Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Does Toyota have vaiid point about hybrids saving the planet ?


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 mariner

mariner
  • Member

  • 2,347 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 15 May 2024 - 15:13

18 months ago everything was about EV's heading to world production domination by 2030 etc. Many European OEM's declaring they would be "EV only" by then. Toyota was derided for being so behind on decent EV's xcmpared to China etc.

 

 

Now the EV rush has hit some reality  and MB has just cancelled its big EV only new platform and Fiat are putting hybrid IC engines into the  600 EV..

 

So, while full EV will come its going to be slower for a while, I think, so maybe the point Toyota made when criticised for it's lack of  EV sales is valid.

 

Basically they argued that with much of their markets in Latin America, Middle East, Africa and parts of Asia ( and maybe the USA) many years from  a full public charging network people can trust so using Lithium battery production to make many more smaller hybrid cars is actually better for quick de-carbonisation.

 

I am not sure if they are right but with plug in hybrids getting up to 50 real electric miles from overnight home charging it could be an interesting argument.?

 



Advertisement

#2 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • RC Forum Host

  • 9,338 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 15 May 2024 - 15:58

18 months ago everything was about EV's heading to world production domination by 2030 etc. Many European OEM's declaring they would be "EV only" by then. Toyota was derided for being so behind on decent EV's xcmpared to China etc.
 
 
Now the EV rush has hit some reality  and MB has just cancelled its big EV only new platform and Fiat are putting hybrid IC engines into the  600 EV..
 
So, while full EV will come its going to be slower for a while, I think, so maybe the point Toyota made when criticised for it's lack of  EV sales is valid.
 
Basically they argued that with much of their markets in Latin America, Middle East, Africa and parts of Asia ( and maybe the USA) many years from  a full public charging network people can trust so using Lithium battery production to make many more smaller hybrid cars is actually better for quick de-carbonisation.
 
I am not sure if they are right but with plug in hybrids getting up to 50 real electric miles from overnight home charging it could be an interesting argument.?

My wife and I bought a plug-in hybrid last year (Honda Clarity) and since owning it I can’t see many benefits of using for a full EV over a plug-in hybrid if you live in a rural area and can make most full trips on the ~50 miles of range. Any technological advances that benefit EVs will also benefit plug-ins, which allow for the electrification of far more vehicles with the same amount of rare earth metals.

Not that I have anything against the folks who like going full EV, I just don’t see the downsides of the plug-ins, especially on a mass market scale.

#3 Bob Riebe

Bob Riebe
  • Member

  • 3,034 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 15 May 2024 - 16:18

The only thing Toyta is trying to save, or give damn about, is the bottom line.

 

Save the planet -- ****, I have a New York bridge I can sell them.



#4 Magoo

Magoo
  • Member

  • 3,762 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 15 May 2024 - 19:38

If I had to choose between a Toyota EV and a Toyota hybrid, I would choose the hybrid. 



#5 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 12,554 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 15 May 2024 - 21:43

My wife and I bought a plug-in hybrid last year (Honda Clarity) and since owning it I can’t see many benefits of using for a full EV over a plug-in hybrid if you live in a rural area and can make most full trips on the ~50 miles of range. Any technological advances that benefit EVs will also benefit plug-ins, which allow for the electrification of far more vehicles with the same amount of rare earth metals.

Not that I have anything against the folks who like going full EV, I just don’t see the downsides of the plug-ins, especially on a mass market scale.

for that specific use case you could build an EV with a smaller battery

Having a thermal engine carried around and not used is hardly a good use of resources



#6 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,396 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 15 May 2024 - 21:58

"Having a thermal engine carried around and not used is hardly a good use of resources" which is a reasonable argument, but is building rarely used chargers in the middle of nowhere a good use of resources, or is driving a (non existent) mobile fast recharging unit to a flat EV a good use of resources? Is sitting around playing on your porn browser while you are topping up your charge a good use of resources ?  As it happens a hybrid is the only form of EV I could contemplate. I must admit Toyota's stance on EVs has long puzzled me.



#7 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • RC Forum Host

  • 9,338 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 15 May 2024 - 22:12

for that specific use case you could build an EV with a smaller battery
Having a thermal engine carried around and not used is hardly a good use of resources

But how do you sell a vehicle with only ~50 miles of range to people who can only afford one vehicle and want to use it to travel long distances? As EV batteries get smaller so do those in plug-in hybrids.

#8 Catalina Park

Catalina Park
  • Member

  • 6,791 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 16 May 2024 - 07:16

https://electrek.co/...-in-leadership/



#9 mariner

mariner
  • Member

  • 2,347 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 16 May 2024 - 08:04

https://electrek.co/...-in-leadership/

 

A vaild if somewhat hysterical point of view but it doesn't address the , I think , equally valid point Toyota made abut public charging networks , which are essential to EV take up, being a long way of in much of the  world.

 

If you take Latin America, Africa, Middle East,,India and Indonesia which are  45% of the world's population they have about 15M annual car sales which is the same as USA and more than Europe so I do think Toyota have a valid point - as long as they make plug in hybrids of course.



#10 mariner

mariner
  • Member

  • 2,347 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 16 May 2024 - 10:31

I have tried to apply a bit more of my often muddled thinking to this question of BEV's vs. PHEV's

 

Ultimately, I guess PHEV's make no sense as you are dragging an heavy and expensive IC engine plus gears around just because you don't have , or trust,, or can afford  public charging . What is more the IC engine is festooned with complex add-ons like EGR, PF's etc just to meet emissions standards.

 

The IC will go wrong eventually and if it fails the annual emissions test you can't use the car.

 

BUT 

 

Firstly,  if it has 40 -50 mile range and you have domestic plug you can probably still commute to work and shops each day until you can afford to fix it. Assuming of course that you are allowed to leave the test site with your IC engine immobilised.

So maybe the IC engine can be a pain but not a disaster.

 

Secondly, all cars with a battery/controller/motor installed use regeneration to extend range. That is true whether hey are F1, Formula E , BYD or Tesla etc. I Think the smaller PHEV batteries are still plenty big enough to accept the relatively  short brake, regen., power cycles. Which raises an interesting question of how much of an EV's range is from regen. not external charge up?

 

If you have access to recent Racecar Enginering's there is an interesting article  on exactly that subject for  Formula E races where the cars now start , by FIA regulation, with less energy than needed to run the race flat out so regen is everything.


Edited by mariner, 16 May 2024 - 10:35.


#11 Magoo

Magoo
  • Member

  • 3,762 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 16 May 2024 - 12:35

I see PHEVs in part as training wheels for real EVs, helping timid and suspicious consumers to make the transition. 



#12 Magoo

Magoo
  • Member

  • 3,762 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 16 May 2024 - 12:36

 

Yep. Toyota spends millions around the world lobbying against climate change action. 



#13 cbo

cbo
  • Member

  • 860 posts
  • Joined: September 21

Posted 16 May 2024 - 20:40

I see PHEVs in part as training wheels for real EVs, helping timid and suspicious consumers to make the transition.


There are things that EVs do not do well, yet.

Obviously, they are a hassle if you are driving in areas where the charging network is limited or non-existant. There is still quite a few places like that around Europe.

If you are towing something substantial at longer range, EVs are a hassle as well. You have to charge every 200 km or so and most charging stations require you to remove the trailer in order to charge the car.

I'd much prefer a PHEV for those scenarios, which is why I drive one. About half my annual milage is currently in EV mode, the other half is in HEV mode.

If I had to change my wheels today, the alternative to the PHEV would be petrol, perhaps HEV, not electric.

But in a few years time, that may have changed.

#14 Magoo

Magoo
  • Member

  • 3,762 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 16 May 2024 - 22:36

Only a tiny percentage of the population ever tows a trailer.



#15 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 11,103 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 17 May 2024 - 06:56

There are things that EVs do not do well, yet.

Obviously, they are a hassle if you are driving in areas where the charging network is limited or non-existant. There is still quite a few places like that around Europe.

If you are towing something substantial at longer range, EVs are a hassle as well. You have to charge every 200 km or so and most charging stations require you to remove the trailer in order to charge the car.

I'd much prefer a PHEV for those scenarios, which is why I drive one. About half my annual milage is currently in EV mode, the other half is in HEV mode.

If I had to change my wheels today, the alternative to the PHEV would be petrol, perhaps HEV, not electric.

But in a few years time, that may have changed.

Heavy towing?? Saw a clip on Elons Cartoon truck yesterday that got 85 miles on a full battery,,about the same as the Ford but less than the GM.

Utterly useless,, more so that you cannot pull up to a charge without unhooking the trailer.

This test was done alongside a Diesel Dodge that cost less to refill and not a 90 min+ recharge.And unless things change Stellantis is about to commit corporate suicide with EVs.

Worse importing China EVs. That will work well,,NOT.



#16 cbo

cbo
  • Member

  • 860 posts
  • Joined: September 21

Posted 17 May 2024 - 06:56

Only a tiny percentage of the population ever tows a trailer.


That is not the point. The point is that there are very good reasons for some of us to drive a PHEV. That does not make us suspicious and timid when it comes to EVs.

You are displaying the arrogance of the elitist and fanatical EV-owner here and that is not becomming.

Also, you failed to mention the problem of the charging network not being up to the task. There are areas, where you may have a couple of 11 or 22 kw AC chargers and perhaps the odd 50 kw charger within, say, a 50 km radius. As a visitor, you have to compete with the locals for acces - if the chargers work, that is.

I like EVs and will likely get one in a few years time, but let's not make ourselves look stupid by assuming that EVs fit all current needs and that people who do not own EVs are timid and suspicious luddites.

#17 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 11,103 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 17 May 2024 - 07:02

Only a tiny percentage of the population ever tows a trailer.

Actually a fairly large minority do,, what with boaties, caravanners, rural people, people doing the monthly dump run plus motorsport people as well. Driving interstate I reckon 25% of vehicles are towing.

And I doubt any or many will be doing this with an EV. The majority are doing it though in 4wds wether proper or SUV persuasions.



#18 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,396 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 17 May 2024 - 21:44

It's a culture thing. In Oz there are 15 million cars and a million registered caravans and an unknown number of other small trailers. Tow bar fitment is 50% on big cars/SUVs. In the USA if you want to tow something you buy a truck.



#19 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 7,655 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 17 May 2024 - 22:22

I have tried to apply a bit more of my often muddled thinking to this question of BEV's vs. PHEV's

 

Ultimately, I guess PHEV's make no sense as you are dragging an heavy and expensive IC engine plus gears around just because you don't have , or trust,, or can afford  public charging . What is more the IC engine is festooned with complex add-ons like EGR, PF's etc just to meet emissions standards.

 

The IC will go wrong eventually and if it fails the annual emissions test you can't use the car. . . . .

I imagine hybrids have less difficulty meeting emissions standards - the ICE operates in a narrow high efficiency band - no idling, no full-load enrichment, fewer transients etc.



Advertisement

#20 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 12,554 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 17 May 2024 - 22:36

But how do you sell a vehicle with only ~50 miles of range to people who can only afford one vehicle and want to use it to travel long distances? As EV batteries get smaller so do those in plug-in hybrids.

Those people are not the audience for it. If you have multiple vehicles maybe a 50mile-100 mile range one is also an option.

If not - there are 300 mile range now vehicles. 

Plug in is a bad compromise, you actually buy both cars. 
I get it why car manufacturers wanna sell them :)



#21 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 12,554 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 17 May 2024 - 22:37

Actually a fairly large minority do,, what with boaties, caravanners, rural people, people doing the monthly dump run plus motorsport people as well. Driving interstate I reckon 25% of vehicles are towing.

And I doubt any or many will be doing this with an EV. The majority are doing it though in 4wds wether proper or SUV persuasions.

25% of the vehicles towing? no way near that.

Maybe 2.5%....



#22 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 26,022 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 18 May 2024 - 20:39

Plenty of EVs on the road round my way in the UK, but I cannot remember ever seeing one towing anything, nor even seeing one with a tow hitch fitted.

 

I am very pleased with my hybrid Renault.  70 mpg, 550 mile range between 3or 4 minute fuel stops.  Who needs a BEV?



#23 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,396 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 19 May 2024 - 00:03

You have to differentiate between the proportion of mileage spent towing (that is, two trips a year at 2000 km each for my camper trailer, so 4000 out of a total of 20000) and the number of times you tow, 8 days out of a year. Similarly for my cage trailer, probably only 500 km a year, maybe 8 days.

 

According to the first relevant survey I pulled up 1% of 'short vehicles' as they call them were towing on some city roads.



#24 Catalina Park

Catalina Park
  • Member

  • 6,791 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 19 May 2024 - 02:06

I live in a town on a major highway that is home to various fast chargers, I see quite a few electric vehicles towing trailers passing through. 
I also see lots of EVs with bike racks mounted to tow bars.

I spoke to a bloke that was towing his caravan behind a Kia EV. He loved it. He was comfortable with the range .and charging.



#25 Magoo

Magoo
  • Member

  • 3,762 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 19 May 2024 - 20:25

EVs are awesome for towing. The issue is range while towing, and for many, probably most people that should not be a concern. 



#26 Secretariat

Secretariat
  • Member

  • 964 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 21 May 2024 - 13:20

As far as the opening post/question goes, I think Toyota is on a sensible path (mixed menu of solutions) if we are talking about a global strategy related to carbon emissions. However, a global strategy implies coordination and cooperation of governments and business interests alike which we do not have at the moment in my opinion. So, Toyota going the route of EV's, battery production, hydrogen and hybrids make sense to me.