28 replies to this topic

[NCB619]

Hi all, long time no post.

 

I'm trying to put together some sort of lineage timeline for WEC/WSC/Le Mans + IMSA / ALMS / Can-AM / Any of the American Sportscar series - mostly for my filing of cars in my Assetto Corsa mods archive

https://docs.google....t#gid=470905361

I'd like to get everyone's / anyone's thoughts on any gaps or how this can be improved.

 

I know the timeline is much, much, much more convoluted than this, but I am basically trying to simplify it as best as possible.

At the moment, I have only gone from the introduction of FIA's Groups in 1966 (for Europe/WSC/WEC) and from both the Can-Am series and introduction of the IMSA GT Championship in 1971 on the stateside.


Essentially, for top tier prototypes:

Europe / WEC : Group 6 > Group 5 > Group 6 > Group C > LMP > LMP900 > LMP1 > Hypercar

IMSA : Group 7 > Group C > LMP > LMP900 > LMP1 > Daytona Prototype > DPi > Hypercar

GT racing is the tough one to crack for me. So many iterations and differations between Groups 4, 3 and 2 in the 60s (and then Group 5 again in the 70s), and then GT1, GT2, GT3, GTE/GTLM, N-GT for Europe and GTO, GTS, GTU, GTX, GTD, GTC, GT3, GTE in America.
 

Edited by NCB619, 12 March 2024 - 07:50.

[10kDA]

The Can-Am Challenge was administered by the SCCA, not IMSA. I don't believe IMSA ever sanctioned racing defined by FIA's Group 7.

[NCB619]

True, but I don’t see any national prototype racing in the states other than that until the introduction of GTP in 1982.

[DCapps]

The Can-Am Challenge was administered by the SCCA, not IMSA. I don't believe IMSA ever sanctioned racing defined by FIA's Group 7.

 

Correct, IMSA did not begin with its Sedan Category until 1971, with the SCCA being the US sanctioning body for Group 7.

 

The IMSA Sedan Category or "Baby Grands" had two classes:

A = up ro 2000cc pushrods / up to 1600cc overhead cam

 

B = 2000-4000cc pushrods / 16000-2000cc overhead cam

 

The IMRRC has a ton of IMSA stuff, including THE original 1971 IMSA scrapbook.

[DCapps]

True, but I don’t see any national prototype racing in the states other than that until the introduction of GTP in 1982.

 

The AAGT = All American GT of IMSA... whatever it was, it was great stuff.

[NCB619]

Correct, IMSA did not begin with its Sedan Category until 1971, with the SCCA being the US sanctioning body for Group 7.

 

The IMSA Sedan Category or "Baby Grands" had two classes:

A = up ro 2000cc pushrods / up to 1600cc overhead cam

 

B = 2000-4000cc pushrods / 16000-2000cc overhead cam

 

The IMRRC has a ton of IMSA stuff, including THE original 1971 IMSA scrapbook.

 

 

The AAGT = All American GT of IMSA... whatever it was, it was great stuff.

 

Yes, that al makes sense.

Probably makes sense for me to clarify/change my initial statement of "IMSA : Group 7 > Group C > LMP > LMP900 > LMP1 > Daytona Prototype > DPi > Hypercar" to just "USA" rather than "IMSA"
I've only used "IMSA" in the sense that that is where the top tier Prototypes are now stateside, and hence the inclusion of "Group 7" as the initial top tier prototypes, considering that IMSA's initial GTO/GTU categories introduced in 1971 would be more akin to Group 4 / GT racing in Europe, rather than the prototype/sportscars of Group 6, and later Group C

Also doesn't help with the whole Rolex Sports Car Series split/merger through the 2000s/early 2010s

[DCapps]

Be careful with the nomenclature: it was Class A and Class B in 1971, and definitively not GTU and GTO., that came later.

 

Before Group 7, there were the SCCA modified classes and the USRRC along with the USAC sports car championship (1958-1962) as well.

 

All this information is out there, but takes a bit of correlating.

 

If your focus is on the "prototype" farce that was concocted to keep the flat-out sports-racing cars in the GT races, have fun.

[Bob Riebe]

Prototypes first came to IMSA when , Bill France and powers that be at LeMans, designed LeMans and Daytona races that had special classes to allow Euro. or U.S. cars into the race as there was no category for them to race in.

By 1976 AAGT had become too modified to meet FIA rules and there was no class for prototypes in the Daytona 24 hours.

 

IMAS GT classes morphed into AAGT morphed into GTX/ Group 5 which morphed into prototypes.

The GT cars became less production based as years went by.

 

SCCA A/B seadan turned into Professional TransAm  Over 2 litres/ Under 2 litres.

Under 2 litres morphed into  2.5 litres challenge.

 

 

1974 TransAm became a GT series , I forget if there was more than 1 class but in 1976 it became a GT series with at least two classes, Cat. II, no tube frame but other wise wide open and Cat. I productin GT cars.

At this point IMSA AAGT cars were too modified for Trans-Am races as Bill Chamberlain found out when he built a modified Corvette.

In 1978 Trans-Am allowed semi-tube frame cars, but had to have stock pick-up points,  with rules becoming more liberal each year following with Cat. II eventually being discontinued and Cat. I morphing continually until in 1983 Cat. I cars were productionin based in name only..

 

This is an abstract of an abstract as rules were changing constantly during the late seventies into the early eighties.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 11 March 2024 - 23:48.

[NCB619]

Be careful with the nomenclature: it was Class A and Class B in 1971, and definitively not GTU and GTO., that came later.

 

Before Group 7, there were the SCCA modified classes and the USRRC along with the USAC sports car championship (1958-1962) as well.

 

All this information is out there, but takes a bit of correlating.

 

If your focus is on the "prototype" farce that was concocted to keep the flat-out sports-racing cars in the GT races, have fun.

Trying to look at both, but generally splitting 'prototypes' from 'GT', although have realised they essentially, in IMSA circles, crossed baths (with Group 5/GTX style cars being classed as GTP prior to the advent of Group C)

Again, I know this sequencing is wrong, and will be much more convoluted, but trying to keep it simple and have as much align as possible, even if there are slight differences.


Will post an image of the spreadsheet/timeline previously linked in OP, but am on my work computer at the moment (shh)

 

https://ibb.co/bgLdzbW

Edited by NCB619, 12 March 2024 - 02:35.

[10kDA]

True, but I don’t see any national prototype racing in the states other than that until the introduction of GTP in 1982.

Group 7 was not for prototypes, it was for purpose-built two-seat race cars such as the cars which had been running in SCCA's USRRC and USAC's road racing series for full-fender cars. The FIA "prototype" designation contained rules for luggage space and spare tires, due to Group 6's definition of "prototype" meaning a possible even if far-fetched road-going version of a car meeting the rules. Group 7 had no such requirements and were considered "sports/racing" cars, more or less, due to two seats and full bodywork.

[NCB619]

Group 7 was not for prototypes, it was for purpose-built two-seat race cars such as the cars which had been running in SCCA's USRRC and USAC's road racing series for full-fender cars. The FIA "prototype" designation contained rules for luggage space and spare tires, due to Group 6's definition of "prototype" meaning a possible even if far-fetched road-going version of a car meeting the rules. Group 7 had no such requirements and were considered "sports/racing" cars, more or less, due to two seats and full bodywork.

Is still much closer to, using the FIA terms, Group 6, than it is Group 4 though, correct? That's where I'm leaning towards in terms of calling it USA's top "Prototype" series at the time. I'm making a very distinct separation between GT and Prototypes here, akin to today's WEC and IMSA having Hypercar (Protoypes) and GT3 (GT)

[Bob Riebe]

Be careful with the nomenclature: it was Class A and Class B in 1971, and definitively not GTU and GTO., that came later.

Before Group 7, there were the SCCA modified classes and the USRRC along with the USAC sports car championship (1958-1962) as well.

 

All this information is out there, but takes a bit of correlating.

If your focus is on the "prototype" farce that was concocted to keep the flat-out sports-racing cars in the GT races, have fun.

IMSA did have GTO/GTU and TO/TU classes in 1971 as Bill Hennig won TO in a Javelin that year.

The one race in 1970 that it is hard to find info on ran the A/B classes from what I have read.

 

IMSA never allowed Group 7 cars but Group 6 cars could run in the SCCA Can-Am --  (Actually any thing that could qualify could run the Can-Am)

Edited by Bob Riebe, 12 March 2024 - 03:35.

[NCB619]

IMSA did have GTO/GTU and TO/TU classes in 1971 as Bill Hennig won TO in a Javelin that year.

The one race in 1970 that it is hard to find info on ran the A/B classes from what I have read.

 

IMSA never allowed Group 7 cars but Group 6 cars could run in the SCCA Can-Am --  (Actually any thing that could qualify could run the Can-Am)

 

 

Group 7 was not for prototypes, it was for purpose-built two-seat race cars such as the cars which had been running in SCCA's USRRC and USAC's road racing series for full-fender cars. The FIA "prototype" designation contained rules for luggage space and spare tires, due to Group 6's definition of "prototype" meaning a possible even if far-fetched road-going version of a car meeting the rules. Group 7 had no such requirements and were considered "sports/racing" cars, more or less, due to two seats and full bodywork.

Ah, yes I sort of get the point now, having had a proper good look at the old SCCA and USRRC series.

Have put Group 7 as it's own class (not sure I should put it as comparable to latter day DP/DPi from the 2010s though - as you say, little to no restrictions on Group 7)
But, going through the old SCCA and USRRC, have esentially (simply, and probably not entirely correct to do so though) classed "Modified" as the "Sportscar/Prototype" class for USA, and "Production" as the "Group 4" / "Grand Tourer" class for USA.
Updated / standalone spreadsheet for viewing here (and also added to OP)

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing
 

[Secretariat]

...At the moment, I have only gone from the introduction of FIA's Groups in 1966 (for Europe/WSC/WEC) and from both the Can-Am series and introduction of the IMSA GT Championship in 1971 on the stateside.


Essentially, for top tier prototypes:

Europe / WEC : Group 6 > Group 5 > Group 6 > Group C > LMP > LMP900 > LMP1 > Hypercar

IMSA : Group 7 > Group C > LMP > LMP900 > LMP1 > Daytona Prototype > DPi > Hypercar

GT racing is the tough one to crack for me. So many iterations and differations between Groups 4, 3 and 2 in the 60s (and then Group 5 again in the 70s), and then GT1, GT2, GT3, GTE/GTLM, N-GT for Europe and GTO, GTS, GTU, GTX, GTD, GTC, GT3, GTE in America.
 

There was a period of time in which the then name Grand-AM series (running parallel to ALMS) ran Sporting Racing Prototypes SR1 and SR2 (SRP1 & 2) as their top classes.

Edited by Secretariat, 12 March 2024 - 15:18.

[DCapps]

Bob,

 

Duh. And, Double Duh.

 

My bad! as they say. My head was wrapped around the Sedan series for some reason.

Along with John Bishop once making it ia point to me that for the Sedan series it was A and B classes...

 

GTO and GTU made its appearance with eh April VIR event and the inaugural IMSA GT series race.

 

Good catch.

[E1pix]

Don, no worries, I live in Octuple Duh terrain.

Ah, yes I sort of get the point now, having had a proper good look at the old SCCA and USRRC series.
Have put Group 7 as it's own class (not sure I should put it as comparable to latter day DP/DPi from the 2010s though - as you say, little to no restrictions on Group 7)
But, going through the old SCCA and USRRC, have esentially (simply, and probably not entirely correct to do so though) classed "Modified" as the "Sportscar/Prototype" class for USA, and "Production" as the "Group 4" / "Grand Tourer" class for USA.
Updated / standalone spreadsheet for viewing here (and also added to OP)
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

Nice post, please do it more often. Welcome.

If what you mean by “Modified” are foregone classes like “C Modified,” the more correct term used by SCCA after Modified is “Sports Racer.”

A/SR was Group 7, B/SR were 2-liter cars like the Lola T290 (unsure of that Group number, maybe 4, but what Jo Bonnier was killed in at Le Mans in 1972), C/SR mostly used 1300cc Cosworth BDHs, D/SR were mostly motorcycle-engined cars limited to, I think, to 850 cc.

[Collombin]

The spreadsheet doesn't seem to reflect that from 1966-69 Group 4 was a sportscar category and Group 5 a touring car category. They more or less swapped in 1970.

[SamoanAttorney]

There was a period of time in which the then name Grand-AM series (running parallel to ALMS) ran Sporting Racing Prototypes SR1 and SR2 (SRP1 & 2) as their top classes.

 

GrandAm took its initial SR1/SR2 rulebook for 2000 to 2002 from an alliance with John Mangoletsi's ISRS/SRWC/FIASCC (word soup!). Roger Edmondson, first boss of GARRA, attended a few races over in Europe. 'Mango' took his Barmy Army over to Daytona and Road America in 2000 but few of his competitors made the journey, and the partnership foundered through lack of interest, and GARRA headed back in time creating Daytona Prototypes for the 2003 season.

[DCapps]

Just looking at the spreadsheet gave me both a headache and the need to suggest that it should be perhaps approached  by tackling one, say Europe/WEC, first, and then the other, USA.

 

Trying to both at the same time -- simultaneously -- seems to be a bit much. At least for those merely brilliant and not geniuses.

 

After putting together one and then the other, that is when the analysis, cross-checking, and so forth should take place.

 

That is when the process would begin to identify gaps in the research as well as the development of how the archive might be set up.

 

Just a suggestion of course. Build the thesis and then the dissertation, as they say.

 

Certainly an interesting project. Your research would certainly benefit from the historiography regarding this topic, were there one, of course. Perhaps there is one, but not one that has been shared, if you will. I think that the elements are floating around out there, but not pieced together. Then again, isn't part of this creating an archive which connotes the presence of the rules, regulations, etc for all this? This would suggest access to the AIACR/FIA archives, the Yellow Books that appeared in 1968 would be a be help on that, along with SCCA and IMSA archives (along with NASCAR archives since that who ended up with IMSA) as well.

[NCB619]

Don, no worries, I live in Octuple Duh terrain.

Nice post, please do it more often. Welcome.

If what you mean by “Modified” are foregone classes like “C Modified,” the more correct term used by SCCA after Modified is “Sports Racer.”

A/SR was Group 7, B/SR were 2-liter cars like the Lola T290 (unsure of that Group number, maybe 4, but what Jo Bonnier was killed in at Le Mans in 1972), C/SR mostly used 1300cc Cosworth BDHs, D/SR were mostly motorcycle-engined cars limited to, I think, to 850 cc.

Yes, had basically meant something like that. Wasn't going to get bogged down in the classes (C, B, etc) until I sorted out exactly what went where (Modified, Sports Racer, Production). 
That makes it sound like the B/SR would be around Groups 5/6 (Prototype). But more on that a little bit later on the post

 

The spreadsheet doesn't seem to reflect that from 1966-69 Group 4 was a sportscar category and Group 5 a touring car category. They more or less swapped in 1970.

 

Good spot, that Early 70's FIA Group 4/5/6 was a pain to track!

Just looking at the spreadsheet gave me both a headache and the need to suggest that it should be perhaps approached  by tackling one, say Europe/WEC, first, and then the other, USA.

 

Trying to both at the same time -- simultaneously -- seems to be a bit much. At least for those merely brilliant and not geniuses.

 

After putting together one and then the other, that is when the analysis, cross-checking, and so forth should take place.

 

That is when the process would begin to identify gaps in the research as well as the development of how the archive might be set up.

 

Just a suggestion of course. Build the thesis and then the dissertation, as they say.

 

Certainly an interesting project. Your research would certainly benefit from the historiography regarding this topic, were there one, of course. Perhaps there is one, but not one that has been shared, if you will. I think that the elements are floating around out there, but not pieced together. Then again, isn't part of this creating an archive which connotes the presence of the rules, regulations, etc for all this? This would suggest access to the AIACR/FIA archives, the Yellow Books that appeared in 1968 would be a be help on that, along with SCCA and IMSA archives (along with NASCAR archives since that who ended up with IMSA) as well.

It has been quite a headache! (Hence the reason for me adding whenever I can that I am taking a simplified approach where I can until I get it all down pat)

 

But, yes in tackling one first (Europe, then USA) I have tried to do that already - I'm pretty comfortable with how/where the look back at the European series is tracking on this (albeit, still a few minor changes).

 

Lots of things to read and research for the history in the States, given that essentially am looking at quite a few competitions, including some that run simultaneously before ultimately merging. Not sure whether it's worth just considering IMSA's timeline (going back to the initial Camel GT series) and then prior to that just looking at the old SCCA and USRRC series (which in turn also had a couple seasons running concurrently if I have looked at it right?)

[Bob Riebe]

With the SCCA, all, the professional classes, up to 1982 were just professional versions of amateur SCCA classes.

 

In Sports Racing, minimum regulations: displacement, car size, two-seats and a few others all which applied to A-B-C-D if you were within those, any thing could run IF it could qualify for the race.

(The crap-wagon fendered { Formula A } Can-Am cars in 1975 were the first bastardization of the old rules,)

 

John Greenwood ran one of his IMSA/Trans-Am Corvettes at Road America June Sprints in the  A Sports Racing class for testing purposes.

Other drivers did similar things on occasion.

[JacnGille]

 

 

SCCA A/B seadan turned into Professional TransAm  Over 2 litres/ Under 2 litres.

Under 2 litres morphed into  2.5 litres challenge.

 

 

I would have worded this a little differently. SCCA  A & B Sedan continued as amateur racing classes for some time. A & B Sedan rules formed the Pro Trans Am classes.

[10kDA]

Don, no worries, I live in Octuple Duh terrain.

Nice post, please do it more often. Welcome.

If what you mean by “Modified” are foregone classes like “C Modified,” the more correct term used by SCCA after Modified is “Sports Racer.”

A/SR was Group 7, B/SR were 2-liter cars like the Lola T290 (unsure of that Group number, maybe 4, but what Jo Bonnier was killed in at Le Mans in 1972), C/SR mostly used 1300cc Cosworth BDHs, D/SR were mostly motorcycle-engined cars limited to, I think, to 850 cc.

Also, one could "drive up" into higher classes if you didn't mind running against much more capable cars. At Elkhart Lake's June Sprints maybe 79 or 80 a guy was running a Pinto in A/SR. Roll cage inside the standard unit body, and as I recall a single carb though running a pipe. I asked what made the Pinto an A/SR class car and the driver said in the class the Pinto actually fit; he had been protested a number of times by a certain competitor. As a result he moved out of the class so he could race without repetitive ongoing hassle. He said he had gotten no complaints from drivers of true SR cars and the modded-out-of-A/P-spec Corvettes etc about being too slow. Which I took to mean he stayed out of the way because it was clearly not a "trick pony" of any kind out on the track.

 

GrandAm took its initial SR1/SR2 rulebook for 2000 to 2002 from an alliance with John Mangoletsi's ISRS/SRWC/FIASCC (word soup!). Roger Edmondson, first boss of GARRA, attended a few races over in Europe. 'Mango' took his Barmy Army over to Daytona and Road America in 2000 but few of his competitors made the journey, and the partnership foundered through lack of interest, and GARRA headed back in time creating Daytona Prototypes for the 2003 season.

Really -  Roger Edmondson? I didn't know that. Having run AMA/CCS back in the day, certain things about the WIndscreens On Wheels DP class make a little more sense, at least to me on a personal level LOL

[E1pix]

I remember that Pinto…!

A friend and townsman also drove one in B Sedan for years (Howard Coleman).

So far as “trick pony,” LOL.

[10kDA]

To the OP: Figuring out a timeline while observing some kind of "hierarchy" during the 60s and 70s will be difficult for US racing. I was not aware the Assetto Corsa was a video game, where a linear progression regarding the hardware could be useful. You have to realize in the 60s and 70s top-line series were concurrent and not necessarily to the exclusion of other series. It was not a "ladder system" with one way to a perceived Top. The point was to allow, for example, cars meeting the same rules as A/SR to run in SCCA's USRRC as well as Can-Am, and while it lasted, were legal for USAC's road racing series even though sanctioning bodies directed hissy fits at drivers who dared to cross club lines to race. This gave pro racers more opportunities to race for actual cash purses (in road racing - whodathought?) without having very different equipment for each sanctioning body's series. Frinstance, everybody showed up at Nassau for the Speed Weeks and raced against each other in similar cars while organizational challenges may not have allowed that within sanctioned series in the US.

[70JesperOH]

If you follow this link https://historicdb.f...ions/appendix-k and go for Appendix K Full 2023 you'll find the FIA's version of they fit historic cars in a modern context. It might be a help, it might be a muddying things. Pages 39-45 will the most interesting for this thread.

 

Jesper

[Bob Riebe]

This was the first genuine Prototype to race in the IMSA; In 1977 due to special rule made by Bill France for the Daytona 24 hours.

 

 

To show how odd U.S. racing was in the seventies, the World Sports Car Champioship ran in conjunction with the SCCA Trans-Am from 1974 to 1980, including full on prototypes early on, at the Six Hours of Watkins Glen.

A car like this finished first at the 1975 Watkins Glen Six Hour:

 

Last true prototype to run in a sanctioned U.S. race till Inaltera ran at the 1977 24 Hours of Daytona.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 14 March 2024 - 00:08.

[Collombin]

Group 7 was not for prototypes, it was for purpose-built two-seat race cars such as the cars which had been running in SCCA's USRRC and USAC's road racing series for full-fender cars. The FIA "prototype" designation contained rules for luggage space and spare tires, due to Group 6's definition of "prototype" meaning a possible even if far-fetched road-going version of a car meeting the rules. Group 7 had no such requirements and were considered "sports/racing" cars, more or less, due to two seats and full bodywork.

Looking through some of the Appendix J files on the FIA website (eg 1970), anyone know why the engine capacity limits of that time (eg 3 litres for prototypes, 5 litres for sportscars) do not seem to be mentioned? The limits for F1, F2 etc are covered.

Is it because the prototype/sportscar capacity limits were specific to individual championships rather than the group as a whole? Are they therefore mentioned elsewhere in the FIA Yellow Books?

[NCB619]

Looking through some of the Appendix J files on the FIA website (eg 1970), anyone know why the engine capacity limits of that time (eg 3 litres for prototypes, 5 litres for sportscars) do not seem to be mentioned? The limits for F1, F2 etc are covered.

Is it because the prototype/sportscar capacity limits were specific to individual championships rather than the group as a whole? Are they therefore mentioned elsewhere in the FIA Yellow Books?

Yes, I believe they were imposed by individual races / championships 

 

 

Just going back a few posts : I've taken the advice to have the two (Europe - based purely off Le Mans classes/categories, and USA - Mostly following the IMSA categories, but adding in Grand-Am 2000-2013, Can-Am 1966-1974, SCCA NSCC 1951-1965, and USRRC 1963-1968 + 1998-1999) separate lineages marked. 

 

Link is the same to view, but essentially what I've done (in the two extra tabs) is chart every category that competed. If there's overlaps of categories, I've split them up (eg, there's a year or two where Group 6 and Group C ran concurrently, even though essentially Group C supercedes Group 6) and then will line up those later on. (so if you do view, that's why the first tab is completely empty)

If it's something that is just a name change (LMP900 to LMP1, or LMGT to GTE) I have kept in the same category. I think the only one I have to properly split up into the displacement limits are the Production and Modified categories from the 1954-1965 NSCC, and GTO/GTU categories I need to split and adjust where the Over/Under displacement limits changed years (similar to how I've done so on the Le Mans side of things)

 

Edited by NCB619, 15 March 2024 - 12:00.