32 replies to this topic

[Gilles126c]

So just wondered if anyone else has heard this regarding the cause of the accident at Zolder in 1982.

A stuck throttle !

The wife of Gaston Parent who was Villeneuve's manager (he has since passed way) has revealed in a interview that Gaston signed a confidentiality document with Enzo Ferrari concerning the true causes of the accident, as well as an agreement not to pursue legal action in order to obtain financial benefits for Gilles' family.

Apparently a stuck throttle was found as a cause of the accident as well as a seatbelt plate was found to have not been fitted or fitted incorrectly.

Edited by Gilles126c, 09 April 2024 - 06:50.

[E1pix]

Oh My, knowing the video that makes perfect sense!

(presuming it’s true)

[Doug Nye]

I always understood that in any case Gilles operated his cars with a pathologically stuck throttle as standard while relying upon his extraordinarily highly tuned reflexes to control the outcome in every corner he then encountered.  

 

The mechanicals and trajectory of his final collision with poor Jochen Mass's car were endlessly studied and analysed at and around the time.  

 

I have never seen nor heard substantial evidence of a stuck throttle - other than 'as applied' by the driver option just outlined.  Certainly car designer Doc Postlethwaite never suggested any such thing to me, and we discussed the incident at considerable length.  In contrast he was very regretful that the immense impact forces to which the somersaulting car became subject had so far exceeded what had previously been considered maximum likely structural limits.  

 

Impacting at very high speed, from height, nose first into soft sand, where the car's front end was momentarily trapped, triggered an inertial whip effect as the engine/gearbox's massive momentum hurled it forward. Forces applied then simply tore the seat-back bulkhead and its seat-belt anchorages out of the tub - with the tragic result self evident.

 

DCN

[guiporsche]

Incidentally, Doug, and we all know that you have plenty on your hands, but if there's anyone who could write a beautiful and insightful biography of Harvey Postlethwaite, it would be you! 

[chr1s]

Surely a driver of Villeneuves' caliber and reflexes would have got to the kill switch or got his foot on the clutch in that split second?

[AnttiK]

The wife of Gaston Parent who was Villeneuve's manager (he has since passed way) has revealed in a interview that Gaston signed a confidentiality document with Enzo Ferrari concerning the true causes of the accident, as well as an agreement not to pursue legal action in order to obtain financial benefits for Gilles' family.

 

This part reminded me of another famous driver's death driving for an Italian constructor, the rally ace Henri Toivonen driving for Lancia in 1986. One year after his death, his widow revealed in an interview that Lancia refused to pay her Toivonen's unpaid wages, unless she signed a letter where she would promise never to blame Lancia for Toivonen's death. Over the years there have been various suspicions and theories that Toivonen's accident may have been caused by a mechanical failure.

Edited by AnttiK, 09 April 2024 - 14:20.

[pacificquay]

There are two different things at play here.

 

Cause of crash - driver error

 

Cause of death - construction of the car, but this was clearly within the norms of the time so could not be expected to be any different

 

The idea that 42 years on there could be any genuinely new information about an incident that has been discussed so much is very unlikely

[JacnGille]

Gilles was on a hot lap. Lifting/de-clutching/etc. was never an option. One seat belt plate incorrectly mounted would have done absolutely nothing to stop the entire seat bulkhead from separating from the rest of the chassis.

[Michael Ferner]

Lifting/de-clutching is always an option for anyone considering his life more important than that particular lap time. And whether it was a hot lap is up for discussion - Villeneuve himself repeatedly stated (and complained about) the then current type of qualifying tyres being good for only one fast lap, which he already done on that set. So, either he was lying, or he wasn't on a hot lap.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 09 April 2024 - 14:44.

[AnttiK]

whether it was a hot lap is up for discussion

 

The Belgian TV followed Villeneuve's last fateful lap live from the beginning and he was certainly on the limit everywhere prior to the accident. 

https://streamable.com/lqspmf

 

Also, to me it would make no sense to take chances when overtaking slower cars, if he wasn't on a hot lap. Then again, we are talking about Gilles, so I don't know.

[E1pix]

My impression is there was no such thing as a cool-off lap for Gilles.

Perfect opportunity to try something you think might not work, and risk a wasted hot lap in trying. And we are talking about a risky business, lest we forget, so it’s a bit rich for anyone to judge “acceptable risk” from our keyboards in a game full of peril.

Certainly the man didn’t want to die, nor devalue his own life by trying hard and doing things his own way. Sadly, the same has been conjectured since the beginning of time when one’s brilliant enough to forge their own paths — be it Villeneuve, or Reinhold Messner.

[nmansellfan]

Surely a driver of Villeneuves' caliber and reflexes would have got to the kill switch or got his foot on the clutch in that split second?

 

While not exactly the same as you suggest chr1s, I have read a post on TNF in the past where someone mentioned that Gilles did switch off the ignition, but while airborne.

 

From my point of view, even with the fairly unusual (for F1 pre-1990's) scenario of qualifying being broadcast / recorded for TV, and with the cameras being trained on the driver in question at the time of the shunt, we'll just never know for sure what exactly happened without telemetry (and even then it doesn't tell you everything without the thoughts of the driver as well).

[Sterzo]

And we are talking about a risky business, lest we forget

I think this statement says it all, really. Way back in the fifties, there was always some convoluted "explanation" for a fatality, be it Castellotti, Musso, Collins or Behra. Always made me queasy. The truth is, motor racing is dangerous, racing drivers push the limit, and the result can be dreadful.

[E1pix]

Let’s say the throttle *didn’t* stick. Mass moved right and left little space when approached on the ragged edge, and Villeneuve’s “dumping the clutch” while still heavily relying on bite would have sent the car straight off — as any driver of any race experience with rear-wheel drive knows. The car needs forward drive to maintain bite.

Let’s say the throttle *did* stick and momentarily delay or lengthen the start of intense braking. Hitting Mass would have just started a little sooner.

There was no available track for Villeneuve to use. Look again at the tape. He probably thought Mass would keep left, but I’d bet he simply couldn’t at that speed, at that point of the tire cycle, and instead did what he could do.

Mass himself lived with intense guilt for over a decade about putting himself in the path. From his view, slowing before the left turn would have stopped Villeneuve’s lap cold — if not having him rear-end Jochen. Only the forgiving graces of Gilles’ family gave Jochen the peace he so richly needed and deserved.

Racing incident, utterly terrible for Mass — and everything and everyone Villeneuve and Ferrari. Maybe Gilles thought Mass was going to be faster in the left and a window would open. Maybe if Mass had enough grip left in the tires he could have. No driver can know the grip left on another car. This same scenario has played out for a hundred-some years at racetracks, at every single race.

The difference here is timing simply went very wrong in a one-second window, and neither driver could possibly control it.

Perhaps if it happened to anyone other than Villeneuve, the dialog would be completely different.

[Nick Planas]

 

The Belgian TV followed Villeneuve's last fateful lap live from the beginning and he was certainly on the limit everywhere prior to the accident. 

https://streamable.com/lqspmf

 

Also, to me it would make no sense to take chances when overtaking slower cars, if he wasn't on a hot lap. Then again, we are talking about Gilles, so I don't know.

 

The engine sounds don't seem to match with the era...

[AnttiK]

The engine sounds don't seem to match with the era...

 

Yeah unfortunately the producers of the documentary decided to add some bad engine sound effects on the footage. The clip is taken from this documentary:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7975954/

[E1pix]

The engine sounds don't seem to match with the era...

Leave it to a seasoned guy of sound to *hear* what’s wrong. Spot on.

Haha, I was watching and thinking “Oh, there goes a Williams-Renault,” and “Hey, a Cosworth!” etc. :-)

[nmansellfan]

If the original audio was available, would it offer a clue as to if the stuck throttle theory was true?

[Gilles126c]

I do remember reading a eye witness stating the engine noise didn’t drop, also remember Jody Scheckter stating he threatened Ferrari to go public about the construction of the car before agreeing some financial settlement for the family.

[Rediscoveryx]

If the original audio was available, would it offer a clue as to if the stuck throttle theory was true?

The broadcasting standards were comparatively poor back in the 80’s. Microphones were usually not placed trackside, with engine noise mainly picked up when the cars speeded by the commentator’s booth. Opening laps usually consisted of an unbelievable noise at the start followed by dead silence (apart from the commentators rambling) for one and a half minute before the cars screamed by to drown out the commentators again at the start of lap two.

Which is a long-winded way of saying ”almost certainly not”.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 10 April 2024 - 16:28.

[AnttiK]

If the original audio was available, would it offer a clue as to if the stuck throttle theory was true?

 

Here's the accident footage from the documentary. This clip only contains the accident itself, I cut away the aftermath footage which is very tough to watch in places and I feel doesn't really add anything to this discussion.

 

https://streamable.com/qqbtfo

 

There's also some added engine sound effects on the accident footage, but I think the original audio can also be heard underneath. If you listen with headphones, I think you can faintly hear the Ferrari's engine revving at full throttle as it's flying through the air. But I don't personally think that is a proof of a stuck throttle, as I would expect the engine to be revving at that moment anyway, stuck throttle or not.

[William Hunt]

Incidentally, Doug, and we all know that you have plenty on your hands, but if there's anyone who could write a beautiful and insightful biography of Harvey Postlethwaite, it would be you! 

It's far too long since Doug wrote a Formula 1 book, I'll buy any book he writes about F1 again, several of my most precious books are from the likes of Doug Nye, Mike Lang, Karl Ludvigsen or Anthony Pritchard. (I am aware that Doug did a book on a Ferrari 250 for Porter Press, but that was not an F1 book).

I will promise this: I will do a handstand if Doug Nye writes another F1 themed book The prospect of a book on Harvey Postlethwaite by Doug would be mouth watering.

Edited by William Hunt, 10 April 2024 - 20:16.

[William Hunt]

The Belgian TV followed Villeneuve's last fateful lap live from the beginning and he was certainly on the limit everywhere prior to the accident. 

https://streamable.com/lqspmf

That's a scene from the Canvas documentary that was aired +-5-7 years ago, any chance of a link to the full documentary online? I would love to see that one again. They also did a superb documentary about the Onyx F1 team in F1 in 1989.

[john aston]

What's the point in speculating about an event which happened in a heartbeat 42 years - count 'em - ago?  We all saw the footage in period and I'v e no desire to watch it again - it is prurient and disrespectful. Is it the rise in true crime podcasts which is responsible ? Trouble is there no  'shock new evidence ' here , no conspiracy , nothing apart from the entirely foreseeable consequence of GV taking one risk  too many . He was not a man likely to draw his pension  and I dare say that was part of the appeal . He was undeniably wonderful to watch . 

 

But the throttle might as well have been stuck - from memory he was on one of his trademark banzai laps at a point where he'd have been accelerating anyway. 

 

There may have been an NDA - but what if there was ? It's none of my business . 

 

This sleeping dog should be left to slumber in peace, along with the one at Imola . 

[Gilles126c]

I disagree, the fact everyone just assumes it was just Gilles being Gilles and taking to big a risk because he was not in the right frame of mind because of Imola is a reason to bring up the events a long time afterwards, if new information comes to light.
Personally I have always thought Gilles was too good than to let something that happened two weeks before to effect his driving in Zolder, Gaston’s wife has no reason to lie neither does Gaston himself.
It’s true that not every accident is covered up but after Senna’s fatal crash & Williams subsequent action regarding the steering failure it can’t be ruled out & Gilles deserves the truth to be put out there if it was a mechanical failure.

[AnttiK]

That's a scene from the Canvas documentary that was aired +-5-7 years ago, any chance of a link to the full documentary online? I would love to see that one again. They also did a superb documentary about the Onyx F1 team in F1 in 1989.

 

Here you go:

 

Part 1

https://streamable.com/cr25qp

 

Part 2

https://streamable.com/ttockp

 

Part 3

https://streamable.com/sug15e

 

Part 4

https://streamable.com/3urava

 

Part 5 (Warning, the accident aftermath footage is quite tough to watch in places)

https://streamable.com/mnnnfs

 

Part 6

https://streamable.com/ll9h7e

[Doug Nye]

Says it all...

 

DCN

[E1pix]

We’re all different in how we perceive matters such as this — however troubling the subject matter might be.

Though conjectures have been discussed many times here over the years, to us that have it’s old news. To others who haven’t, it’s new information to them. I think sometimes we discount new readers and posters who’ve never seen what’s already been said.

I liken my personal interest as being beyond just a massive fan of Gilles. One example is in the States, any new insights into the death of our President over sixty years ago is met with intense interest to this day. There’s nothing macabre in it really, at least not to most. To me, it’s much more in the realm of normal human interest in simply finding truth within an intense event, even if that resides in some speculation. When new findings are revealed, people simply want to know what happened.

Perhaps it comes down to personal preference of forgetting the past vs. seeking a better understanding of it. Also quite personally, I outright reject any inference that my favorite light in racing was borne out of a darker intent.

Edit: To wit, I possibly learned something new in the video series, and Thanks for posting them — regardless of viewing difficulty. There’s a shot of a couple cars going through the left-hander and being able to stay left after exiting it. It's hard to tell conclusively if they’re at full chat, it almost appears they’re not, but it was interesting to see they were able to stay left — and now ponder what a normal entrance to the right-hander actually was and how a stuck throttle would widen the exit.

I’d always thought the line disallowed that, in which case Mass appeared to pull into the exit line. I now wonder if he was actually leaving room for Gilles to set up for the right-hander to come and maximize Gilles’ lap. Mass was towards the end of his career, so it seems we can discount any thought of his obstructing anyone else’s lap.

Thanks All for the dialog.

Edited by E1pix, 11 April 2024 - 15:31.

[F1matt]

This part reminded me of another famous driver's death driving for an Italian constructor, the rally ace Henri Toivonen driving for Lancia in 1986. One year after his death, his widow revealed in an interview that Lancia refused to pay her Toivonen's unpaid wages, unless she signed a letter where she would promise never to blame Lancia for Toivonen's death. Over the years there have been various suspicions and theories that Toivonen's accident may have been caused by a mechanical failure.

 

 

The chances of a mechanical failure on a Group B rally car were always going to be high, something going wrong on prototypes back then wasn’t unusual and the length of the stages would also be a factor. It has been well recorded that Henri Toivonen was feeling unwell during the event and there were no witnesses to the accident, it is hard to believe that anything could be learned from the wreckage retrieved.  I can understand how a young wife and mother of young children would feel to suffer such a loss, and she would certainly be angry if monies were withheld.

[JacnGille]

I’d always thought the line disallowed that, in which case Mass appeared to pull into the exit line. I now wonder if he was actually leaving room for Gilles to set up for the right-hander to come and maximize Gilles’ lap. Mass was towards the end of his career, so it seems we can discount any thought of his obstructing anyone else’s lap.
 

I thought Jochen said that he saw Gilles coming and moved over to give him the best line.

[scheivlak]

That's a scene from the Canvas documentary that was aired +-5-7 years ago, any chance of a link to the full documentary online? I would love to see that one again. They also did a superb documentary about the Onyx F1 team in F1 in 1989.

Those Canvas documentaries (also about their cycling legends) are among the best ever made anywhere.

[Gilles126c]

Jochen was on the racing line up the hill, then for some reason decided to move to the outside of the corner pretty much at the corner itself, the collision itself was just after the apex, but of course most of Gilles’s car is out of view of the camera.

[Myhinpaa]

I thought Jochen said that he saw Gilles coming and moved over to give him the best line.

 

Looking at footage with the (faint) original sound it looks and sounds exactly as it's been described many times.

Jochen Mass is going at a leisurely pace as he's on his slowing down lap, Giles however is on 10/10ths.

Jochen is taken by surprise and notice him a bit late, Giles shits down in a very aggressive way and is 

very impatient to pass, on the racing line to the left.... Just as Giles floors the throttle again to pass on the right instead

jochen also moves to the right... The violent impact is unavoidable.Everything seems to happen within 1 - 2 seconds

 

Nothing seems to indicates a "stuck throttle", other than to the throttle stop, by Giles' foot.

 

Combined with Jody Scheckter's comments in the documentary clip above (@ 7:22) it all makes sense.

Giles was still very, very upset over what happened at Imola, and the fact that Pironi had qualified 0.1 sec quicker.

Jody knew Giles very well and could better than most make a qualified judgement on how Giles must have felt.

 

Someone asked Ari Vatanen at Race Retro some years back about which rally he remembered the most.

He replied without hesitation: " '82 Welsh Rally". He'd been disqualified because of an unintended wrong slot on

the second run through Epynt.

 

So he came back to his hotel room quite early, switching on the telly to watch the news,

he was devastated to learn of Giles accident and that Giles was dead. Giles was his hero in Formula 1.