43 replies to this topic

[Louis Mr. F1]

i've posted this in the RC forum, but i'd like to get more comments from people in this veteran forum as well, here it comes:


Well, we talked alot about the Senna-Prost, Senna-Schuey battle, but it's
often overlooked the Mansell-Senna fights in the past, and most of them
were very intense, sure more intense than the Prost ones as Mansell was
not easy to give in.

what do you think? still some memories of them?
i'm not too sure, but i think Mansell was bitter (maybe) to see Senna took
his old seat at Lotus and got all the praises from Peter Warr, the team
manager of Lotus, who had openly criticized Mansell in the previous few
years. As well, Senna got immediate success with Lotus, which Mansell
failed to achieve in the four years of driving for Lotus.

there were certainly alot of clashes between these two.




what do you remember of these two titans?

Trivia: do you know which year, both Mansell and Senna drove for the
same F1 team?

pls contribute/share your comments

[FEV]

I would answer the question by another one: who got along
with Senna?! Except Gugelmin and maybe Berger I don't see
anyone.
As for the Mansell-Senna clashes they even had a fight after a
collision (Spa 87?) didn't they? By the way, brazilians must be
the best boxers of the history of F1: Piquet vs Salzar in
Hockenheim 1982, Mansell-Senna and Senna again vs Irivine in
Suzuka 1993! I also can remember Senna and Schumacher
almost punching each other during a private test sesssion
(Hockenheim?? Monza?? 1992?? 1993??)

For the trivia: it must be 1994. Senna as we know did the first
three GPs with Williams before is tragic accident and Mansell
came back beetween to CART races at Magny-Cours. He did a
few other races after France and won the last round in Australia.

FEV

[Rainer Nyberg]

Yes I am sure Senna was difficult to deal with but I sure the ego of "our Nige'" had something to with it also.
Nigel had a fair share of controversies during his time, but I remember he was getting along fine with Keke Rosberg.

[jmcgavin]

Wasn't Rosberg pretty unhappy that Mansell was going to Williams for 85.

I could be wrong but I'm not sure they got on that well until Mansell had his shunt in France that year. I do remember Rosberg's statement at Silverstone regarding how courageous he believed NM was qualify in 5th after his accident at Paul Ricard. I believe that they got on a lot better after that as KR had a newfound respect for NM.

[Gary Davies]

Don't get me wrong ... I'm a huge fan of Nigel as a driver. Aggressive, accurate, a great strategist and a great opportunist (Silverstone 1987, Hungaroring 1989 etc).

But Senna was an aristocrat, a man from a privileged background, someone born to recognise and assert his innate superiority whilst Nige is what we in Australia call a battler. A self made man from an economically not so prosperous part of England.

So he felt he had something to prove. His language was all about "please accept me" (read Nige's autobiography "The People's Champion" for a veritable feast of "what people don't understand" and "people don't realise") and there was no greater need in Nige the driver than to be seen as an equal of Senna. How many times in interviews have we heard Nige categorising himself with Senna and Senna alone in the context of driving?

Was there really animosity between the two? I think not at a fundamental level. It was just that Nige was a working class lad who wanted to be seen as one of the elite.

If only he'd let his driving do the talking. It was all the eloquence he needed.

Not that Nige was wholly the Brummie accented complainer and Ayrton wholly aloof and unaware of Nigel and his tremendous driving talent. Ayrton was very much aware of how to press Nigel's buttons and never was this more effectively demonstrated than by his offer to drive the Williams for no retainer in 1993 just while Nigel was at the most delicate point in his negotiations to re-sign for '93 for the retainer he felt he deserved.

Was there ever a more sublime piece of mischief 'twixt one driver and another?

Vanwall.

[No27]

Did Mansell did not get along with Senna or did Senna did not get along with Mansell?

I think both were very difficult persons for anyone to get along with. But Nigel seems to be more difficult than Senna because he was complaining so much about anything. Patrick Head once said that Mansell was a "pain in the arse". Off course Nigel later complained that this quote was taken out of context etc.
Meanwhile, Senna was just beating everyone.

[Marco94]

Except for that anoying little French guy of course. ;-)

[Gil Bouffard]

Because the sky was blue!

It is a flip answer but when you get down to it. With apologies to Forrest Gump. Ego is as ego does!

The Gil Flipper

[deangelis86]

I think that it was inevitable that two drivers of such fearsome committment, aggression, talent and speed were going to collide at some point. I don't think that jealousy ever entered into the equation.

They held a very healthy respect for each other later on in their careers, perhaps due to the fact that both had matured on a personal level.

Hats off though to Nige and Ayrton for so many memorable moments

[BRG]

Mansell was (and probably still is) a pain in the arse, or more correctly, a pain in the ear. If there was ever a driver who should have been kept in a soundproof box and only allowed out to drive his car, it was Nigel. But he was a hugely determined charger and a total racer and I think has been very under-rated because his era was also that of Senna and Prost. If his heyday had been in the 1970s, we would probably recall Mansell as one of the "greats".

His relationship with Senna wasn't easy. Obviously, he recognised that he had to beat Senna above all others and he did so many times. His real service to F1 was to be the one who finally stood up to Senna and refused to let him get away with the bully-boy tactics that, for me at least, always make Senna a highly flawed genius. These confrontations led to crashes, and of course to the infamous fight at Spa. But, like most bullies, Senna eventually realised that Mansell could not be intimidated. The excellent picture in Louis Mr F1's original post was probably the final step in this process, when Senna, for the first time, gave way to Mansell.

I doubt if Mansell was jealous of Senna or felt in any way inferior to him. I suspect all drivers at that level are supremely certain that they are the best, whatever the evidence. Maybe that was why Mansell always had some whinge about the car or the tyres etc etc - I remember once after a runaway, completely dominant win, he whinged about his drinks bottle coming loose and how difficult it had all been! Their rivalry was simply that of two racers each desperate to beat the other.

Personallu, of the two, I admired Mansell more than Senna. (This is not about nationality, incidentally - I am from London and we would generally rather see a Brazilian win than someone from Brummagem ;) ). Senna's effortless brilliance and arrogance about his driving rather alienated me (much as Schumacher's does today) and his unsporting tactics infuriated me. Mansell, for all his whinging and facial hair, seemed the more human and the more fallible. He visibly put everything into his driving, in the same manner that made so many of us love Gilles Villeneuve. Clearly he was as much a brilliant natural driver as Senna, but there just seemd to be so much more soul involved And he was usually a firm but fair driver.

[deangelis86]

BRG,

You make some very good points indeed in your post, the only thing I perhaps would disagree with from a personal point of view is the suggestion that Senna was a bully.

I think he was a deeply misunderstood person. His fearsome dedication and ability to devote everything in his life to F1 has never been matched.

I personally believe it was these factors, rather than the "bully factor" that contributed to his acts of arrogance and intimidation out on the circuit.

Just my own personal point of view, I personally couldn't care less if Nigel came from Birmingham or Essex. The fact remained that he was a brit with balls as tough as steel, and no matter how dull he may have been as a person, in my memory he will always be remembered as perhaps the only man who could match Senna in terms of sheer speed.

[Barry Boor]

Surely the question we should be asking is....

Did ANYONE actually get along with Nige?

Although I did not see 'This Is Your Life' when they collared Mansell, the story goes that the whole F1 grid was invited and who turned up.....? Well, I gather, Stirling Moss!

I do not make this statement as fact, just heresy.

[C F Eick]

Perhaps it was as many of you says, that Mansell had something to prove. It seemed as if it wasn't enough with a win, it also mattered how he won it. I remember the 1992 season when he leading with 40+ seconds and 5 laps to go started putting in fastest laps! Perhaps he wanted to show the fans that it wasn't just the car that was superior or he wanted to prove something to himself, I don't know, but I can't see, for example, Prost doing the same.

[ebe]

I suppose the problem began, when NM in the Williams 1985/86 had his chances and oppotunities for the title.
AS often had pole and was driving and trying to keep his postion at any costs with any means no matter what comes next. His -imo partly unsporting behaviour- clashed against NM's will for taking the bait.
So some - unnecessary - collisions occured, the rest of their relationship is history.

[Louis Mr. F1]

just a quick picture to remind you the iamge:



japan91, mansell off on his own, well, he said long pedal.


finally, at Monaco92, a great battle in the last few laps, still remember it?

[man]

I've been checking out the GP Masters site on a fairly regular basis of late and it was interesting to note the general manner in which Nige, even now, talks about racing. Here is a prime example of a man with a chip on each shoulder! You would have expected him to have mellowed a little with age, but one still gets the impression that he has it in his mind that is him versus the establishement or even the world! He somehow has taken it upon himself to play the Robin Hood role in motor racing although it was probably this mentality that made him such a special driver to watch racing.

I recall watching a cheesy documentary on Senna some years ago consisting of interviews with the usual suspects....Gerhard, Alain et al. What I remember most was a brief few words from Nige. He was referring to Barcelona 1991 where he and Senna were inches apart for the duration of the start/finish straight. Nige said something along the lines of "What Ayrton forgot that day was that he wasn't racing any driver, he was racing me!" Oh Nige!

I don't think Senna disliked Nige as Nige was, without trying to sound offensive too simple a character for the Brazilian to hold a grudge against. It was more a case of Senna toying with him although he certainly did respect him as a racer. The one established top driver that Senna competed against that I feel he didn't have respect for was Piquet. It's interesting to note that Nelson also used to toy with Mansell but at a more vulgar level.

Likewise, I don't think Nige particularly disliked Senna. Nige's biggest enemy was himself and perhaps that is still the case today!

Bring on GP Masters and lets hear the old buggar whine for England again!

[mikedeering]

Mansell ran in the DTM masters event event earlier this year against other racers - Prost, Scheckter, Doohan etc I think.

Anyway, after the first practice sessions I think Prost was fastest, but Nige was quick to point out that Alain had an advantage as he had tested the cars before etc etc. It was like the last 15 years didn't happen!

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by mikedeering
Mansell ran in the DTM masters event event earlier this year against other racers - Prost, Scheckter, Doohan etc I think.

Anyway, after the first practice sessions I think Prost was fastest, but Nige was quick to point out that Alain had an advantage as he had tested the cars before etc etc. It was like the last 15 years didn't happen!

It was like the good old days all over again!

BUT, Niggle did have a point - apart from having allowed Prost to test the cars previously, when Prost's car failed to start for the beginning of one of the 'races' and he consequently failed to set a good time, he was allowed to continue, after everyone else had stopped, gaining enough points to come first yet again (at great risk of starting a 'heated debate' I will say that I always felt that Prost tended to come first rather than win some of his races).

That is something I never imagined I'd do - defend Niggle, like most of his team I felt he was best kept in the car and away from a microphone!

It will be great if all the cars in this new event are equal, but I wonder if some cars will be more equal than others - there seem to be enough egos in the new series that I'm sure some races will continue long after the chequered flag has fallen!

[santori]

Originally posted by FEV


I would answer the question by another one: who got along
with Senna?! Except Gugelmin and maybe Berger I don't see
anyone.

He and Thierry Boutsen were very good friends, I think. Didn't Boutsen stay with Senna in Portugal during an off-season?

On a related topic: I have read that the Piquet-Senna enmity began when a young Senna asked Piquet for an autograph shortly after the death of Gilles Villeneuve and was ignored by the upset Nelson. Any idea if it's true?

[man]

Originally posted by santori


He and Thierry Boutsen were very good friends, I think. Didn't Boutsen stay with Senna in Portugal during an off-season?

On a related topic: I have read that the Piquet-Senna enmity began when a young Senna asked Piquet for an autograph shortly after the death of Gilles Villeneuve and was ignored by the upset Nelson. Any idea if it's true?

I beleve that to be the case, although i'm not sure if Gilles death was the sole/real reason for Nelson's cold response to Senna. Up until then, I believe Senna admired his countryman.

I believe Senna was also a close friend with Gugelmin as well as Berger and Boutsen.

[Zawed]

Originally posted by man

I believe Senna was also a close friend with Gugelmin as well as Berger and Boutsen.

Interesting that none of the 3 drivers mentioned were a serious threat to Senna on track.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Zawed


Interesting that none of the 3 drivers mentioned were a serious threat to Senna on track.

Well, his birthday parties would have been pretty lame if he could only be friends with his real competitors....

[Jhope]

I don't want to turn this in to an "Imola 94" thread, but I have one question that I cannot for the life of me get answered. After Senna was extracted from his car, and place on the tarmac, Eric Comas in a Larousse made his way to the scene.

I know Coma respected Senna tremendously, especially after Senna parked his car and helped Coma gte out of his burning Ligier during a Hockenheim (practice?) session in 1991 I believe. This is unquestionable. But what I would like to know about Imola 94, was not why, but how Coma made his way out the pitlane in his car, during a red-flagged period? What sanctions did he face? What sanctions did his team face? If any...

For reference about Eric Coma at Imola, please see video.
***WARNING - VIDEO DEPICTS A FATAL ACCIDENT***

[Zawed]

Originally posted by scheivlak
Well, his birthday parties would have been pretty lame if he could only be friends with his real competitors....

I dunno. I'm sure Prost and Mansell could cut loose if they wanted to.

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by man
Nige said something along the lines of "What Ayrton forgot that day was that he wasn't racing any driver, he was racing me!" Oh Nige!

Oh Nige indeed and doesn't it just make you cringe. Aaargh!

But he had a point. I think that Senna eventually became aware that Mansell had industrial size cojones!

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by santori


He and Thierry Boutsen were very good friends, I think. Didn't Boutsen stay with Senna in Portugal during an off-season?

Ah, that might explain why in Hungary 1990 finishing third behind Boutsen and Nannini was unacceptable but finishing second behind Boutsen was acceptable to some degree....
Hence the efforts to make Nannini fly off the track but save Thierry for a similar treatment.....


Henri

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter



Ah, that might explain why in Hungary 1990 finishing third behind Boutsen and Nannini was unacceptable but finishing second behind Boutsen was acceptable to some degree....
Hence the efforts to make Nannini fly off the track but save Thierry for a similar treatment.....


Henri

I think Senna made direct reference to this afterwards - joking (or perhaps not) that as they were friends he didn't want to have an accident with Thierry but that next time Boutsen would get the Nannini treatment as well.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by deangelis86
.....His fearsome dedication and ability to devote everything in his life to F1 has never been matched.....

I think I could mention a few...

Some died, some survived. But there were many who were as fiercely devoted to success in F1 over the years.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Zawed
Interesting that none of the 3 drivers mentioned were a serious threat to Senna on track.

Perhaps their lack of focus (or whatever else kept them further down the grid) made them more fun than the drivers who were also at the front of the grid.

Can you blame someone for not wanting to spend time with Niggle for example?

Try to imagine having fun with Schuey or Raikkonen (even Finnish friends think Raikkonen is dull - maybe his fellow lap dancing enthusiasts disagree), the level of commitment at the front of the grid seems to be so high that there isn't a lot of room for fun - and that seems to be increasing.

He was a friend of various mutual friends, who always thought he was great company - we also had a mutual interest in model planes, of course he was brilliant with them and learnt to fly R/C helicopters because they were so difficult (much easier now because of computer controls - like F1 cars!!!).

[Paul Parker]

In reply to the original question, perhaps we should all remember Senna's propensity for deliberately driving into people who he could not pass otherwise, something that I cannot at this time and distance, recall NM being guilty of. Alas our great hero was guilty of hooligan driving tactics when all else failed, a trait shared by a latter day 'ace'.

Additionally the inevitable comments about whingeing are getting awfully repetitious. NM very had good reason to complain at various stages during his professional career. Perhaps we should also remember that just because someone has a special skill and is very successful, famous, admired etc., does not mean that they are or have to be nice or even interesting. Many such people (and I am not imputing anything here to the persons already mentioned) are ruthless, sometimes sociapathic or even mildly psychcopathic. That is how they get to be so successful and why in the modern era, nice guys or girls rarely if ever win.

[Mike Lawrence]

Erik Comas was waved out of the pitlane at Imola by mistake. He drove round the track and came across Sid Watkins cutting open Senna's throat. Erik was completely shattered by the experience so much so that the wife of a senior member of the team he was driving for moved into his flat in London for a week simply to be a friendly ear and to hold his hand.

My source is the husband of the lady who helped Erik, so read nothing else into that.

Members of the Larrousse team reckon that Erik lost a second a lap through the experience and was finished as a Formula One driver. I thought Comas was pretty good but his career was wrecked by being waved out on to the circuit because someone had got their lines crossed.

Nigel Mansell does not have a Brummie accent, it is a Black Country accent, which is a bit like Birmingham, but more flat. It does not have the poetic quality of the Brummie accent.

I don't know how you define working class, but when Nige bought a ride with March in F3, he sold some painting which were in his family. I don't know about you, but there were no valuable paintings in my family. It is said that he sold his house, but his (ghosted) autobiography makes it clear that he traded down in the housing market. The guy who ran Mansell at March (and kept him on after the money ran out) was was well miffed at the story Mansell spread around that March had shafted 'The People's Champion'. He said, "Did you own a house when you were 24?"

One of Mansell's biggest breaks came when Ron Tauranac took him aboard the Ralt-Honda F2 programme, mainly at the suggestion of Colin Chapman, who had signed Mansell to a test contract. No mention of Ron Tauranac in the autobiography which was written by James Allen. The only mention Ralt gets is that Williams used a Honda engine which Nigel developed in Formula Two. Dream on, boy.

Eoin Young once wrote that everyone would be happier if Mansell was taken from his car at the end of a race and sealed in a box until qualifying began for the next race.

When Mario Andretti was approached about running in the Goodwood Festival of Speed, he had one question, "Will Nigel be there?" When assured that Mansell would not be present, Mario accepted the invitation. Nigel has never been to the Festival of Speed, make of that what you will.

By the Lord Harry, though, but wan't he great when on a charge? If an asteroid the size of one of Mansell's gonads ever hit Earth, all animate life would be wiped out.

[AndreasF1]

I remember well those great years of Senna vs Mansell, Prost, Piquet etc..
However, with respect to Mansell's achievments it has to be said that even though he perfomed well, and had some great races, he was nowhere near Senna's league. Of course Senna knew Mansell's strengths and weaknesses like no other and was aware that given equall machinery Mansell would not be a serious threat. The press did its part by not giving enough praise to Mansell and teasing him about his plenty misshaps, where as Senna's superiority was never questioned. Mansell also was not happy that Senna literally dominated the driver market in the late 80's and 90's to the point where the driver market was at a stand still until Senna put his signature on a contract.
Mansell showed all the signs of a man with an inferiority complex when it came to Senna and also Prost as both are widely regarded as the better drivers.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence

Nigel Mansell does not have a Brummie accent, it is a Black Country accent, which is a bit like Birmingham, but more flat. It does not have the poetic quality of the Brummie accent.
...
It is said that he sold his house, but his (ghosted) autobiography makes it clear that he traded down in the housing market.
...
By the Lord Harry, though, but wan't he great when on a charge? If an asteroid the size of one of Mansell's gonads ever hit Earth, all animate life would be wiped out.

Mansell's autobiography was ghosted by the man who talks in my sleep on ITV (My ears spontaneously fill with wax when he shouts GO! GO! GO!) and shows all the correctness, insight, attention to detail and readability of the same author's execrable hagiographies of Michael Schumacher.

I can forgive Mansell almost anything for some of his performances in the car; they made the fact that he was a wrist-artist surrounded by sycophants out of the cockpit excusable. Very few dull Mansell drives.

[D-Type]

In all fairness, if you accept that Mansell did not have the innate skill of Senna, then it is all to his credit that he was competitive with him.

But, if only he could have kept his mouth shut!

In answer to the original question: my take is that rather than be intimidated by Senna, Nigel made it very plain that he would not tolerate any attempt at intimidation. Needless to say, Senna didn't like that.

[MrAerodynamicist]

Well it can't have helped the number of times they crashed in to each other!

[Jhope]

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence
Erik Comas was waved out of the pitlane at Imola by mistake. He drove round the track and came across Sid Watkins cutting open Senna's throat. Erik was completely shattered by the experience so much so that the wife of a senior member of the team he was driving for moved into his flat in London for a week simply to be a friendly ear and to hold his hand.

My source is the husband of the lady who helped Erik, so read nothing else into that.

Members of the Larrousse team reckon that Erik lost a second a lap through the experience and was finished as a Formula One driver. I thought Comas was pretty good but his career was wrecked by being waved out on to the circuit because someone had got their lines crossed.

Thank you!

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence


By the Lord Harry, though, but wan't he great when on a charge? If an asteroid the size of one of Mansell's gonads ever hit Earth, all animate life would be wiped out.

hahahaha! classic all animate life, but not James Allen of course ;)

[Tony Kingston]

The guy who ran Mansell at March (and kept him on after the money ran out) was was well miffed at the story Mansell spread around that March had shafted 'The People's Champion'. He said, "Did you own a house when you were 24?"

Mike,
As one who worked at March at the time when Mansell bought his F3 drives, I remember being very disappointed when a senior person made very derogatory remarks about his performances. It was obvious to us, on the ground, that there was speed and talent there. Whether he weas shafted or not I don't know, but some time later, a colleague and I were asked our opinions, by Dave Price (Unipart F3). I like to think that our positive comments helped with an earlier career break than that which you mentioned.

[Mike Lawrence]

As far as I recall, opinion was divided. Peter Windsor did a very good job at promoting Mansell, as did Peter Collins. Colin Chapman though a lot of him and he had a good record at spotting talent.

In company with many other people, I did not think Mansell would make it and we were all wrong Thank the Lord Harry that we were only thinking about motor racing, we did not have our finigers on the 'Go' button for a nuclear attack, when being wrong might have made a difference.

Tony, since you raise the issue, I was quoting James Gresham.

[Tony Kingston]

Tony, since you raise the issue, I was quoting James Gresham.

James Gresham was the salesman (stores manager) at that time. I can't get into the financial dealings because I know bugger all about it. The person who was very critical of Mansell had the initials D.R.
Dr. Mike Foxon was the team manager/engineer.
I was only the gofer.

[Mike Lawrence]

Initials DR?

I have went down the initials rout when at Motor Sport. ML can stand for Mario Lanza, even though he was dead.

Let's see, DR:

Dave Reeves, Derek Richards, Dave Reeves, Dino Riccardo, Dave Reeves, Diana Raialto, Dave Reeves, Don Renk, Dave Reeves....

You have me, can't think who. One thing I do know is that it could not possibly be that Dave Reeves who made such a wonderful job of the management buy-out,.

March's swish new headquarters was leased to them by Bernie at, I think, £325,000 pa. You have the March name, but your only product goes under the name of Ralt How many Formula Atlantic cars do you have to sell to raise the profit to pay the rent?

[Mallory Dan]

DR eh, well it certainly wasn't me...

By the way, whatever happened to Dave Reeves ??

[Tony Kingston]

Acording to Marchives.com, he is with a company called Magnex scientific.

[MrAerodynamicist]

Given this debate, I thougth the first bit of Fittipaldi's comment about Mansell after todays GPM race was (mildly) interesting...

"An amazing race and one which was a joy to drive! I remember a few years ago when Nigel came over to Indy Cars and the late great Senna told me to watch out for Nigel's car control. Today I witnessed that first hand again and at times, I really thought he had crossed the limit but time and time again he managed to keep the car on the track - and get faster!"