230 replies to this topic

[absinthedude]

there should be 13 teams

 

There should be no limit to the number of teams which can enter, while the grid size should be limited to 26 cars, ie 13 two-car teams. Though as yet there appears to be no leak as to whether there's a cap on the number of teams in the new agreement. 

[pdac]

There should be no limit to the number of teams which can enter, while the grid size should be limited to 26 cars, ie 13 two-car teams. Though as yet there appears to be no leak as to whether there's a cap on the number of teams in the new agreement. 

 

There should be no upper or lower limit to the number of cars a team can enter, either (unless it's 1).

Edited by pdac, 31 March 2025 - 14:31.

[IrvTheSwerve]

There should be no limit to the number of teams which can enter, while the grid size should be limited to 26 cars, ie 13 two-car teams. Though as yet there appears to be no leak as to whether there's a cap on the number of teams in the new agreement. 

 

How would that work with the garage space needed for the paraphernalia that goes with a modern F1 car? It's not like it's the 80s any longer and they just need a handful of mechanics and a starter motor. 

[PayasYouRace]

How would that work with the garage space needed for the paraphernalia that goes with a modern F1 car? It's not like it's the 80s any longer and they just need a handful of mechanics and a starter motor.

Pre-qualifying? Having qualifying groups? Have some teams prepare in the paddock and use an assembly area prior to these sessions?

To be fair, “all the paraphernalia” doesn’t require the enormous garages the teams are spoiled with today. There’s a lot of empty space in those garages, and a lot of space taken up by computers and workstations that could be placed elsewhere.

Also, there’s no reason why the rules can’t be written to say that a team isn’t allowed to use more than a certain defined area of garage space. They’ll quickly design cars that can be operated more optimally in confined spaces.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Pre-qualifying? Having qualifying groups? Have some teams prepare in the paddock and use an assembly area prior to these sessions?

To be fair, “all the paraphernalia” doesn’t require the enormous garages the teams are spoiled with today. There’s a lot of empty space in those garages, and a lot of space taken up by computers and workstations that could be placed elsewhere.

Also, there’s no reason why the rules can’t be written to say that a team isn’t allowed to use more than a certain defined area of garage space. They’ll quickly design cars that can be operated more optimally in confined spaces.

 

Just can't see it being logistically possible. If 18 teams showed up, there's no way they'd be able to organise them to have adequate space...even by using 'outside' spaces, etc. Granted, 18 teams would be an extreme.

 

I agree that teams are spoiled with the garage sizes though, pretty sure I've posted those sentiments down the years.

 

Anyway, 13 teams would be enough. They'd fit in all the garages on the F1 calendar and we'd have 26 cars...which is plenty IMO.

[PayasYouRace]

Just can't see it being logistically possible. If 18 teams showed up, there's no way they'd be able to organise them to have adequate space...even by using 'outside' spaces, etc. Granted, 18 teams would be an extreme.

I agree that teams are spoiled with the garage sizes though, pretty sure I've posted those sentiments down the years.

Anyway, 13 teams would be enough. They'd fit in all the garages on the F1 calendar and we'd have 26 cars...which is plenty IMO.

Conversely, I don’t see it being logistically impossible. Just a lack of imagination to solving a small problem.

Worst comes to worst, kick Porsche Supercup off the support lineup. Talk about a waste of space.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Conversely, I don’t see it being logistically impossible. Just a lack of imagination to solving a small problem.

Worst comes to worst, kick Porsche Supercup off the support lineup. Talk about a waste of space.

 

Maybe not 'impossible', but a P-up in a brewery is difficult for this bunch. 

 

I'd love to see it, don't get me wrong, but it'll never happen.

[loki]

Logistics aren’t what’s keeping more teams out for pre qualifying.  It’s too expensive if you aren’t guaranteed to make the show.  No one will front the 100s of mils required to either buy a team or start one (on the off chance they allow another new team).  The only reason none of the 10 teams prior to Cadillac have bailed is Liberty had the rules tweaked to make it a profitable venture or at least pay for itself as marketing.

[FullThrottleF1]

12-13 teams no more seems good to me

[pdac]

I'd like to see 3 or 4 teams fielding many more cars than the 2 they are currently limited to. Maybe people would not mind so much if a team ended up with a dominant car if there were 6 of them on the grid with all of their drivers competing for wins.

Edited by pdac, 31 March 2025 - 17:20.

[Stephane]

I'd love a 30-car grid.

Not gonna happen sadly

[nivoglibina]

I'd like to see 3 or 4 teams fielding many more cars than the 2 they are currently limited to. Maybe people would not mind so much if a team ended up with a dominant car if there were 6 of them on the grid with all of their drivers competing for wins.

You might end up with a 2023 Red Bull with Verstappen, Perez, Lawson and Tsunoda as a team. Is that what you wish for?

[FullThrottleF1]

I'd like to see 3 or 4 teams fielding many more cars than the 2 they are currently limited to. Maybe people would not mind so much if a team ended up with a dominant car if there were 6 of them on the grid with all of their drivers competing for wins.

Yeah...no

[pdac]

You might end up with a 2023 Red Bull with Verstappen, Perez, Lawson and Tsunoda as a team. Is that what you wish for?

 

What would you prefer then, given that, with a formula where every team designs and builds their own cars makes it very likely that one team will do a better job than the others and, so, have a car that dominates? It's not possible to have it all ways. Of course, ideally, we would have 13 teams each so close that a different one could win each race. But that's just the view from rose-tinted glasses.

 

Maybe a better solution may be to disallow teams from hiring drivers from more than one race at a time.

Edited by pdac, 31 March 2025 - 18:40.

[Anderis]

What would you prefer then, given that, with a formula where every team designs and builds their own cars makes it very likely that one team will do a better job than the others and, so, have a car that dominates? It's not possible to have it all ways.

I prefer a two car team that dominates over a four car team that dominates. And if there's a close championship, two car teams are infinitely better than bigger ones. I saw how big teams worked in WTCC when there was a close championship battle and the races were often a farce later in the season, there were more team orders in one race than we get during an entire season in F1. Races are more interesting when drivers who compete with each other drive for teams that operate independently. We saw it even during 2014-2016, while Hamilton and Rosberg were usually allowed to fight each other, they were often limited in their strategy choices due to internal policies (I.e. a driver who was ahead was protected from being undercut by his team mate). Inter team battles > intra team battles.

Also bigger teams tend to strangle the sport because then the 3rd best team instead of fighting for 3-4th place is rather finishing around 6-7th place and everyone down the order is pushed even further. This has a psychological effect on everyone who's not winning, because they seem further away from top positions, will discourage investment to everyone but top2-3 teams and will lead to a weaker, less competitive grid in the long run.

 

I can barely see any positives in allowing the teams to field more cars.

[PayasYouRace]

Just do what they do in IndyCar. Allow each car to have its own livery, as as such, its own sponsors. Three or four car teams abound, but team orders are rare. Also, allow each car its own pit crew.

[absinthedude]

Pre-qualifying? Having qualifying groups? Have some teams prepare in the paddock and use an assembly area prior to these sessions?

To be fair, “all the paraphernalia” doesn’t require the enormous garages the teams are spoiled with today. There’s a lot of empty space in those garages, and a lot of space taken up by computers and workstations that could be placed elsewhere.

Also, there’s no reason why the rules can’t be written to say that a team isn’t allowed to use more than a certain defined area of garage space. They’ll quickly design cars that can be operated more optimally in confined spaces.

 

The teams are absolutely spoiled with their available garage space. Where there's a will, there's a way. It's still about the existing teams trying to (probably illegally) protect their closed shop. And that is fundamentally not what F1 has ever been about. 

 

 

It would be so very sad a loss for F1 fans globally if the teams had to reduce the size of their monstrous hospitality suites. 

[absinthedude]

Hmm that's odd, I thought I had posted more than one line above

 

In addition to the [sarcasm] sad loss of the monstrous hospitality suits....

 

Where there's a will, there's a way. The problem is still the greedy teams not even wanting to find a way to expand F1. Anyone who has the requisite equipment and viable team to run it should be permitted to take part. They then sink or swim depending on their results and ability to find further funding. 

 

When the "garagistes" threatened to topple the "grandees" many years ago, Enzo Ferrari and others might have complained that they weren't "real" teams....but they were permitted to compete and ultimately won. Though it seems the modern version of the grandees have got far to big for their boots. 

 

Example of how much effort I don't put into watching F1 these days. I am actually going to be in Japan this coming weekend, not too far from Suzuka. I won't even bother to watch on TV. 

Edited by absinthedude, 01 April 2025 - 10:44.

[PlatenGlass]

I think the way F1 is run with this completely closed shop away from the rest of motorsport is completely the wrong way of doing it (most non F1 fans don't consider it a proper sport btw). I would open it up much more widely and reduce costs perhaps by introducing a more draconian budget cap, more spec parts etc. and make it a more general class of motorsport. There could even be multiple F1 series going on across the world. But there would still be a world championship like we have now with teams/drivers having to reach a standard to qualify. There would also be much more than 13 teams (26 cars) to take part in a championship event. It could be 3 times that (and behind the top ranking teams it wouldn't necessarily be the same teams at every race). You'd have batches of qualifying, pre-qualifying etc. After that is all done, you'd have and A race, a B race and a C race - with the A race being the full length Grand Prix. You don't get to take part in a GP simply because you're one of a pre-selected 20 drivers from the start of the year. What kind of sport would that be?

 

(Personally I really think the "pinnacle" of motorsport should really be completely driver-based, but that's for another day.)

[loki]

(Personally I really think the "pinnacle" of motorsport should really be completely driver-based, but that's for another day.)

 

I hear ya. But I still understand why some Indycar teams need pay drivers…

 

 

 

[7MGTEsup]

I think the budget cap should be reduced year on year by 10 million dollars untill it's down to 50 million. That's more than enough to run 2 racing cars for a season.

[absinthedude]

I think the budget cap should be reduced year on year by 10 million dollars untill it's down to 50 million. That's more than enough to run 2 racing cars for a season.

 

I know it's a long time ago and even inflation has taken a toll...but I remember the late John cooper talking in the late 80s about setting up the Cooper F1 team, which lest we forget won both titles....for £20,000. "Nowadays I believe we're talking £15-20 million" he added. 

 

£50 million or even $50 million ought to be enough. The teams have become bloated. We don't actually need two second pitstops, massive hospitality suites, 200 team members at every grand prix. Mind you, I am not suggesting we go back to Nora Tyrrell's sandwiches and Alessandro Nannini making his own coffee but things have become bloated. However, you do need to be able to pay enough to entice the best drivers, designers, engineers etc. Because, pinnacle or not, if someone can make double the money at WEC or IndyCary they'll think very carefully about it.

[Bleu]

I think one of the biggest things is that there are now hundreds of people working in the factory during the race weekend while I can imagine they were quite quiet.

[cjm321190]

I prefer a two car team that dominates over a four car team that dominates. And if there's a close championship, two car teams are infinitely better than bigger ones. I saw how big teams worked in WTCC when there was a close championship battle and the races were often a farce later in the season, there were more team orders in one race than we get during an entire season in F1. Races are more interesting when drivers who compete with each other drive for teams that operate independently. We saw it even during 2014-2016, while Hamilton and Rosberg were usually allowed to fight each other, they were often limited in their strategy choices due to internal policies (I.e. a driver who was ahead was protected from being undercut by his team mate). Inter team battles > intra team battles.
Also bigger teams tend to strangle the sport because then the 3rd best team instead of fighting for 3-4th place is rather finishing around 6-7th place and everyone down the order is pushed even further. This has a psychological effect on everyone who's not winning, because they seem further away from top positions, will discourage investment to everyone but top2-3 teams and will lead to a weaker, less competitive grid in the long run.

I can barely see any positives in allowing the teams to field more cars.

Exactly this is why when people were saying pascal wehrlein had a great win in DTM. Yes with 7 team mayes moving over for him. That we do not want.

VCarb/ Alpha Tauri should be the first to be sold to a credible new comer as Redbull technically has a 4 car team.

[Afterburner]

Did they say anything about a team limit?

Because I was curious about this too, and I don’t see any confirmation from elsewhere yet, I noticed this article on RACER indicates the limit has in fact been set at 12 teams.

Given the fact that most recent Concorde Agreement allows for 12 teams, and Cadillac’s entry in 2026 will take the number up to 11, then there is a slot on the grid for a new team, or for a takeover of an existing constructor.

[Ruusperi]

Well, it doesn't really matter if the anti-dilution fee is 800 quadrillion dollars.

[kumo7]

Because I was curious about this too, and I don’t see any confirmation from elsewhere yet, I noticed this article on RACER indicates the limit has in fact been set at 12 teams.

interesting, but they are journalists. when there are thirteen garages in the formula one grade race tracks, then thirteen team can go racing, theoretically. that said, FIA needs to build safety car garage tho, either permanent or temporary like the one of teams hospitality block.

besides, the gaps between F2 and F1 is too large, both in terms of building own cars with tunnels and financial actions. plus, there are internationally operating corporations which has little to do with running a racing team who wants to own F1 team simple because they can.

this comes to one thought. New teams are bound to fail even if it has money, previous experiences in racing and knowledge.

Therefore,…. er,… i say apprentisship could be formed, taking roles, mimicking the method used by RedBull plus yes that F1 movie apex…

The big teams to supply the shape of contemporary F1 teams and yet the operation are strictly undertaken by the newly nominated candidates, where their skills can be grown for teams sake, and for F1’s sake a fresh entry gate for new business chances open to many…

Edited by kumo7, 16 April 2025 - 01:00.

[Afterburner]

interesting, but they are journalists. when there are thirteen garages in the formula one grade race tracks, then thirteen team can go racing, theoretically. that said, FIA needs to build safety car garage tho, either permanent or temporary like the one of teams hospitality block.

As Ruusperi has pointed out, it did cross my mind that the 12th slot only exists as a bone to regulatory bodies, and they have no intention of ever filling it.

[kumo7]

As Ruusperi has pointed out, it did cross my mind that the 12th slot only exists as a bone to regulatory bodies, and they have no intention of ever filling it.

 

Good, that you realized it. 

But, Ruusperi only piosted two posts into this thread both of them emotional rather  than logical.

 

From GM, we know cutting pie into more pieves are trouble. I say unless,... more advantage can be given to the existing teams. GM saga went on untill US gov interviened. From here we know that commercial right holders never does expands to 12, let alone 13. Currently only Red Bull enjoys having the second outfit and it is netting the great advantage taking multiple WDCs and WCCs. Should this status quo continuesm it will be the next issue for ure, just a matter of time. 

[pdac]

As Ruusperi has pointed out, it did cross my mind that the 12th slot only exists as a bone to regulatory bodies, and they have no intention of ever filling it.

 

Absolutely. They will have learned from the GM fiasco (which was basically brought about by a power struggle between the FIA head and the commercial rights holder)

[FullThrottleF1]

We have no idea what is in a Concorde Agreement, it's not a confirmation in any way shape or form. The title should be changed back