119 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

What happened there? I presume they didn’t literally on autopilot pick up Max but… what did happen and how?

[jacdaniel]

Yeah I actually don’t know… I saw SC and thought that brings Norris into play. I went out to get a drink and when I came back Norris was somehow leading.

[Myrvold]

What happened is very simple. They picked up the wrong driver.

Why... That's a good question.

Another question is, why did they not spot it, and fix it earlier...

[Brod]

What happened there? I presume they didn’t literally on autopilot pick up Max but… what did happen and how?

 

Oh I had the same thought (they just assumed was leading because why wouldn't he  )....but....I am punished Alonso fan and never got over Valencia 2010. How can something like this happen a second time? And back then...it was a close call...they just missed Vettel. Today? They had all the time in the world. I don't get it. 

In my mind...this is one of the greatest sports....period. It just is. I love F1 since the 90s when I was a stupid little kid and I still love it when I'm a stupid little adult. But....something needs to change. Not a team, not a driver (not even Mag) did a job this weekend on the level of the FIA. They ****ed up. 

 

Like I already said...they are lucky that everyone is happy for Lando....Valencia 2010 was already something that should've been a major shitstorm...and yeah I'm a grumpy Alonso fan with flashbacks left and right, but.....this one is just...wow. 

[PayasYouRace]

Someone spotted it.

 

 

It was bad timing of the SC. Lando was passing the finish line as it got called. So they couldn't pick him up.

[MJB5990]

Did it cost Max coming out ahead?

[Myrvold]

Someone spotted it.

 

But... that's not how it works. The SC isn't sent out and then picks up the first car that arrives...

[PayasYouRace]

Also, it didn’t affect Lando tanking the lead.

 

If he followed the delta (which is there to close the pack up) then no foul. He was already 12 seconds ahead so would have taken the lead anyway.

[Stephane]

Did it cost Max coming out ahead?

Nope

[Frood]

At least it was handled a little better than the F2 race in Monaco last year. I'm surprised the FIA let an error with the safety car procedure happen again, though.

[Myrvold]

Also, it didn’t affect Lando tanking the lead.

 

Also. The delta is quicker than the SC. So when did the SC pick up Verstappen in relation to when Norris pitted?

[PayasYouRace]

But... that's not how it works. The SC isn't sent out and then picks up the first car that arrives...

That is how it’s been done in F1 for years. It’s been a long time since they waited for the leader, because that lead to cars running around for longer than necessary. As Scotracer said, it doesn’t make much difference if you’re driving under the delta.

[JHSingo]

I mean, after the last few seasons, it's easy to mistake Verstappen as the race leader. Force of habit, I suppose.   

[Myrvold]

That is how it’s been done in F1 for years. It’s been a long time since they waited for the leader, because that lead to cars running around for longer than necessary. As Scotracer said, it doesn’t make much difference if you’re driving under the delta.

 

Ok. This is something I need to see, because the delta is faster than the SC, so if they just send it out, and genuinely pick up the first random car that arrives, that is a big issue.

 

EDIT: To clarify: The Safety Car leaving the pits and joining the track, is not the same as picking up the first car that arrives and not letting the cars pass.

Edited by Myrvold, 05 May 2024 - 22:12.

[Calum]

Are we even sure it was the usual Bernd Meylander… I saw a photo of a forum user sitting in the Safety Car driver seat!! 

[squarewun]

Someone spotted it.

Yep, I was watching it on live timing. He was just into turn one when the SC appeared slightly behind. Just luck. Had he been picked, he would have ended up much further down with the pitstop, after a lap behind the SC.

Edited by squarewun, 05 May 2024 - 22:14.

[Hellenic tifosi]

By the way, since the SC was called after Lando had passed the pit entry, if the SC had picked him correctly, his race would have been royally screwed instead of being helped.

[squarewun]

Also. The delta is quicker than the SC. So when did the SC pick up Verstappen in relation to when Norris pitted?

Way before Norris pitted.

[MRX94]

That is how it’s been done in F1 for years. It’s been a long time since they waited for the leader, because that lead to cars running around for longer than necessary. As Scotracer said, it doesn’t make much difference if you’re driving under the delta.

I don't think that's true. The other cars should have been waved past immediately, that's how it's usually done. Basically the SC circulates around until the leader catches up to it, then all the other cars form up.

[jacdaniel]

I know people will laugh this off but if this was a race with something big on the line then it then it would be a different story.

[Kao18]

Nope

I think it would if the SC had picked him up as it should have bunching the pack together before his stop. Or if it was to late for that waving the other cars through straight away instead of holding them up.

Edited by Kao18, 05 May 2024 - 22:19.

[Clrnc]

By the way, since the SC was called after Lando had passed the pit entry, if the SC had picked him correctly, his race would have been royally screwed instead of being helped.

Nope. The SC would pick him up the next lap. On that very lap SC didn't pick up anyone actually.

[Myrvold]

I know people will laugh this off but if this was a race with something big on the line then it then it would be a different story.

 

Yup. Not that a win in F1 isn't "something big", but it feels like this is being overlooked for some weird reason.

[Brod]

By the way, since the SC was called after Lando had passed the pit entry, if the SC had picked him correctly, his race would have been royally screwed instead of being helped.

 

And that would be bad luck, but the question of who the SC has to pick is one that should be always answered the same way. Consistency is key. 

[Hellenic tifosi]

Nope. The SC would pick him up the next lap. On that very lap SC didn't pick up anyone actually.

Suppose the SC gets called when Norris was exiting the final corner. It takes about 10-12 seconds for him to reach the pit exit line via the track, by which time the SC should have picked him.

Normally, when you are leading and are due to stop a SC offers you a completely free stop, unless it is called before the team can bring you in.

[Peter3hg]

Yup. Not that a win in F1 isn't "something big", but it feels like this is being overlooked for some weird reason.

Did it change anything? Norris had an 11+ second lead before the safety car so should have come out ahead anyway. If the safety car was called earlier then Norris would have been able to pit that lap, as it happened he'd passed the pit entry but that also meant the safety car didn't pick him up.

In the end if anyone had a slightly disadvantage it was Norris as his tyres would have been cooler waiting for the field to catch up before the start.

Basically a bad cock-up but I don't think it had any impact on the race.

Edited by Peter3hg, 05 May 2024 - 22:24.

[Clrnc]

Suppose the SC gets called when Norris was exiting the final corner. It takes about 10-12 seconds for him to reach the pit exit line via the track, by which time the SC should have picked him.

Normally, when you are leading and are due to stop a SC offers you a completely free stop, unless it is called before the team can bring you in.

It was called right when he was passing the pit entry. So the SC could never have picked him up that lap

[Scotracer]

The SC should have instructed the pack to pass but you need to factor in that S1 is where the incident was as well as where they were. So likely procedural to not let the pack pass until clear...maybe? Did the SC let them by on that same lap or did it wait one? If the latter then that's perhaps the part that needs looking at.

Either way as I said, Lando was around 12s ahead when the SC got called. On delta it would have remained that way until Lando could pit next lap.

[Hellenic tifosi]

It was called right when he was passing the pit entry. So the SC could never have picked him up that lap

Why?

Isn't the safety car always waiting at its box, at the end of pitlane? It should take it no more than a few seconds to reach the pit exit line.

[Myrvold]

Did it change anything? Norris had an 11+ second lead before the safety car so should have come out ahead anyway. If the safety car was called earlier then Norris would have been able to pit that lap, as it happened he'd passed the pit entry but that also meant the safety car didn't pick him up.

In the end if anyone had a slightly disadvantage it was Norris as his tyres would have been cooler waiting for the field to catch up before the start.

Basically a bad cock-up but I don't think it had any impact on the race.

 

TBH, I missed what was seen as the SC pit stop time loss, however, that is calculated with SC speed, not SC-delta speed? So he would've lost more if everyone was driving to a delta.

 

So I am genuinely unsure.

[Myrvold]

The SC should have instructed the pack to pass but you need to factor in that S1 is where the incident was as well as where they were. So likely procedural to not let the pack pass until clear...maybe? Did the SC let them by on that same lap or did it wait one? If the latter then that's perhaps the part that needs looking at.

Either way as I said, Lando was around 12s ahead when the SC got called. On delta it would have remained that way until Lando could pit next lap.

 

They waited until 1/3 of a lap after Norris had pitted IIRC. So, they didn't get let through, no.

 

What was the SC pit time loss?

[Hellenic tifosi]

TBH, I missed what was seen as the SC pit stop time loss, however, that is calculated with SC speed, not SC-delta speed? So he would've lost more if everyone was driving to a delta.

So I am genuinely unsure.

I assume this is always calculated with SC delta speeds, as a driver normally pits before catching the pack.

[Disgrace]

I know people will laugh this off but if this was a race with something big on the line then it then it would be a different story.

 

I don't see the big deal...? I don't think picking up the wrong leader changed the result. And safety cars change race outcomes all the time.

[Myrvold]

I assume this is always calculated with SC delta speeds, as a driver normally pits before catching the pack.

 

Hmmm. I need to download the race then, to rewatch the different time losses in the pits, as it tends to pop up on the screen.

[Scotracer]

They waited until 1/3 of a lap after Norris had pitted IIRC. So, they didn't get let through, no.

What was the SC pit time loss?

Short pitlane so I believe 9 seconds was the number shown.

[Myrvold]

Short pitlane so I believe 9 seconds was the number shown.

 

I will have to download it anyway. To see the numbers for VSC and normal as well. To try to figure out if it the time is behind SC or delta.

[Scotracer]

Is the VSC and SC delta equivalent? What's the calculation in the sporting regs?

[ensign14]

What happened there? I presume they didn’t literally on autopilot pick up Max but… what did happen and how?

Tribute to Canada 1973?

[AlexPrime]

It was a bit strange, but you know, I don't think that many people will be angry.

[Myrvold]

Is the VSC and SC delta equivalent? What's the calculation in the sporting regs?

 

I honestly can't remember seeing any specific calculation in the F1 Sporting regs. There might be somewhere else though.

[Gareth]

I don't see the big deal...? I don't think picking up the wrong leader changed the result. And safety cars change race outcomes all the time.

Depends if he would have come out behind Max if Max had a lap at the delta speed (rather than the SC speed) then maybe it changed the result. Lando was clearly faster, and by a chunk, but that’s no guarantee of passing.

I doubt it did change the result even if that restart had been Max P1, Lando P2, I think Lando had the pace and the tyre life and wear advantage to do it. But it definitely introduces an element of uncertainty. It’s one thing to get lucky with an SC (that’s racing), another thing to get lucky with an incorrectly applied SC (I’m excited to be on the same side of that debate as jacdaniel ).

[ANF]

Yep, I was watching it on live timing. He was just into turn one when the SC appeared slightly behind. Just luck. Had he been picked, he would have ended up much further down with the pitstop, after a lap behind the SC.

Yes, I'm replaying it now. The SC message/boards came out 1–2 seconds after Norris had gone past the pit entry. And on the GPS map it looks like the actual safety car left the pit lane just after Norris had gone past it on track. Looks like Norris beat the safety car to the SC2 Line by 1–2 seconds. (Overtaking is not allowed after the SC2 line, so he would have been stuck behind the safety car and probably rejoined in P5 or P6 after the pit stop.)

Edited by ANF, 06 May 2024 - 14:26.

[Myrvold]

Is the VSC and SC delta equivalent? What's the calculation in the sporting regs?

 

I've just looked a bit at the lap charts for China. It looks like Perez did a 2.13 under VSC under the VSC Delta time. He then did a 2.24 behind the SC. However, Ricciardo did a 2.14, 2.12, 2.12 and 2.08(!) under the VSC and then SC. So from this, it looks like the "catch up to the field" SC-delta is the same as the VSC one.

If that is correct, then I would assume the SC pit stop loss time is at SC speed, not delta-speed.

[Myrvold]

(Overtaking is not allowed after the SC2 line, so he would have been stuck behind the safety car and probably rejoined in P5 or P6 after the pit stop.)

Unless the SC has the "pass me" signal on, which it should have when the SC hasn't picked up the leader.

[TomNokoe]

The gap before the SC was called was 11.4s. By way of comparison, Tsunoda was 11.9s ahead of Hamilton, both followed the SC deltas, and Tsunoda made a cheap stop and emerged 2 seconds ahead. So I think Lando retains track position regardless.

 

Although it still bugs me the rules allow cheap pit stops like this. If there has to be a loser in SC situations, surely the least unfair option is to close the pits and benefit the cars that have already stopped, because they have already sacrificed track position and race time. In this situation, Norris would have pit under green flag conditions likely when the yellow flags were flying. It really annoys me you can win so much race time.

[Spillage]

I think Lando was 11 seconds ahead when the SC was called and 30 seconds ahead by the time.he pitted because the SC picked up Verstappen. Not sure whether or not 11 seconds is enough to make a pot stop and keep the lead under an SC, but it would have been pretty close. Lando deserves a win but I think he got pretty lucky today.

[ANF]

The gap before the SC was called was 11.4s. By way of comparison, Tsunoda was 11.9s ahead of Hamilton, both followed the SC deltas, and Tsunoda made a cheap stop and emerged 2 seconds ahead. So I think Lando retains track position regardless.
 
Although it still bugs me the rules allow cheap pit stops like this. If there has to be a loser in SC situations, surely the least unfair option is to close the pits and benefit the cars that have already stopped, because they have already sacrificed track position and race time. In this situation, Norris would have pit under green flag conditions likely when the yellow flags were flying. It really annoys me you can win so much race time.

Somebody on this forum came up with a very simple and excellent idea: reduce the pit lane speed limit under (V)SC so that the pit stop time loss is the same as under green flag conditions.

[Myrvold]

The gap before the SC was called was 11.4s. By way of comparison, Tsunoda was 11.9s ahead of Hamilton, both followed the SC deltas, and Tsunoda made a cheap stop and emerged 2 seconds ahead. So I think Lando retains track position regardless.

 

Although it still bugs me the rules allow cheap pit stops like this. If there has to be a loser in SC situations, surely the least unfair option is to close the pits and benefit the cars that have already stopped, because they have already sacrificed track position and race time. In this situation, Norris would have pit under green flag conditions likely when the yellow flags were flying. It really annoys me you can win so much race time.

 

One thing McLaren had was the safety of time. No stress needed on that stop!

[Anderis]

By the way, since the SC was called after Lando had passed the pit entry, if the SC had picked him correctly, his race would have been royally screwed instead of being helped.

I think this happened in Hungary 2014, where Rosberg, Bottas and Vettel were P1, P2, P3, they passed the pit entry and ended up 4th, 11th and 7th even though everyone has pitted. 

[ANF]

Unless the SC has the "pass me" signal on, which it should have when the SC hasn't picked up the leader.

Exactly. That signal was eventually turned on so everybody except Norris could pass the SC. I suppose it could have/should have been turned on straight away.