41 replies to this topic

[AlexS]

Could have had  seriously hurt some mechanics in pit lane. Any solution?

 

Forbid cars with brake fires to not go to pits?  But the danger might just moved to the marshals area, still an area with less person density with be less worse  Change brakes designs?  Instructions of never being in "front" of a brake axle on fire?

 

[Carl42]

I think it was the tire that blew

[CrushedDreams]

Racing brings a certain degree of danger, even in the pit lane.

[FLB]

These are photos that are making the rounds on an Italian blog. No idea of the original source.

 

Adesso a Sainz togliete la cistifellea (quotidiano.net)

 

 

Edited by FLB, 24 March 2024 - 22:26.

[BoDarvelle]

Could have had  seriously hurt some mechanics in pit lane. Any solution?

 

Forbid cars with brake fires to not go to pits?  But the danger might just moved to the marshals area, still an area with less person density with be less worse  Change brakes designs?  Instructions of never being in "front" of a brake axle on fire?

 

 

Yes, the answer is always more rules.

 

/s

[pdac]

Racing brings a certain degree of danger, even in the pit lane.

 

Yes, but the goal should always be to eliminate or, at least minimise, the danger as much as is possible. Now that we've all been given an example of a possible danger that might not have been appreciated before, there's no reason to not act.

[RacingFan10]

Ehm... Let's ban brakes so they can no longer explode. 

[PayasYouRace]

Could have had  seriously hurt some mechanics in pit lane. Any solution?

 

Forbid cars with brake fires to not go to pits?  But the danger might just moved to the marshals area, still an area with less person density with be less worse  Change brakes designs?  Instructions of never being in "front" of a brake axle on fire?

I guess you should start by breaking down what the risks are.

 

What was the kinetic effect of the exploding brake unit?

 

Could it have hurt a mechanic in the pit lane?

 

Should mechanics be in the pit lane if they’re not working on a car?

 

Are mechanics trained to deal with pit lane fires? (I think they are) This includes how to approach a hazard in the safest possible way.

 

Are marshals trained in how to handle brake fires?

 

Thats just what I’ve thought of in as long as it takes to type it.

[CrushedDreams]

Yes, but the goal should always be to eliminate or, at least minimise, the danger as much as is possible. Now that we've all been given an example of a possible danger that might not have been appreciated before, there's no reason to not act.

Or play paddy cake.

Edited by CrushedDreams, 24 March 2024 - 23:31.

[Nathan]

I'd sooner a carbon disc turn to dust and lightweight shrapnel than see a metal disc let go... 

 

Ultimate car brake test video (Explosion!) - YouTube

 

But if one wants to see the risk to mechanics, go back and watch the cars entering the pits after the race at a slow speed and try and find any marking on the painted pit wall.  I'm pretty sure I narrowed down where it let go and can't see anything from onboards.  If it's a projectile danger to mechanics in Kevlar suits Id have thought the paint would wear the scars.

Edited by Nathan, 24 March 2024 - 23:46.

[GreenMachine]

I think it was rubber dust/residue/fragments from the tyre, the buildup of pressure from the heated carcass leading to its failure. IIRC the car sagged immediately the cloud appeared. 

 

Don't know what else would have 'exploded like that, if not the tyre.  The disks are heavily perforated, and might disintegrate, but explode?  Possibly a sealed wheel bearing bursting from the heat, but that looked more like a dust cloud to me.  Pressure inside the caliper would presumably be vented back to the master cylinder, might burn but not explode.

[Alfisti]

[Deeq]

|^^ very funny 😀

[RekF1]

Could have had  seriously hurt some mechanics in pit lane. Any solution?
 
Forbid cars with brake fires to not go to pits?  But the danger might just moved to the marshals area, still an area with less person density with be less worse  Change brakes designs?  Instructions of never being in "front" of a brake axle on fire?

SAudi-bur were investigated for a rogue wheel nut. That was a violent, unexpected failure.

[Primo]

Could have had  seriously hurt some mechanics in pit lane. Any solution?

 

Forbid cars with brake fires to not go to pits?  But the danger might just moved to the marshals area, still an area with less person density with be less worse  Change brakes designs?  Instructions of never being in "front" of a brake axle on fire?

What more can possibly explode?

[RekF1]

I'd sooner a carbon disc turn to dust and lightweight shrapnel than see a metal disc let go... 
 

Ultimate car brake test video (Explosion!) - YouTube
 

But if one wants to see the risk to mechanics, go back and watch the cars entering the pits after the race at a slow speed and try and find any marking on the painted pit wall.  I'm pretty sure I narrowed down where it let go and can't see anything from onboards.  If it's a projectile danger to mechanics in Kevlar suits Id have thought the paint would wear the scars.

It's still important to understand the how. If that happens next to another driver, etc.

[AncientLurker]

I’m more interested in why it caught fire so badly and what trick RB are doing with their brakes to make them so fast in the corners.

[baddog]

I'm pretty sure its the disc, as that is a solid lump of carbon, so explodes into dust like that.

[RekF1]

I’m more interested in why it caught fire so badly and what trick RB are doing with their brakes to make them so fast in the corners.

are you suggesting they're manipulating BBW in some way to manufacture TC in high speed braking zones?

[ingegnere]

Disc looks intact in the pic above, probably because it’s meant to operate at high temps.

Looks like possibly the ‘cake tin’ (or something around it or in it) enveloping the brakes—which is sealed and meant to manage break cooling—exploded and blew off the wheel cover.

Edited by ingegnere, 25 March 2024 - 10:57.

[SenorSjon]

Before he entered the pits, another piece was thrown of the car. It stayed in the 2nd to last corner for the whole race. Was that the wheel cover?

[PlatenGlass]

Disc looks intact in the pic above, probably because it’s meant to operate at high temps.

Looks like possibly the ‘cake tin’ (or something around it or in it) enveloping the brakes—which is sealed and meant to manage break cooling—exploded and blew off the wheel cover.

You could have a rule where you have to put a cake in the cake tin at the start of the race and if it gets burnt to the point of inedibility it's a disqualification. It would be a bit like the plank rule.

[Autodromo]

It might be sensible, however, to have a special horn for when a wounded car is entering the pits (different from the normal horn they blow - or whatever that audible signal is).  Or even if there is an incident in the pits (like Grosjean on fire in Canada a few years ago).  Cars coming in on fire, with bodywork that may fly off, or even flat tires where the cords can flail around and eject bits of body work.  Seems like it would be sensible to have an extra "heads up" to those in the pit lane when something is happening (if they don't already).

[Stephane]

They are already supposed to be in the box unless their car is in the pitlane or about to.

[azza200]

The brake explosion could of happened anywhere on the track it just happened to take place in the pit lane entry 

[Sterzo]

What more can possibly explode?

Forums.

[bibliophagos]

I'm quite sure it was the tire that exploded. As a kid I was on a daytrip with the family, when the breakdisc of one of the front wheels caught fire. When the driver tried to put it out with a fire extinguisher, it violently exploded. My brother and I, as the nosy kids we were, were looking at the scene quite close to the front wheel, and we were both thrown away by the explosion, with my brother ending up in hospital. That was 40 years ago, and we weren't exactly dressed like the mechanics in the pitlane, but yes, an exploding tire can be quite dangerous.

[Risil]

What more can possibly explode?

That word again

[B Squared]

How many contributing to this subject have ever even been on a hot pit lane for Formula 1 or Indy Car? I've been on plenty of hot pit lanes for the Indy Car series over the years and if you're going to venture into that type of territory, you better be mentally prepared for anything to happen and keep a constant vigil for the unexpected.

And you do not have to only deal with this type of thing in pit lane. In the mid 80s, when I was working the back stretch black flag post for Indy Cars at Michigan, in practice Dale Coyne had a right front brake rotor let go has he approached us at full speed. It was like a bomb had went off, the right front corner of the car was gone. Dumb luck meant that none of the five of us on station were injured. There was zero warning, I'm not sure how you can prepare for something totally unexpected. But let's add more rules and regulations, that's always the ticket. How dare we let man or woman judge for themselves what they feel is an acceptable amount of risk.

[Ruusperi]

Remember this from Bahrain tests?

[Primo]

That word again

Point is: There's a lot of bad **** that can happen with a racing car that can be dangerous for people in the pitlane. 

[Bloggsworth]

Well, it did mean that we didn't have to wait 45 seconds for the driver in second place to arrive...

[PayasYouRace]

How dare we let man or woman judge for themselves what they feel is an acceptable amount of risk.

Just want to pick this out. People are statistically very bad at judging their own safety, which is why we have rules, regulations, procedures, etc. in dangerous environments.

This is why you assess risk, and then take appropriate measures to mitigate those risks. Sometimes it involves more restrictive rules. Sometimes it involves increased training. It never involves “let people judge for themselves”, because statistically they can’t.

Hence my first reaction in this thread was asking the kinds of questions that should be asked in this case. No overaction. No “nothing to see here”.

(I should know. I’ve worked in one of those “most dangerous” workplaces you see on online listicles.)

[B Squared]

I understand what you're saying, but no matter how much you plan, training offered, and committees you form, it still comes down to individual choice and making your own decision on risk. If you don't feel comfortable in any environment, you shouldn't be participating in that activity. Most people that die don't start with that marked on their itinerary for the day.

[Myrvold]

Just want to pick this out. People are statistically very bad at judging their own safety, which is why we have rules, regulations, procedures, etc. in dangerous environments.

 

As a huge rally-guy... this is sadly very true. And is proven multiple times each year in rallies. Even last weekend sadly.

[CharlesWinstone]

Could have had seriously hurt some mechanics in pit lane. Any solution?

Forbid cars with brake fires to not go to pits? But the danger might just moved to the marshals area, still an area with less person density with be less worse Change brakes designs? Instructions of never being in "front" of a brake axle on fire?

Remove all people from the pitlane.

Edited by CharlesWinstone, 25 March 2024 - 21:58.

[Primo]

You could have a rule where you have to put a cake in the cake tin at the start of the race and if it gets burnt to the point of inedibility it's a disqualification. It would be a bit like the plank rule.

You mean that the proof is in the pudding?

[Spillage]

Yeah, I was a bit concerned by that and the general idea of drivers bringing a car that's on fire into the pit lane. Surely it's better to park it near a marshal post?

[krapmeister]

It's still important to understand the how. If that happens next to another driver, etc.

The-Race's review podcast of the AusGP said it sounded like it was a mistake on the teams behalf - likely something wasn't removed/fitted properly before the race - rather than any inherent issue with the brakes.

Edited by krapmeister, 25 March 2024 - 22:32.

[balmybaldwin]

I would think the one of the hardest braking spot on some tracks is the pitlane entry as they rarely brake down to pitlane speeds on track.  Therefore, it would most likely go at the point it did if it is going to go in the pit lane, just before the limit line where on most tracks there is no people and lined with concrete or techpro. The actual stop in the box is "only" braking from pitlane speed to zero and usually coasted if known brake issues, so probably relatively low chance of it going off next to a mechanic (although as we saw with that williams blasting it with a extinguisher once its in the box could have undesired effects but by then mechs are usually away from the car)

Edited by balmybaldwin, 25 March 2024 - 22:48.

[ARTGP]

 
This picture from the pitlane shows that Verstappens brake didn't explode so the thread title is probably a little bit misleading. The brake rotor is visible and it's completely intact. 

 

Craig Scarborough thinks what we saw was the tire releasing air rapidly because the high temperature would have increased the tire pressure and caused wheel/tire failure and rapid release of air.
Craig Scarborough on X: "The heat from the brake being constantly on, set the brake duct on fire. However, the brake disc did not explode when entering the pits. As the disc was still visible & intact in the pits. The blast was probably the wheel/tyre failing releasing the air & blowing debris everywhere https://t.co/J7nXKRG5ra" / X (twitter.com)

Edited by ARTGP, 26 March 2024 - 00:47.

[Jazza]

But the tyre looked fully inflated. It didn’t appear to be flat from releasing all of its pressure.

Assuming it wasn’t the tyre, another possibility is the brake fluid. It may have erupted in a steam explosion in the cake tin blowing all the dust from the pad out.

It wouldn’t even take that much pressure to blow dust out a meter or so. Even the air guns used to make a large cloud of dust from changing the wheel. If the brake hose just let go with boiling fluid inside, it would certainly spray everywhere and carry a lot of built up dust with it.

Edited by Jazza, 26 March 2024 - 02:52.