rough analysis:

 

Race sims

 

(Please don't ask me why the stint avg and the total avg don't seem to line up, I have checked and double checked)

 

The reason most sims total 52 rather than 57 is because I haven't included lap 1, in laps, and out laps.

 

I had to guesstimate Leclerc and Piastri because they didn't get to finish their final (quickest) stint.

• Ferrari are quick
• Piastri really didn't have a good race sim, albeit he's not the lead driver and Bahrain is a weak McLaren track
• Albon was looking great until the final stint, but even so it was a strong run considering time of day
• Encouraging for Haas but probably flattered by track conditions / time of day
• Solid from Bottas and potentially a slower day 2 track
• Ricciardo unrepresentative time of day but clearly quicker than Magnussen

Interesting long runs

• Verstappen is reported to be carrying 85kg for his 15 lap runs, so adjusting to full tanks is 0.3/0.4s, same conditions as Leclerc, first stint avg 1:37.6
• Aston's aren't setting the world on fire but good consistency and deg. Hard to read but I think ahead of McLaren next weekend.

Red Bull

Ferrari +0.3

Mercedes ?

Aston Martin +0.6

McLaren +0.9

RB +1.0

Alpine ?

Williams +1.2

Sauber +1.3

Haas +1.5

I think Norris will be couple of tenths qucker in a race stint compared to Piastri so maybe closer to AM/Merc, think gap to RBR/Fer will be 0.5s minimum, think them two being 1st and second and Haas being last the only certainties. 

Edited by Brawn BGP 001, 23 February 2024 - 22:41.

[Leatherface]

Still the track would be better today than yesterday but okay mate

So, Sainz is much faster than Leclerc then? Lol

[AustinF1]

Here is my very rough analysis:

 

Race sims

 

(Please don't ask me why the stint avg and the total avg don't seem to line up, I have checked and double checked)

 

The reason most sims total 52 rather than 57 is because I haven't included lap 1, in laps, and out laps.

 

I had to guesstimate Leclerc and Piastri because they didn't get to finish their final (quickest) stint.

• Ferrari are quick
• Piastri really didn't have a good race sim, albeit he's not the lead driver and Bahrain is a weak McLaren track
• Albon was looking great until the final stint, but even so it was a strong run considering time of day
• Encouraging for Haas but probably flattered by track conditions / time of day
• Solid from Bottas and potentially a slower day 2 track
• Ricciardo unrepresentative time of day but clearly quicker than Magnussen

Interesting long runs

• Verstappen is reported to be carrying 85kg for his 15 lap runs, so adjusting to full tanks is 0.3/0.4s, same conditions as Leclerc, first stint avg 1:37.6
• Aston's aren't setting the world on fire but good consistency and deg. Hard to read but I think ahead of McLaren next weekend.

Red Bull

Ferrari +0.3

Mercedes ?

Aston Martin +0.6

McLaren +0.9

RB +1.0

Alpine ?

Williams +1.2

Sauber +1.3

Haas +1.5

Excellent work! Thanks for this.

Edited by AustinF1, 25 February 2024 - 23:36.

[IceSpeed]

Thx @Tom. I haven’t been following testing in detail but Merc never did a long run?

[oli4]

Choo choo!

 

I did that in Portaventura Spain, i can recommend it 

[chrcol]

Here is my very rough analysis:

 

Race sims

 

(Please don't ask me why the stint avg and the total avg don't seem to line up, I have checked and double checked)

 

The reason most sims total 52 rather than 57 is because I haven't included lap 1, in laps, and out laps.

 

I had to guesstimate Leclerc and Piastri because they didn't get to finish their final (quickest) stint.

• Ferrari are quick
• Piastri really didn't have a good race sim, albeit he's not the lead driver and Bahrain is a weak McLaren track
• Albon was looking great until the final stint, but even so it was a strong run considering time of day
• Encouraging for Haas but probably flattered by track conditions / time of day
• Solid from Bottas and potentially a slower day 2 track
• Ricciardo unrepresentative time of day but clearly quicker than Magnussen

Interesting long runs

• Verstappen is reported to be carrying 85kg for his 15 lap runs, so adjusting to full tanks is 0.3/0.4s, same conditions as Leclerc, first stint avg 1:37.6
• Aston's aren't setting the world on fire but good consistency and deg. Hard to read but I think ahead of McLaren next weekend.

Red Bull

Ferrari +0.3

Mercedes ?

Aston Martin +0.6

McLaren +0.9

RB +1.0

Alpine ?

Williams +1.2

Sauber +1.3

Haas +1.5

Nice, but no Merc data available?

[KWSN - DSM]

Nice, but no Merc data available?

 

107%

[CPR]

https://twitter.com/...369142542688698
 



I wonder how much things will change come qualifying...?

[TomNokoe]

Nice, but no Merc data available?

Not really. Russell did what looked like a race sim on Day 1 but was in the garage between stints. The pace wasn't great anyway, but it was Day 1.

 

On Day 2, Hamilton did two 14-lap runs with an average of 1:37.8 and 1:37.7. If it was full tanks, it was good first stint pace, but his deg wasn't great versus Leclerc from Day 3 who could really extend the stint. 

 

Apart from that, Mercedes spent most of the test doing 10 lap runs, starting with a push lap, cool lap, then mini-long run with just enough laps to induce deg. They did this over and over. I assume because it's efficient so allows them to test many different setups and items in a short space of time.

[polesetter1]

Here is my very rough analysis:

 

Race sims

 

(Please don't ask me why the stint avg and the total avg don't seem to line up, I have checked and double checked)

 

The reason most sims total 52 rather than 57 is because I haven't included lap 1, in laps, and out laps.

 

I had to guesstimate Leclerc and Piastri because they didn't get to finish their final (quickest) stint.

• Ferrari are quick
• Piastri really didn't have a good race sim, albeit he's not the lead driver and Bahrain is a weak McLaren track
• Albon was looking great until the final stint, but even so it was a strong run considering time of day
• Encouraging for Haas but probably flattered by track conditions / time of day
• Solid from Bottas and potentially a slower day 2 track
• Ricciardo unrepresentative time of day but clearly quicker than Magnussen

Interesting long runs

• Verstappen is reported to be carrying 85kg for his 15 lap runs, so adjusting to full tanks is 0.3/0.4s, same conditions as Leclerc, first stint avg 1:37.6
• Aston's aren't setting the world on fire but good consistency and deg. Hard to read but I think ahead of McLaren next weekend.

Red Bull

Ferrari +0.3

Mercedes ?

Aston Martin +0.6

McLaren +0.9

RB +1.0

Alpine ?

Williams +1.2

Sauber +1.3

Haas +1.5

Excellent job. I've also made some analysis, based on single lap performance & race simulations. I've made some guestimations, where I've tried to compensate for time of the day, guess the difference between pure pace & race trim, based on degradation on longer stints for teams that haven't made their sims (Mercedes & Alpine). When I was lacking data for some drivers, I've made assumptions based on average performace difference between teammates last season. I know that probably noone cares, but here's how I see this:


 

Note: Logan's lap maybe weren't 100% or bad time of the day. If he'd keep the distance he kept to Albon last season, he'd be 17th fastest.



To be honest, I don't really know what F1.com debrief is based on. I can't see any significant advantage that Red Bull has. Sure, they're still fastest but were they sandbagging? (I've adjusted Max's time to that of Perez and average difference between them in 2023. Otherwise, Ferrari did best times on C3 this week.)
I can't see anything special in VCARB. They look to be quite fast on single lap but their longer runs were anything but spectacular.

I think that Hulkenberg's run was really impressive (as well as Bottas on day 2!). I also have to admit that I've flattered Mercedes a bit here.

Personally, I'm a bit disappointed with McLaren, but they've admitted that track is not to their liking. Also, they've developed all the way to the end of last season, so might've spent less resources on 2024 car.

What do you guys think about it?

Credits go to @f1debrief on X, whose data I've used.

[Forghieri]

Excellent job. I've also made some analysis, based on single lap performance & race simulations. I've made some guestimations, where I've tried to compensate for time of the day, guess the difference between pure pace & race trim, based on degradation on longer stints for teams that haven't made their sims (Mercedes & Alpine). When I was lacking data for some drivers, I've made assumptions based on average performace difference between teammates last season. I know that probably noone cares, but here's how I see this:


 

Note: Logan's lap maybe weren't 100% or bad time of the day. If he'd keep the distance he kept to Albon last season, he'd be 17th fastest.



To be honest, I don't really know what F1.com debrief is based on. I can't see any significant advantage that Red Bull has. Sure, they're still fastest but were they sandbagging? (I've adjusted Max's time to that of Perez and average difference between them in 2023. Otherwise, Ferrari did best times on C3 this week.)
I can't see anything special in VCARB. They look to be quite fast on single lap but their longer runs were anything but spectacular.

I think that Hulkenberg's run was really impressive (as well as Bottas on day 2!). I also have to admit that I've flattered Mercedes a bit here.

Personally, I'm a bit disappointed with McLaren, but they've admitted that track is not to their liking. Also, they've developed all the way to the end of last season, so might've spent less resources on 2024 car.

What do you guys think about it?

Credits go to @f1debrief on X, whose data I've used.

Great job, very interesting, thank you!

[MortenF1]

Didnt Norris say Red Bulls general advantage is bigger than last year? Ie not just in comparison to his car, but to everyone.

[JimmyClark]

Interestingly, Mercedes were slowest in the straight line which means they could well have the engines turned down.

Worryingly though, the second slowest team in the straight line was... Red Bull. Which, given they were often the quickest last year, means they likely had a lot of power in hand.

[polesetter1]

Mercedes was consistently slow also last year. I know that it's new concept this year but I don't think it proves they're sandbagging. Red Bull's speed is different matter, though...

[RedRabbit]

Yes because the point being disputed was that weight doesn't affect braking distance, if you were testing that thesis in the real world you would keep all other variables the same and only alter weight which would obviously (all other things remaining constant) get longer.

In F1, the braking distance is limited entirely by tire grip. The weight of the car itself isn't relevant, as downforce artificially increases the weight being exerted onto the suspension.

A F1 car standing still with fuel weighs several hundred kilograms less than one on track moving at speed.

[Stephane]

So, inertia, no ?

[Leatherface]

Interestingly, Mercedes were slowest in the straight line which means they could well have the engines turned down.

Worryingly though, the second slowest team in the straight line was... Red Bull. Which, given they were often the quickest last year, means they likely had a lot of power in hand.

Were they? I thought everyone was getting excited when Russell passed Leclerc without DRS?

[OO7]

Here is my very rough analysis:

 

Race sims

 

(Please don't ask me why the stint avg and the total avg don't seem to line up, I have checked and double checked)

 

The reason most sims total 52 rather than 57 is because I haven't included lap 1, in laps, and out laps.

 

I had to guesstimate Leclerc and Piastri because they didn't get to finish their final (quickest) stint.

• Ferrari are quick
• Piastri really didn't have a good race sim, albeit he's not the lead driver and Bahrain is a weak McLaren track
• Albon was looking great until the final stint, but even so it was a strong run considering time of day
• Encouraging for Haas but probably flattered by track conditions / time of day
• Solid from Bottas and potentially a slower day 2 track
• Ricciardo unrepresentative time of day but clearly quicker than Magnussen

Interesting long runs

• Verstappen is reported to be carrying 85kg for his 15 lap runs, so adjusting to full tanks is 0.3/0.4s, same conditions as Leclerc, first stint avg 1:37.6
• Aston's aren't setting the world on fire but good consistency and deg. Hard to read but I think ahead of McLaren next weekend.

Red Bull

Ferrari +0.3

Mercedes ?

Aston Martin +0.6

McLaren +0.9

RB +1.0

Alpine ?

Williams +1.2

Sauber +1.3

Haas +1.5

I believe Allison commented that he sees them a little ahead of Ferrari in race pace, but a little behind in Q pace or something like that, FWIW.

[Autodromo]

In F1, the braking distance is limited entirely by tire grip. The weight of the car itself isn't relevant, as downforce artificially increases the weight being exerted onto the suspension.

A F1 car standing still with fuel weighs several hundred kilograms less than one on track moving at speed.

I believe this is not correct.  That statement ignores the increased energy that a car has when it has more mass.  Mass and weight are often used interchangeably but this is a case where, if I remember my physics from 40 years ago, the difference is important.

[polesetter1]

The tires react with certain force during cornering/accelerating/braking to counter inertia of the car. Road car tires can react with around 1 N of force per every 1 N of vertical force acting on it (vehicle mass in that case). Let's call that "coefficient of friction" (which is not). The more vertical force you apply (car weight + downforce), the higher reaction forces you get before locking the tires or spinning BUT this proportion changes!

So, if car weighs 750 kg and generates 2250 kg of downforce (3000 kg in total), coefficient of friction is around 1. So (assuming you have one tire to make it simple), you can decelerate with 4G (3000 kg of vertical force / 750 kg of weight you're actually stopping).

But when your car weighs 800kg and you have 2250 kg of downforce, your deceleration will be (3050/800) around 3,8125 G! (Assuming that our "coefficient of friction wouldn't decrease, but it would).

Therefore, I'll risk to say that weight matters during braking.

[renzmann]

Interestingly, Mercedes were slowest in the straight line which means they could well have the engines turned down.

Worryingly though, the second slowest team in the straight line was... Red Bull. Which, given they were often the quickest last year, means they likely had a lot of power in hand.

That's what I keep thinking. It's reasonable the drag level of the RB20 is very competitive: They were top of the bill last year and their wings are visibly smaller this year. What I don't know, but what I imagine to be likely is that the engine cover and the sidepods are a little less draggy accordingly (the smaller wing hints towards an overall focus of development). So yeah, they were running with high amounts of fuel and/or low PU modes.

 

On the other hand, I reckon they'd want to test their revolutionary cooling ideas, no? Better run the engine high to be sure, no?

[vlado]

[w1Y]

Interestingly, Mercedes were slowest in the straight line which means they could well have the engines turned down.

Worryingly though, the second slowest team in the straight line was... Red Bull. Which, given they were often the quickest last year, means they likely had a lot of power in hand.

Merc have said they have made an effort to make sure straight line speed isn't an issue this year. Maybe why they aren't quite as quick through some of the high speed corners.

But teams do other testing that Bahrain specific pace. They are trying different packages etc and I wouldn't be surprised if some teams didn't even bother focus on a Bahrain set up thinking they could do that at the race weekend. Instead they probably looked at various packages and set ups.

[Bleu]

Just looking at the top speeds Red Bull wasn't fastest so much especially by the end of last year. But on the other hand they were sometimes able to get into the top speed quicker and therefore have advantage in the early part of straight.

[Anderis]

Is there anywhere I can find all lap times from all 3 days? Preferably as a table and not as a chart.

The previous 2 years I was able to find a twitter account sharing such a thing through a google search but no success this year.

[ForzaFormula]

Just looking at the top speeds Red Bull wasn't fastest so much especially by the end of last year. But on the other hand they were sometimes able to get into the top speed quicker and therefore have advantage in the early part of straight.

They have much better exit corner speed, and a huge drs advantage over anyone once opened.

[TomNokoe]

Is there anywhere I can find all lap times from all 3 days? Preferably as a table and not as a chart.

The previous 2 years I was able to find a twitter account sharing such a thing through a google search but no success this year.

https://docs.google....jam7Zg/htmlview

Courtesy of the brilliant F1 Debrief Twitter page

:-)

Edited by TomNokoe, 26 February 2024 - 17:31.

[Anderis]

https://docs.google....jam7Zg/htmlview

Courtesy of the brilliant F1 Debrief Twitter page

:-)

Thank you!