62 replies to this topic

[Jakechapman]

Hello my name is jake and one question whatsbthe vest english racing autombile

[Jakechapman]

Excuse me whats the best English racing Automobile .

[sabrejet]

R4D would be my suggestion: latest state of development; longest race history, arguably the most successful of the breed. And it looks gorgeous too.

[Tim Murray]

The one I’d most like to own would be Remus (R5B).

[Michael Ferner]

I'd like to put in a vote for the G-type. A bit lacking in the looks department, but engineering-wise a bold leap, if doomed. Being more than a decade younger than all of its siblings, surely it must have been the 'best' in terms of engineering and performance!?

[Charlieman]

You'd have thought that the G-type would be more advanced, but with its proprietary engine and conventional German-style chassis design, I find it uninspiring. The E-type ('GP car') was more of a toolroom design although like many Bourne-inspirations, it took 40 years to get it working properly.

[FlyingSaucer]

The one I’d most like to own would be Remus (R5B).

 

Ye, those B-types were real monsters on track, especially in club meetings. 

 

I think the best testament of ERA's Type-Bs quality is that they raced before and after the war, with a decent level of competitiveness.

[Steve L]

Which achieved the greatest success pre war in the major international races?

Was it R3A with the Works and Charlie Martin, or maybe R2B with Prince Bira?

[MarkBisset]

R10B for me.

 

Peter Whitehead's weapon of war used to win the 1938 Australian Grand Prix and Hillclimb Championships at Mount Panorama, Bathurst, and Rob Roy in outer Melbourne respectively.

 

m

[fuzzi]

R11B for me. Sensibly developed and very close in performance to R4D without the surprises. 

[Sterzo]

R11B for me. Sensibly developed and very close in performance to R4D without the surprises. 

And the star of a brilliant book by Peter Hull, which I recently re-read for the 99th time.

[Michael Ferner]

Any celebrations planned for the 100th? 

[milestone 11]

Any B series. Not that I own one but I do have this.

 

[SteveJones]

R11B for me. Sensibly developed and very close in performance to R4D without the surprises. 

Agreed Julian. R4D is amazing - but.......!!

 

Steve

[DCapps]

Were the ERA really that good or simply a matter of green-tinted glasses and nostalgia?

 

I have often wondered about that notion, especially within the context that the UK/GB, with the possible exception of Le Mans -- which was an entirely different proposition -- was scarcely a blip on the motor sport scene.

 

Certainly fascinating and interesting, to say the least, as well as being a good story for schoolboys (this one included...), of course.

[Doug Nye]

It was, and within a certain community it remains, perfectly natural that ERA should occupy such a special place within British enthusiasts' hearts.

 

From 1934 the marque was brilliantly self-promoted by Raymond Mays, who was almost unchallengeably the greatest British motor sporting marketing man of that era.  His first-hand audience, an eager specialist press - had long been aching to find some kind of home-team success story to latch upon - and once he provided it, so they spread the gospel for him.  And the legend, the love, of ERA just took root here.

 

Merely one or two years of pre-war Maserati-toppling success set the image in concrete, and postwar the cars' extraordinarily active later lives perpetuated their fame - not least donkey's years of hyper-active VSCC and historic racing.  Perhaps we Brits have always had a soft spot for anything which looks understated, or quaint, yet which still packs competitive performance - the Old English Upright ERA certainly has done that, as indeed in sports car terms did (and does) the Frazer Nash Le Mans Replica...

 

So more myth than substance?  Maybe.  But still very, very special - and in my view something of which we can remain justifiably proud - so long as we also maintain proper perspective.  Reality need not always come as a shock.  

 

PS - which, while we're at it, also of course applies to Brooklands.  

 

DCN

[Vitesse2]

I was thinking very much along the same lines, Doug. While ERAs were almost all-conquering within the British Isles up to 1939 - only Seaman's Delage and (in handicaps) the works Austins regularly had their measure - they were never fully tested against the best the continent could offer. Neither the works cars nor the White Mouse team ever ventured south of the Alps, while the best Maseratis were seldom seen north of them.

 

ERA's last pre-WW2 win in Europe was at Péronne in 1938 when Mays beat a fairly mediocre field; Bira had beaten Villoresi at Cork earlier that year, but I think it's fair to say that ERA was pretty much a busted flush in international racing after 1937. The next ERA wins in Europe would come in 1946 - Leslie Brooke at Chimay and in a hillclimb in Luxembourg a couple of days later.

 

Remarkably, the biggest ever gathering of ERAs in Europe was also in 1946 - seven of them were at Geneva, the race when it seems to have finally dawned on British enthusiasts that ERA was no longer a power in racing ...

[elansprint72]

Nobody going to nominate those Minis with an ERA badge then? 😀

[GazChed]

Nobody going to nominate those Minis with an ERA badge then? 😀

...not to mention the ERA HSS an imitation 1960's single seater powered by an 1800 cc Zetec engine ( why not just make a Zetec engined Formula Ford ? ) or the ERA 30 a sportscar inspired by the Lotus 23.

[dgs]

R11B for me. Sensibly developed and very close in performance to R4D without the surprises. 

Agree with Julian, R11B. Not seen often these days (Goodwood only)

One of the few ERA's to have taken part in European Hlilclimbs (pre-war Reggie Tongue and post was Ken Wharton).

Also driven by four Grand Prix drivers post was in British hill climbs and sprints.( Duncan Hamilton, Reg Parnell, Ken Wharton and Tony Marsh)

[Sterzo]

I don't think anyone would rank ERA amongst the great racing marques, BUT quite a few have been racing almost continuously since the thirties (wartime excepted). They look good, they sound great, the way they go is spectacular, and they have been the backbone of some terrific racing every year. I fell in love with ERAs in 1957 and have watched them race in most years since. Can't wait for April Silverstone for another bout of arms-and-elbows racing.

[Doug Nye]

Well said.  

 

DCN

[jimturner]

I was rather put off this thread initially by the somewhat illiterate first post.

But it has grown on me…..

 

As both TNF moderators have made contributions it clearly fits within the current TNF’s ‘approach’ to motor racing history.

And Doug’s masterly contribution is the icing on the cake.

 

Turning to the question posed, statistically there is no doubt that R4B/C/D was the most successful ERA.

Its long history is beautifully summarised in Mac Hulbert’s book published a few years ago.

 

Another, later, candidate could be R14B, as raced by Johnnie Wakefield and then Bob Gerard, whose wins to appearances ratio is impressively high.

[jimgraftonhscc]

I was thinking very much along the same lines, Doug. While ERAs were almost all-conquering within the British Isles up to 1939 - only Seaman's Delage and (in handicaps) the works Austins regularly had their measure - they were never fully tested against the best the continent could offer. Neither the works cars nor the White Mouse team ever ventured south of the Alps, while the best Maseratis were seldom seen north of them.

 

ERA's last pre-WW2 win in Europe was at Péronne in 1938 when Mays beat a fairly mediocre field; Bira had beaten Villoresi at Cork earlier that year, but I think it's fair to say that ERA was pretty much a busted flush in international racing after 1937. The next ERA wins in Europe would come in 1946 - Leslie Brooke at Chimay and in a hillclimb in Luxembourg a couple of days later.

 

Remarkably, the biggest ever gathering of ERAs in Europe was also in 1946 - seven of them were at Geneva, the race when it seems to have finally dawned on British enthusiasts that ERA was no longer a power in racing ...

Unfortunately your statement above regarding Geneva 1946 being the ‘biggest ever gathering of ERAs in Europe’ is incorrect.

The greatest number of ERAs was actually at the Grote Prijs van Zandvoort in August 1948 where nine cars were present at the meeting, with seven actually taking part in the race.

In addition Geneva 1946 was only one of three European meetings at which seven ERAs were present - the other two being at Peronne in June 1936, and at Bremgarten in August 1938.

[Jahn1234567890]

Unfortunately your statement above regarding Geneva 1946 being the ‘biggest ever gathering of ERAs in Europe’ is incorrect.

The greatest number of ERAs was actually at the Grote Prijs van Zandvoort in August 1948 where nine cars were present at the meeting, with seven actually taking part in the race.

In addition Geneva 1946 was only one of three European meetings at which seven ERAs were present - the other two being at Peronne in June 1936, and at Bremgarten in August 1938.

 

While you are technically correct regarding Zandvoort it was basically a British event. The event was organised by the B.R.D.C. and run as a 'National' meeting only open to British licence holders. In effect it was a National event held on the European mainland.

[sabrejet]

This thread reminded me of a discussion I had several years ago with Donald Day, who'd lost an arm after an awful accident at Silverstone aboard R14B (July 1995?). The way Donald told it, the car had rolled on top of him and smashed his right arm; the car was thereafter modified to allow Donald to continue driving it, albeit with one arm now amputated.

 

Not mentioned at the time but apparently true, it wasn't the the 'smashed' right arm which had been amputated but his left, which had been found cancerous when he'd been admitted to hospital after the crash. I can understand Donald not going into that detail when I spoke to him, but I'm wondering if the tale is correct? 

[Sterzo]

^ One of the most awful accident's I've witnessed - with my then young son. It was the end of a handicap race, and Donald's ERA was launched over a wheel of a Morgan 3-wheeler. He was thrown forwards along the bonnet of the car, which then overturned with him underneath, before it rolled away from him. The ERA then caught fire but a quick-acting marshall ran in close to extinguish it. From memory, I think he later appeared at sprints with the car - a terrific follow-up. R14B had of course belonged to his father, Sid Day.

[fuzzi]

Just for the record: I'm afraid that Sid and Donald were not related and Sid was driving R6B (1958 -1977) during the same period as Donald was driving R14B 1958-2015). Donald was a serving Navy officer for the early part of his ownership and even managed to take the car with him aboard ship. 

Edited by fuzzi, 30 March 2024 - 06:24.

[cooper997]

Published entry list for the previously mentioned Zandvoort meeting...

 

7 August, 1948 Prijs van Zandvoort Internationale Autoraces

1 G E Abecassis Alta

2 G E Ansell ERA

3 A A Baring Maserati

4 K W Bear Bugatti

5 J V Bolster ERA

6 F R Gerard ERA

7 T C Harrison ERA

8 K Hutchison Alfa Romeo

9 R Parnell Maserati

10 A P R Rolt Alfa Romeo

11 R E Ansell Maserati

12 B Bira Maserati

14 H L Brooke ERA

15 D A Hampshire ERA

16 L G Johnson ERA

17 D Hamilton ERA

18 F Ashmore Maserati of (or) ERA

19 R F Salvadori Alfa Romeo

20 G M Watson Alta

21 P B C Walker ERA

 

 

Stephen

Edited by cooper997, 30 March 2024 - 07:03.

[Allan Lupton]

Just for the record: I'm afraid that Sid and Donald were not related and Sid was driving R6B (1958 -1977) during the same period as Donald was driving R14B 1958-2015). Donald was a serving Navy officer for the early part of his ownership and even managed to take the car with him aboard ship. 

Sid was a builder and only raced when he'd built up enough funds. His record for a given year should show that he either raced in every event or did not race at all.

He came to our local pub meeting in the 1970s which is where I met him.

[Roger Clark]

 Neither the works cars nor the White Mouse team ever ventured south of the Alps, while the best Maseratis were seldom seen north of them.

 

 

Didn't Bira race in Turin and Naples in 1937?  He also raced and won in Monaco which I think is south of the Alps.  

[Sterzo]

Just for the record: I'm afraid that Sid and Donald were not related and Sid was driving R6B (1958 -1977) during the same period as Donald was driving R14B 1958-2015). Donald was a serving Navy officer for the early part of his ownership and even managed to take the car with him aboard ship. 

Thank you for the correction - I believed they were father and son for nearly 60 years!

[Jahn1234567890]

Published entry list for the previously mentioned Zandvoort meeting...

 

7 August, 1948 Prijs van Zandvoort Internationale Autoraces

1 G E Abecassis Alta

2 G E Ansell ERA

3 A A Baring Maserati

4 K W Bear Bugatti

5 J V Bolster ERA

6 F R Gerard ERA

7 T C Harrison ERA

8 K Hutchison Alfa Romeo

9 R Parnell Maserati

10 A P R Rolt Alfa Romeo

11 R E Ansell Maserati

12 B Bira Maserati

14 H L Brooke ERA

15 D A Hampshire ERA

16 L G Johnson ERA

17 D Hamilton ERA

18 F Ashmore Maserati of (or) ERA

19 R F Salvadori Alfa Romeo

20 G M Watson Alta

21 P B C Walker ERA

 

 

Stephen

 

I am being a bit pedantic here, but a few corrections regarding the cars listed in the entry list to the ones which actually appeared.

 

Ashmore drove ERA R2A, since he drove for Reg Parnell the only available Maserati at this point would have been 4CL 1569 which was driven by Reg himself at this event.

 

Fred Ashmore on the left of ERA R2A in the paddock at Zandvoort.

 

Roy Salvadori entered both his Alfa Romeo Tipo B [s/n 50005] and his Maserati 4CM [s/n 1521]. While he did practice his Alfa Salvadori ended up driving the Maserati in his Heat race.

 

Salvadori's Tipo B with issues in practice.

 

Salvadori in 4CM 1521 in the second Heat where he failed to finish.

[cooper997]

Pedantic is good. Rare treat these days on TNF.

 

Without swerving too far off topic, as many will already know ex Salvadori Maserati came to Australia with David Chambers. Then to Tom Sulman soon after, who gets quoted in Graham Howard's 1980 SCW feature as "A bitch of a car." 

 

 

Stephen

[cooper997]

Here's how Motor Sport reported the Zandvoort races.

 

 

 

Stephen

[jimgraftonhscc]

Neither the works cars nor the White Mouse team ever ventured south of the Alps, while the best Maseratis were seldom seen north of them.

A further correction to the above statement

The ERA Works cars raced at Monaco in 1936 (Mays and Lehoux), and at Albi for four consecutive years (1936 Lehoux, 1937 & 38 Mays and 1939 Dobson).

These locations are both ‘south of the Alps’…….

 

This is in addition to the correction pointed out by Roger Clark regarding the White Mouse team cars.

Edited by jimgraftonhscc, 28 October 2024 - 12:15.

[Steve L]

Those photos are absolutely super - are there any more from the same source, please?! 

[Jahn1234567890]

Those photos are absolutely super - are there any more from the same source, please?! 

 I have sent you a PM.

[Steve L]

 I have sent you a PM.

 

Replied, thanks  !

[cooper997]

Sammy Davis'Zandvoort report from The Autocar

 

 

 

 

 

 

Courtesy of Fawkner Motoring Library bound copy (alas I should have tried to photograph better)

 

 

Stephen

[robert dick]

From
"Dr. Kinsey on Motor Racing"
by Raymond Groves
Autosport, December 18, 1953

"While it is commonly agreed that ships are feminine whether they be mud dredgers or transatlantic liners, the gender of racing cars is by no means so certain.
[...]
The A, B and C Type E.R.A.s always seemed the perfect examples of the feminine species, especially in their later years when they scuttled round the circuits rather like indomitable elderly British ladies who refused to allow their age and infirmities to prevent them from joining in the young things' fun and games.
They kept up with all the latest developments, even in one case, experimenting with two-stage blowers, which must have been the equivalent to a human taking an oversose of hormones, monkey glands and Epsom Salts rolled into one.
Typically feminine, one even appeared with a new line in radiator cowls - it was, of course, much too young for her and made her look like a spinster of 70 in a gym slip, but her spirit was unquenchable.

The E Type E.R.A. was even more typically feminine in quite a different way. She was the mysterious, unpredictable female about whom so many thousands of novels have been written. But, like so many of her kind, she overdid it. Just when she had been petted and coaxed into behaving in a reasonalbe manner, she would throw a temperament and go and sulk in the pits.
At first it had the desired effect. Everyone was vastly intrigued and she basked in that kind of high-powered limelight that surrounds film stars who shut the door on reporters and refuse to discuss their matrimonial arrangements.
Then one day she found she had gone too far and gone on too long and nobody really cared any more. Nevertheless she went out in a blaze of glory and pyrotechnics, thereby confirming the sages who had predicted a future of eternal flames for her.

The B.R.M. began by using the same technique, but, warned by her press agents, varied the monotony by behaving sweetly on occasions, and being the possessor of a voice that would - and probably did - lift the roof of the Albert Hall, much has been forgiven."
 

[Jakechapman]

What use is c type suspension these days

[Lola5000]

For me favourite ERA is R.5.B.

 

I treasure that book "The History of English Racing Automobiles Limited " by David Weguelin.

 

Being  the 1st expensive books I bought in 1980 for $125 Aus .

[john aston]

R12 B - because a very distant relation raced it . The late Jimmy Somervail - a lovely man whom I only got to know in his old age.  

[Jakechapman]

Can I just say your responses have been amazing I'm very shocked that so many people have replied

[Jakechapman]

After all this only r4d , Remus and pretty much my favourites, Steve got it with r3a for my favourite car but I know the best is r2a by a long shot because that car is not only how my grandad looped pardon for fun and the trophy still stands today but gillies lapped faster than r3a in that car until it blew up around GOODWOOD...

[Jakechapman]

Has everyone given up

[mariner]

I am not much into ERA's but I would ( tongue in cheek) say the one Jim Clark drove as it must have been the quickest !

[dgs]

I am not much into ERA's but I would ( tongue in cheek) say the one Jim Clark drove as it must have been the quickest !

Yes it was the quickest at Rouen-les-Essarts (28-06-1964)  at French Grand Prix weekend, where it was entered in GP de l'Age d/Rouen-les-Essarts..

Jim Clark practiced Hon Patrick Lindsay  (ERA R5B) where he, after two flying laps was timed at 2min 48.7 sec, that was 3.3 sec faster than Patrick Lindsay managed (2min 52 sec) 

[Tim Murray]

To be fair to Patrick Lindsay, his son Ludovic has stated that Patrick had never driven at Rouen before, and had not done that many laps before Jim had his run. My understanding, as dgs said, is that Jim’s best lap was 2 min 48.7 sec. Patrick then managed 2 min 51 sec later in practice, and in the race itself he got down to 2 min 50 sec. So while Jim’s achievement in the car was extraordinary, he knew Rouen well, while Patrick was obviously still on a learning curve right up to the race.