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Track records in practice? Since when?


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#1 Michael Ferner

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 10:08

Collombin

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 11:44

Sterzo, on 21 Feb 2024 - 12:28, said:snapback.png

Three years later I attended the 1000km at the old Spa, seeing Pescarolo’s Matra record the fastest ever lap there


Why did I think Ickx had that record? Practice v race?

Edited by Collombin, 21 February 2024 - 11:48.

#1753 icon_share.pngSterzo

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 12:53

Collombin, on 21 Feb 2024 - 12:44, said:snapback.png

Why did I think Ickx had that record? Practice v race?

Pescarolo's was widely reported at the time to be fastest ever, but you're right, Ickx went quicker to claim pole. Pescarolo had the fastest race lap and Ickx the fastest practice (qualifying) lap. I think at one time only race laps "counted" as the official lap record, which would explain the paradox, but I'd need TNF experts to establish when that changed.

 

Picked up this conversation at Reader's Comments.

 

I cannot answer the question, but I'm surprised: during "my time", lap records could only ever be established during races, naturally. Has that really changed?  :confused:



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#2 Michael Ferner

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 10:12

Aaarggggggggggghh! That post was badly mutilated  :eek:  :(  ):

 

 

Sterzo, on 21 Feb 2024 - 12:28, said:snapback.png

Three years later I attended the 1000km at the old Spa, seeing Pescarolo’s Matra record the fastest ever lap there

 

Collombin, on 21 Feb 2024 - 12:44, said:

snapback.png

Why did I think Ickx had that record? Practice v race?

Pescarolo's was widely reported at the time to be fastest ever, but you're right, Ickx went quicker to claim pole. Pescarolo had the fastest race lap and Ickx the fastest practice (qualifying) lap. I think at one time only race laps "counted" as the official lap record, which would explain the paradox, but I'd need TNF experts to establish when that changed.

 

 

 

Picked up this conversation at Reader's Comments.

 

I cannot answer the question, but I'm surprised: during "my time", lap records could only ever be established during races, naturally. Has that really changed?   :confused:


Edited by Michael Ferner, 23 February 2024 - 10:13.


#3 opplock

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 10:27

As far as I am aware lap records can only be established during races. Even now. 



#4 Collombin

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 10:39

I actually agree that the official records are probably still race only, and shouldn't really have used "record" in my reply as what I was really questioning was the "fastest ever lap" claim, whether official or not. I knew the Ickx time was in practice and therefore assumed Pescarolo's was from the race, but didn't know for sure.

#5 D-Type

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 10:43

I have a feeling that some classes in the USA consider qualifying times also qualify as lap records.
If you go back nearly a century, at Brooklands they did things completely differently and lap records were set separately on an otherwise empty track.  I don't know why.



#6 Collombin

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 10:45

I have a feeling that some classes in the USA consider qualifying times also qualify as lap records


Definitely. Everyone knows Arie holds the Indy lap record. Base it on race laps only and it would be Eddie Cheever.

#7 Michael Ferner

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 11:28

That is true, the reason being that in the US races were usually not timed in the 'European way', that is lap for lap (which, in all probability was the consequence of using extremely short circuits).



#8 2F-001

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 12:41

At least in the upper/serious/professional levels of racing “lap records” seem fairly meaningless to me these days since the the regulations (and sometimes the circuits) change so often and so routinely. Other than, for example, charting whether this year’s Formula X regs yield a faster car than last year’s, or a slower one than Y years ago.

Who gives a tinker’s cuss if driver A did a faster lap than driver B managed last year? It proves nothing; they were likely running cars that were, to all intents and purposes, for different formulae. In those upper-reach categories, by the time the circus revisits any particular venue, the rules will have changed.

Practice and qualifying laps? Interesting perhaps in an abstract and academic way, but subject to the same negations as I outlined above.

When I first began watching racing regularly, categories seemed to remain stable for longer, especially away from the upper rungs (and yes, I know that the seasons seemed to pass more slowly when we were younger), lap records possibly had more relevance. When regulations are stable for some time, then they are interesting.

Edited by 2F-001, 23 February 2024 - 12:48.


#9 Collombin

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 12:45

My original query to Sterzo that prompted the thread was just concern at possibly discovering that Pescarolo had done the quicker lap. Fortunately that wasn't the case and his reply was exactly what I had hoped for.

#10 Vitesse2

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 13:19

If you go back nearly a century, at Brooklands they did things completely differently and lap records were set separately on an otherwise empty track.  I don't know why.

Probably goes back to before the Great War, when Colonel Lindsay Lloyd was writing the first regulations for record runs circa 1910/11. Until the early 1920s, Brooklands was the only permanent facility recognised by the AIACR for world and class records - speed or distance - as it had the only certified timing gear. The Seherr-Thoss Report suggests that the next permanent track with certified timing equipment was Montlhéry in 1925, but there were some distance records set at Monza in 1923, so that may not be entirely correct. Equipment used elsewhere had to be submitted to Paris for certification both before and after an attempt - I assume seals were attached so that the tested equipment couldn't be tampered with.



#11 opplock

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 15:48

Who gives a tinker’s cuss if driver A did a faster lap than driver B managed last year? It proves nothing; they were likely running cars that were, to all intents and purposes, for different formulae. In those upper-reach categories, by the time the circus revisits any particular venue, the rules will have changed.
 

 

I do sometimes amuse myself by telling people that I've beaten the F1 lap record at Castle Combe in a Caterham. Sounds impressive to anyone with no knowledge of motor racing. 

 

Harry Schell's record not Nigel Greensall's. That was for Boss Formula.  



#12 Sterzo

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 15:58

As far as I can establish, there's no "official" definition of a lap record, but common usage in Europe remains as it always was, to include race laps only. We therefore have the following situation:

 

1. Ickx set up the fastest lap on the old Spa.

2. Pescarolo holds the lap record for the old Spa.

3. Opplock is actually more impressive than either.



#13 opplock

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 17:46

As far as I can establish, there's no "official" definition of a lap record, but common usage in Europe remains as it always was, to include race laps only. We therefore have the following situation:

 

1. Ickx set up the fastest lap on the old Spa.

2. Pescarolo holds the lap record for the old Spa.

3. Opplock is actually more impressive than either.

 

:rotfl: Having seen both gentlemen race in Group C I must confess that my only real skill on track was the art of "spun and continued".   



#14 Jim Thurman

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 18:01

I have a feeling that some classes in the USA consider qualifying times also qualify as lap records.
If you go back nearly a century, at Brooklands they did things completely differently and lap records were set separately on an otherwise empty track.  I don't know why.

Yes, and it was no different in the U.S. as oval racing lap records are all from single car qualifying.

 

Also in use is the term "fastest race lap", which is self-explanatory.



#15 FlyingSaucer

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Posted 23 February 2024 - 19:32

Probably goes back to before the Great War, when Colonel Lindsay Lloyd was writing the first regulations for record runs circa 1910/11. Until the early 1920s, Brooklands was the only permanent facility recognised by the AIACR for world and class records - speed or distance - as it had the only certified timing gear. The Seherr-Thoss Report suggests that the next permanent track with certified timing equipment was Montlhéry in 1925, but there were some distance records set at Monza in 1923, so that may not be entirely correct. Equipment used elsewhere had to be submitted to Paris for certification both before and after an attempt - I assume seals were attached so that the tested equipment couldn't be tampered with.

 

Wasn´t Miramas also used for speed trials somewhere in the 20´s and 30´s?

 

I remember seeing this in a magazine sometime ago, but I don't remember where exactly...



#16 Vitesse2

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Posted 24 February 2024 - 08:34

Wasn´t Miramas also used for speed trials somewhere in the 20´s and 30´s?

 

I remember seeing this in a magazine sometime ago, but I don't remember where exactly...

There were some very long distance marks - up to as much as 100,000 kilometres - set at Miramas by Ansaldo in 1925 and Marmon in 1928. Briefly revived in the 1960s by Simca and Ford. But as the banking angle was only two degrees it presumably wasn't as useful for speed records as the high banked ovals at Monza and Montlhéry. It was also shorter than the circuit laid out by Ab Jenkins at Bonneville, which was used for a lot of distance runs in the 1930s.



#17 Hati

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Posted 24 February 2024 - 09:16

I may be nitpicking but a track record is different thing than a lap record. Track record is a simple thing, fastest time driven around the track. Lap record is more complicated, do you count only race laps or qualifying laps too.



#18 Stephen W

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Posted 24 February 2024 - 09:33

As far as I am aware lap records can only be established during races. Even now. 

 

In hillclimbing it is the same. Drivers can only reset records &/or Personal Bests during the competition runs.