11 replies to this topic

[mariner]

Ron Savers 410 CI sprint engines can put out 800 - 900 bhp , the same as an F1 PU.

 

Al with no electronics 

 

 

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[desmo]

Yep, current F1 powertrains are ridiculously overcomplicates/expensive for their output.

[Nathan]

Now, to make them last 4000 miles.

[cbo]

Can they make 800+ horsepower with a 100 kg/h fuelflow limit?

[gruntguru]

More like 400 kg/h.

It is methanol though, so maybe 200 on gas. Halve it again and you're there!

[mariner]

As they use a plant based sustainable fuel - methanol - the consumption doesn't matter in sustainability  terms.

 

You can argue some of it might be from a potential food source etc. but within most road cars using E85 in USA or E10 in Europe that's a minor issue .

[Wuzak]

As they use a plant based sustainable fuel - methanol - the consumption doesn't matter in sustainability  terms.

 

You can argue some of it might be from a potential food source etc. but within most road cars using E85 in USA or E10 in Europe that's a minor issue .

 

Do "most cars in the USA" use E85?

 

Or do most use low octane petrol/gas? As I understand it, E85 is not available in many places.

 

And halving the efficiency of a fleet of ethanol fuelled cars means that twice the fuel has to be produced, and twice the amount of source material has to be grown.

[Wuzak]

Alcohol fuelled Grand Prix cars from Mercedes and Auto Union in 1937 matched or exceeded the power of the 2026 F1 ICE.

 

Should we use them instead?

[mariner]

My original post was mainly toungue in cheek but there was a serious point that since 2014 and hybrids the FIA and the teams have set out to make the most complex PU's  possible whilst never wanting more than 800 bhp. 

 

It is obviuosly driven by the desire to move away from fossil fuels , both to be seen as green and to keep the OEM's money in the game.

 

 

The  World Rally Championship went hybrid but has now been forced to abandon that route as not even OEM's want to spend on hybrid's in rallying. 

[Greg Locock]

OEMs have zero real interest in F1 or WRC for research. Fanbois might like to think otherwise but Race on Sunday sell on Monday is marketing, not engineering.

[Wuzak]

My original post was mainly toungue in cheek but there was a serious point that since 2014 and hybrids the FIA and the teams have set out to make the most complex PU's  possible whilst never wanting more than 800 bhp. 

 

It is obviuosly driven by the desire to move away from fossil fuels , both to be seen as green and to keep the OEM's money in the game.

 

There are many engines that could satisfy the power output requirements of an F1 PU without the complexity.

 

The engines used in Indycar, for example, could probably be tuned up to ~ 1,000hp without the need for ERS.

 

The 2014 rules were not "driven by the desire to move away from fossil fuels", but rather a desire to reduce fuel usage.

 

The original aim was an overall output (ICE + ERS) matching  the old V8s + KERS - around 800-850hp all up. Or around 650-700hp from the ICE.

 

What has happened Pus are making ~1,000hp, possibly more,

 

The 2026 regulations are a move to "simplify" the PU and move away from fossil fuels.

 

The complex part with the 2026 PUs will be, I suspect, managing the energy in the ERS. 

[cbo]

As they use a plant based sustainable fuel - methanol - the consumption doesn't matter in sustainability terms.

You can argue some of it might be from a potential food source etc. but within most road cars using E85 in USA or E10 in Europe that's a minor issue .

It matters to F1, as fuel consumption is part of the 2026 rules 🙂

If the proposed engine does follow the rules, it is a non starter.