138 replies to this topic

[NateF]

George RR Martin must've been a racing fan

Is he dead?

[Red5ive]

Assuming you are not American so don't know that most Americans would take "Dukes of Hazzard" swagger as being a southern redneck. aka hick. Not sure what you Brits term someone similar.

 

She's amused by them. Doesn't respect them.

 

Chav is the British word probably.

 

Anyway interesting article even if a little bit too much left wing chip on the shoulder was showing in places.

 

As someone said above - the very interesting bit (and the bit F1 should be very worried about) were the point s about how boring the sport is with one winner and how that will hit the audience - particularly in the US.

Edited by Red5ive, 06 March 2024 - 18:25.

[DCapps]

 

Anyway interesting article even if a little bit too much left wing chip on the shoulder was showing in places.

 

 

As compared to the usual reactionary political views of many of the honchos etc in auto racing?

[jonpollak]

Fair play to you JP, it was a great read.

As for directing anyone to here !

I know, right?
What WAS I thinking?!?!

P.S. Keep those hinges well lubricated kids
Jp

[Jim Thurman]

I used to refer to Ecclestone as the Poison Dwarf in some of my RVM columns and it was not a term of endearment.

I did manage to get banned by Bernie from the USGP, which was an interesting experience, of course.

  [snip]

At any rate, Wagner makes the good case for just how shallow and even farcical the current state of motor sport journalism -- especially F1 -- has become.

And, the origins of stock car racing and as a result of NASCAR are not thanks to the moonshiners and the illegal alcohol business, another of the great myths of American Civilization.

The myth overlooks the stock car races at the Oakland Speedway, Mines Field, Atlantic City Speedway, and Elgin, for example, that preceded Bill France and NASCAR.

Don, thank you so much for this. As you and Nathan mention, this was hardly a Liberty invention as Mr. Ecclestone took things down the same path.

 

Also, thanks for pointing out the early stock car races at Mines Field and Oakland Speedway (also add Southern Speedway in South Gate, California into that mix), though there's no reason to not believe that the West Coast racers might have been every bit as capable of a moonshine background as the overly romanticized and stereotypical view of the Southern United States. Also add the AAA stock car races at Langhorne to that list of early, pre-France/NASCAR stock car racing.

[loki]

Who do you think pays the drivers, mechanics, engineers, truck drivers, janitors, etc, etc, etc?

 

And where does that money come from? Thin air?

Money from FOM.  Gone are the days of team owners paying out of pocket.  Commissioning a piece from her and expecting something different than what was published is akin to hiring Picasso and being surprised when it's not a Bob Ross landscape.

[loki]

Yeah absolutely, why was it pulled? 

He got too excited and had to retire to the lavatory…

[Risil]

Is he dead?

Er, good point. No he is not.

[loki]

Socialism is about equal chances and modern socialism (social democrat) also is not anti capitalism but they want to regulate it and soften the rough edges, diminish the super high equality also. Human rights and honest worker rights (fair pay, good working conditions, the right to have paid hollday every year, a catch net if you become ill or lose your work so you don't drop straight in poverty) are also a core parts of that ideology.

 

Communism is about workers or employees owning the capital / the production tools equally whilst capitalism is about people owning those production means / capital and acting like a shareholder whilst not performing the work but rather living from the interest of other people doing the work.

That's a huge difference.

You are wrong about suggesting that Christianity and Islam beiing different. They are exactly the same with just small variations, the Islam is basically a more modernised copy of Christianity.

They both believe exactly the same except these differences:
- Chrisitans believe that Jezus died on the Cross and then resurected

* Moslims believe that Jezus (who is just as important to them, Jezus, Isa in Arabic, and Maria, Myriam, are mentioned more as Mohammed in the Quran) did not die on the cross but that Judah took his place and that Jezus led a normal life afterwards and died in Mekka whilst in Pakistan they believe that Jezus (Issa) turned 100 years old and died in Pakistan.
Islam rejects the resurection of Christ as fantasy, because no human can possibly resurect. So Islam is less extreme in their interpretation.

- Christian belief says that there is a wholy trinity (rejected by Protestants), and that Jezus is part human part God and most importantly that he is the Son of God

* Islam rejects wholy trinity, they also reject that Jezus was or is the Son of God because there is only one God (their God is the same one as the Christian's God) and he can have no Son. Jezsus for them, just like Mohammed, is just a Messenger (Prophet) with a task to distribute the message of God

 

- Christians belief that at one point the Messiah (jezus) will come back, he will face the devil then and after that there will be an Apocalyps
* Islam says that the Messiah (Issa?) will come (back) will come back, he will then prove that there is a fake Messiah, then he will go to Jerusalem and preach, then he will live a normal life. After the return of the Messiah there will be 1000 years of piece and then an Apocalyps (I think)

 

Those are the main differences (just look it up on wikipedia if you don't believe me), in se it is exactly the same religion. And Jezus is one of the 5 most important prophets / messengers for them. John the Babptist is one of the most important ones as well for Muslims.

Less mansplain, more substance.  It's an analogy.  We’re educated adults here.  We don't need you trying to be the smartest guy in the room.

[loki]

Well...this has been my concern for a while.  How R&T can say "editorial direction" when they knew her writing direction is insulting to the intelligence.

 

New editor in chief after the piece had been commissioned, edited and scheduled for publication.  Apparently in the previous regime it was OK.  New guy not so much.

 

They were able to get the full Streisand effect with this one.  

[loki]

Is he dead?

 

 

Er, good point. No he is not.

 

[mclarensmps]

It's a long piece that I've been reading in pieces, but so far I've really enjoyed the read. 

[ivanalesi]

Great article, I think INEOS should be OK with it considering the roots of the company & the product it tries to sell. Well, may be their car CEO doesn't exactly sound like the type which would be fit for making proper off-roaders, but again it's a good off-roaders, she must be doing good enough... but other than that... it's a good read!

The funny thing is, that the Paddock itself now is way less pretentious than back in the Bernie days. There are sooo many ppl, before it was super exclusive place.

[ensign14]

Today, motor sport has distilled itself in most instances to the very essence of capitalism, Milton Friedman and Gordon Gekko would be utterly delighted.

 

Gekko might be.  Friedman would probably be appalled at the oligopoly and restriction of the free market - and would be appalled at the state of the F1 franchises now.  The late eighties with the Eurobruns giving it a lash would be much more to his taste.

[GreenMachine]

I thought it was great seeing a race day through the eyes of someone coming from a different place, who is not one of 'the regulars'.  I could quibble about some of the writing, but that is what you get when you get a left-field writer in (yes, pun intended).

 

R&T used to be my US magazine of choice, and this piece doesn't surprise or disappoint me, least of all offend me.

[pdac]

New editor in chief after the piece had been commissioned, edited and scheduled for publication.  Apparently in the previous regime it was OK.  New guy not so much.

 

They were able to get the full Streisand effect with this one.  

 

Indeed.

[FLB]

He got too excited and had to retire to the lavatory…

 

 

Max Tani sur X : "Apparently Road & Track EIC Daniel Pund was not aware of the piece before it was published, and has told people he would've stopped its publication if he knew about it in advance. He asked for the story to be taken down because he felt that it was not right for the magazine..." / X (twitter.com)

[Blundle]

It’s a desperately sorry state of affairs when a piece of writing of such outstanding quality as this gets pulled for not meeting some vague editorial criteria.
 

The observations may be uncomfortable for some but necessary all the same. 

[FLB]

New editor in chief after the piece had been commissioned, edited and scheduled for publication.  Apparently in the previous regime it was OK.  New guy not so much.

 

They were able to get the full Streisand effect with this one.  

It's getting the attention of journalists from other media, the kind that doesn't give a flying you-know-what about F1 (or cars in general for that matter).

Edited by FLB, 07 March 2024 - 00:00.

[OvDrone]

So, if you criticize the fake over-exuberance of the F1 paddock, you are a damn socialist. 


Formula 1 has become utterly unlikable at the beginning of this year.

[MattPete]

She talks like a puritan priest ,usual for socialists which is basically a violent religion - since voluntary socialism is quite rare. 

 

What sort of cult do you belong to?  You have a very strange world-view, and you seem to not understand the words you use.

[AustinF1]

My favorite part was when she described being amazed at seeing Patagonia around Austin, because 'it doesn't even get cold there'.

[Fastcake]

I made a point to read it after seeing it had been pulled, and I imagine I never would have even come across it had it not been. As I suspect is the same for almost everyone here. Quite what the wisdom was behind pulling it after hitting publish I do not know, once you've done that stick to your guns.

 

I think we could all do with reading a long form article from a different perspective from time to time. I certainly think we could do with someone who is not one of us from skewering something we are invested in, particularly when they give a voice to something many of us have been thinking about Formula One for some time. It's nice to know that it's not just the old hardcore base who think something is increasingly awry with this sport, and if it can be seen from the outside and inside, maybe we're not the ones who are wrong.

[John B]

Well, Logano's 'attire'included a $10,000 glove...

Edited by John B, 07 March 2024 - 02:54.

[AustinF1]

Great article, I think INEOS should be OK with it considering the roots of the company & the product it tries to sell. Well, may be their car CEO doesn't exactly sound like the type which would be fit for making proper off-roaders, but again it's a good off-roaders, she must be doing good enough... but other than that... it's a good read!

The funny thing is, that the Paddock itself now is way less pretentious than back in the Bernie days. There are sooo many ppl, before it was super exclusive place.

I'm not certain it's less pretentious, but it's certainly more crowded with people who seem to have a lot of money, of varying degrees, of course. I've been lucky enough to have been welcomed into the Paddock for only one GP weekend. That was in 2012, and it was never what I would call 'crowded', not even on Sunday. Now, from the look of it on TV, it looks very crowded all the time. Must be quite hectic, especially for the people trying to work there. Someone mentioned upthread the sudden, vast increase in the number of wealthy people in recent years. I've noticed this too, but I thought maybe I was imagining things. I wonder what caused this increase.

Edited by AustinF1, 07 March 2024 - 08:15.

[piszkosfred]

She has two articles on Road and Track, worth to read them too: 

 

https://www.roadandt...ate-wagner-bio/

Edited by piszkosfred, 07 March 2024 - 08:10.

[absinthedude]

Upside:  This is probably the most attention Road & Track will get this year.

Downside:  Chasing away quality writing will accelerate what is already a precipitous decline.  I had a subscription for decades, but had not thought of R&T in years. 

 

The downside for R&T here is that they're not even getting the clicks and traffic because we are all accessing the article via an archive site. Their loss. Meanwhile, Kate Wagner's reputation will no doubt increase. Hopefully her gain. I'll go find some of her articles on other subjects, perhaps competitive cycling. Not a sport I hold any interest in but I suspect her observations will prove a compelling read. 

 

And yes, it is possible to disagree with someone's views and still enjoy their writing. I love the novels of the late Michael Crighton despite his take on climate change which he doesn't even thinly veil in his books. But the plots are good, the writing makes you want to turn the next page....I had no worries  paying for his books. 

[TennisUK]

Good article, no need to pull it whatsoever. Very well written description of what it’s like back there.

[Alex79]

I have absolutely no fragging idea why this article was pulled. it was fun to read had me laughing out loud for a few times and it was interesting to have the insights of a journalist who covers cycling -something I am also interested in - now wandering around in an F1 Paddock.

[Risil]

Well, Logano's 'attire'included a $10,000 glove...

Reminds me of Ric Flair's old response to hecklers at wrestling shows: "My shoes cost more than your house"

[SCUDmissile]

Lovely read.

[jonpollak]

The funny thing is, that the Paddock itself now is way less pretentious than back in the Bernie days. There are sooo many ppl, before it was super exclusive place.

I’ve been in a few paddocks in my life. I’ll agree with AustinF1.

Less people with vast sums of money make for less obnoxious entitlement attitudes and BS. Todays paddock is teaming with ignorance along with all that money. They don’t know schitt about racing.
 

Jp

Edited by jonpollak, 08 March 2024 - 00:39.

[absinthedude]

I suspect it's not just "more wealthy people in the paddock".....but there are more super rich people in the paddock, who have no real interest in F1 or motorsport in general. They are there to be seen. F1 has always had a few of those, but at least the 90s and naughties mostly saw VIPs who had some idea that they were there to watch a motor race. Some even had knowledge of the sport that they'd impart to Martin Brundle on his grid walk. 

[red stick]

Ah, the days when celebrities knew who Brundle was and spoke to him knowledgeably, instead of siccing bodyguards on him like he was a feces-flinging gibbon.

[loki]

Ah, the days when celebrities knew who Brundle was and spoke to him knowledgeably, instead of siccing bodyguards on him like he was a feces-flinging gibbon.

 

You say that like it’s a bad thing…

 

 

 

 

[chrcol]

I dont think the article is politically aimed, it just made the point the experience was surreal to be amongst so much wealth when at the event, like being in a different world.

 

Had a similar experience myself, friend of mine (very wealthy) took me to an event where we were in VIP, I was worried about parking due to mobility issues, and he was like dont worry it wont be a problem, we then park in someone else's car park without fear right opposite the event, the owner approaches and my friend pulls out a wad of notes, and the owner accepted £2000 in cash, for my friend he didnt have a care in the world for it.  I met a bunch of people from a social circle I will likely never see again.

Edited by chrcol, 11 March 2024 - 07:07.

[ray b]

your humble and faithful servant HNM WHO USE TO WRITE FOR THEM about f-1

henry at one point in the late 60's OWNED 2 GTO'S AS DRIVERS HOW IS THAT FOR FORESIGHT ?

 

WOULD APPROVE OF THE STORY and the sorry state F-1 has fallen to 

and would have printed it if he was in charge of R&T

I think John Bond the owner in the 50/60's would have printed it also

the modern CORPrats scum who fear offense are the problem

 

miami GP tickets were $1200.00 GA no seat 

DROP TO 305 FOR LOCALS THIS YEAR

Edited by ray b, 11 March 2024 - 14:02.

[Dolph]

Dunno why you think its a good read. I mean I read it, but I was quite concious of the fact that its an article written in a manner as to ridicule F1 and its sponsors. You can ridicule almost anything you want. It doesnt actually make it a worthwhile read or a good article. I think its pretty much worthless.

If its not clear: anything can be ridiculed in this manner. So what!?

Edited by Dolph, 11 March 2024 - 13:45.

[Dolph]

I have absolutely no fragging idea why this article was pulled. it was fun to read had me laughing out loud for a few times and it was interesting to have the insights of a journalist who covers cycling -something I am also interested in - now wandering around in an F1 Paddock.

What was the insight of a journalist that covers cycling!? Nothing.