74 replies to this topic

[Nathan]

The sport has headed off in a different direction over the last couple of years and there is so much focus on non racing factors, fake rivalries, focus on team principals, and now a focus on drivers girlfriends watching from the pits. Would a breakaway series be aimed at traditional F1 fans or the OK magazine crowd? I know which one will provide the most revenue but that probably wouldn't be the series that would survive long term.

 

 

Do you not remember the constant shots of Mika's wife 25 years ago? Or all the attention Ron, EJ and Flavio use to muster bickering in the press?  Frank was always shown sat in font of his TV in the garage.  Traditional fans are normal people.  Most people like the extras, some don't. The idea drama and intrigue is only for certain crowds is a crock. If it was just about going in circles and racing it will be boring and not very popular, as demonstrated by countless grassroots motorsports that offer great racing but go unwatched.

 

Doing the opposite of whatever Liberty does sounds like a save bet to longterm success.

 

Long term success in any venture is based around financial security.  In that regard, F1 has never had it better.

[H0R]

Do you not remember the constant shots of Mika's wife 25 years ago? 

Man the nineties were a time when driver's girlfriends and wives were mostly nice looking accessories with high TV compatibilty. And then Erya Häkkinen and Connie Montoya came around and were having nothing of that s**t.

Edited by H0R, 27 May 2024 - 15:48.

[PayasYouRace]

Can I change the circuits too? Becau if so I'd like every corner with gravel. There should be no room for mistakes.

I think you can try to change whatever you like, but remember that all changes have consequences.

[RedRabbit]

You need an established brand or series, instead of something brand new.

So I would look at creating an IndyCar World Series, as a step above current IndyCar. A different car, focused on the aesthetic primarily, and then use at least an 800+ hp V8.

Tires that don't need nursing.

15 or 16 races.

And I would entice established IndyCar teams into the new series alongside some independents from F1.

Finally, invite star name drivers from both IndyCar and F1 to join. You need that familiarity. Even if it's older drivers not at their best anymore.

[PayasYouRace]

I fell like it would be possible to have something akin to the LMH/LMDh Hypercar equivalence for FIA/ACO/IMSA top level prototype sports cars and have essentially a common set of technical regulations for F1 and Indycar.

 

Much like with the Hypercars, the F1 rules could be a bit more bespoke, but at the end of the day you would have a common set of regulations that would compete with each other. You’d then be able to have strong fields of works and customer entries in both series. There could be a gap in the F1 calendar so everyone could turn up for the Indy 500 and have it as a big celebration of the world’s top single-seater machinery. With the way the Indycar season ends so early, Indycar teams could reciprocate and show up at the late season Grands Prix. (Edit) With the American races at the end of the season, this would work well for those teams. (/Edit)

 

 

This would be my dream for F1 and Indycar. Do what’s making sportscar racing have its current resurgence.

[PlatenGlass]

I honestly wouldn’t mind a spec series with the best drivers. And I have advocated on different threads for races without stops.

What I’m not sure of, however, is if drivers really would like equal cars, on one hand, and how enforceable equal cars would be. The other question one has to ask in this case is, who would be interested in taking part and financing the cars (can you have equal cars if you have teams and if you don’t have teams, who would invest in the cars other than the original billionaire that creates the series).This, of course, is not to say I wouldn’t like it.

The amount of drivers you mention sounds large, especially if you have to do more races per weekend to accommodate all. I’m not sure you could gather so many of the highest level and if this wouldn’t somehow devalue each individual driver. But I love the idea of having meaningful driver stats for the first time ever…

 

Drivers could be given their cars at random for each weekend so it should be easy to enforce equal cars. The cars would probably have some things that could be set up accordingly to suit the drivers, but other than that they would basically be exactly equal. I don't see why the drivers wouldn't like it. If this series suddenly came into existence now, fully formed, certainly all F1 drivers outside the top few teams would be attracted to it. Last year, probably everyone other than Verstappen and Perez. And really only Perez because Verstappen probably wouldn't be scared of it. Plus drivers come and go, and even if current F1 drivers wouldn't be attracted to it, I don't see any reason why up and coming talent would prefer F1 to this. You wouldn't get a tennis player deciding to instead compete in tournaments where only a handful of players have rackets that allow them to win. Over time, this would become the obvious model for a driver-based championship and people would look back at F1 as the dark ages.

 

As for financing the cars - it would need to get off the ground to some extent to start with, but with TV money, sponsorship and the rest, it could all be funded from that. A spec series would also be much cheaper than F1. No money need be spent on that extra 0.1 seconds per lap and fighting back against rule changes designed to slow the cars down. Things could also be kept relatively stable for years.

 

With all the drivers competing, I think, the number of events per year could be reduced to make each one more of a big deal. Drivers could then also compete in other series where they are individually a bigger fish. The grand slam tennis tournaments have 128 players in.

[kumo7]

I will reinvent current formula-E into free to engineer formula.
‘Cause Toyota is busy with H motor and on racing with Corolla. H motor is just as good as that. It will be a bit far to become the potential new power source. I do think that E power still has more future than what Formula-E had brought us.

[jonpollak]

I wouldn’t start it.

It would be doomed to failure before it started.

No chance of you having any positive imagination.
I take it you don’t socialize with folks that aren’t of your ilk.

Jeez
Jp

[jonpollak]

Mine is a cross platform REAL Drivers World
Championship.

There’s a thread on here from years gone by.
But no one could agree on what races in which cars..
lol.
Jp

[IrvTheSwerve]

Just give me the late 90s/early 00s with synthetic fuels. Job done. 

[le chat noir]

Standardised V10s with synthetic fuels. No car manufacturers.

Race teams with title sponsorship - no sponsors replacing the team name or team name reflecting an external business.

Chassis design by the teams. Power supply and gearbox supplied by independent - Cosworth, Supertec etc.

24 cars.

16-18 races.

Gravel traps / gravel moats.

No DRS. No batteries. No push to pass.

Flappy paddle gearbox.

Qualifying tyres.

Refueling.

Wide tyres at the back, narrow at the front.

Invisible halo.

Rudimentary aero.

£40m race team budget

£10m travel budget

£10m marketing budget

Third cars.

Two-day weekends.

Two cars per team.

100 points for the winner

10 for sixth

8 / 6 / 4 / 3 / 2 / 1 down to 12th

No fastest lap point.

 

Support formulas for juniors and women, run by the same teams in spec cars. Also online versions.

Practice and quali on Saturday for all - online, women, juniors, premier., then races on Sundays.

Two of the 24 teams commit to making junior champion seat available.

 

Multi track layouts.

Variation in track layouts. If we have Monaco, we also need old Hockenheim. Race tracks, odd street race, Indianapolis, other oval layout, Le Mans.

 

Quarterly support races with lead drivers, junior drivers and women in other cars and karts.

 

Free-to-air  / free-to-stream. Immediately available on VoD.

[PlatenGlass]

Mine is a cross platform REAL Drivers World
Championship.

There’s a thread on here from years gone by.
But no one could agree on what races in which cars..
lol.
Jp

I quite like the idea of different races in different cars. It takes away the arbitrary nature of just happening to have a driving style that suits F1-style cars rather than simply being a better driver than somebody else. I've thought about this before and would consider incorporating it into what I've suggested.

It rotate from year to year though. One particular Grand Prix need not be stuck with one particular type of car.

[Gravelngrass]

Drivers could be given their cars at random for each weekend so it should be easy to enforce equal cars. The cars would probably have some things that could be set up accordingly to suit the drivers, but other than that they would basically be exactly equal. I don't see why the drivers wouldn't like it. If this series suddenly came into existence now, fully formed, certainly all F1 drivers outside the top few teams would be attracted to it. Last year, probably everyone other than Verstappen and Perez. And really only Perez because Verstappen probably wouldn't be scared of it. Plus drivers come and go, and even if current F1 drivers wouldn't be attracted to it, I don't see any reason why up and coming talent would prefer F1 to this. You wouldn't get a tennis player deciding to instead compete in tournaments where only a handful of players have rackets that allow them to win. Over time, this would become the obvious model for a driver-based championship and people would look back at F1 as the dark ages.

 

As for financing the cars - it would need to get off the ground to some extent to start with, but with TV money, sponsorship and the rest, it could all be funded from that. A spec series would also be much cheaper than F1. No money need be spent on that extra 0.1 seconds per lap and fighting back against rule changes designed to slow the cars down. Things could also be kept relatively stable for years.

 

With all the drivers competing, I think, the number of events per year could be reduced to make each one more of a big deal. Drivers could then also compete in other series where they are individually a bigger fish. The grand slam tennis tournaments have 128 players in.

As stated before, I'd be all for this, a Driver's Championship. More as devil's advocate than in opposition to the concept, I guess the tricky part, as with any other idea though, is how do you achieve critical mass initially so that it becomes sustainable. I think there's a similar business model in Sail GP, where I think Larry Ellison finances the whole thing until it can stand on its own. Not sure how that's going though and whether it would be easier or more difficult in the world of open wheel auto racing. 

 

Of course, I think the success of a spec series of this kind would hinge primarily on the drivers you are able to attract. I mean, I wouldn't mind watching a similar series with names such as Albon, Gasly, Bottas, etc. but to really land a blow to F1 you'd need the big 5 names and, at the end of the day, even if they all say they would love something like this, the main deciding factor is going to be money. So you'd need really deep pockets from the start to be able to lure them with equal salaries to F1. Another option to get it rolling would be to attract retiring F1 drivers who could get a second wind and a chance to prove they are better than the rest on equal cars. If you can combine them with F2 drivers and others that have been ignored by F1's bad driver management system, you could achieve an initial interesting mix. Imagine a first or second year with Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, Bottas, Bearman and a few other drivers from F2, Indy or others. Just with the first 4 you'd have previous rivalries that would create excellent expectations.

 

Another key element, IMO, would be to manage to extricate the big auto manufacturers from an auto racing series. As contradictory as that would seem, my perception is that new generations of fans are no longer that much into cars or car brands in general. Due to the improvements in public transportation and the eco-conscience of new generations, many have never used a car and are not interested in ever owning one (probably none of them has a poster of a Countach or a 328 in their rooms), so the interest in car brands or teams I'd say is already very much reduced compared to 20, 10 or even 5 years ago. My perception also, is that many of the fans of DTS are more driver than team, but I have no proof of that. In any case, I think the elements could be there to create a successful series without any car manufacturer involvement.  

[Gravelngrass]

Standardised V10s with synthetic fuels. No car manufacturers.

Race teams with title sponsorship - no sponsors replacing the team name or team name reflecting an external business.

Chassis design by the teams. Power supply and gearbox supplied by independent - Cosworth, Supertec etc.

24 cars.

16-18 races.

Gravel traps / gravel moats.

No DRS. No batteries. No push to pass.

Flappy paddle gearbox.

Qualifying tyres.

Refueling.

Wide tyres at the back, narrow at the front.

Invisible halo.

Rudimentary aero.

£40m race team budget

£10m travel budget

£10m marketing budget

Third cars.

Two-day weekends.

Two cars per team.

100 points for the winner

10 for sixth

8 / 6 / 4 / 3 / 2 / 1 down to 12th

No fastest lap point.

 

Support formulas for juniors and women, run by the same teams in spec cars. Also online versions.

Practice and quali on Saturday for all - online, women, juniors, premier., then races on Sundays.

Two of the 24 teams commit to making junior champion seat available.

 

Multi track layouts.

Variation in track layouts. If we have Monaco, we also need old Hockenheim. Race tracks, odd street race, Indianapolis, other oval layout, Le Mans.

 

Quarterly support races with lead drivers, junior drivers and women in other cars and karts.

 

Free-to-air  / free-to-stream. Immediately available on VoD.

A lot of this sounds good, except refueling. And I would like to give a little thought to why many fans don't want more races. My theory is that because the current state of F1 is so boring, people resent having to watch more races with more domination. Another argument I've heard is that it makes every individual race "less special". But let me tell you something, if you had great racing, you'd want as much of it as possible (up to a certain point sure, don't make it like football). But for me that point is easily 20 races, although it depends on whether the circuits are right as well. Motogp has sprints every race weekend and I think they're working great as they're a different type of race, with a different mindset and priorities, which makes them interesting on their own. So I think maybe the amount of races fans would like to have in a season would increase if the races were better. 

[le chat noir]

A lot of this sounds good, except refueling. And I would like to give a little thought to why many fans don't want more races. My theory is that because the current state of F1 is so boring, people resent having to watch more races with more domination. Another argument I've heard is that it makes every individual race "less special". But let me tell you something, if you had great racing, you'd want as much of it as possible (up to a certain point sure, don't make it like football). But for me that point is easily 20 races, although it depends on whether the circuits are right as well. Motogp has sprints every race weekend and I think they're working great as they're a different type of race, with a different mindset and priorities, which makes them interesting on their own. So I think maybe the amount of races fans would like to have in a season would increase if the races were better.

I liked refuelling because it put more into the strategy. Different weights, different grips etc.

Number of races - it’s about life balance. Weekends are precious. Summer weekends more so. Start missing races, start missing lots of races, they all start to blur, they start not to matter.

Why not have the olympics, World Cup, euros each year. Wimbledon twice a year.

Taskmaster twice a year is plenty

[BoDarvelle]

I agree on refueling adding to the strategy.

 

And no paddle shift. H pattern and no auto rev matching.

 

Bring back heel and toe.

 

Making them harder to drive introduces more opportunity for mistakes.

Edited by BoDarvelle, 28 May 2024 - 21:56.

[Gravelngrass]

I liked refuelling because it put more into the strategy. Different weights, different grips etc.

Number of races - it’s about life balance. Weekends are precious. Summer weekends more so. Start missing races, start missing lots of races, they all start to blur, they start not to matter.

Why not have the olympics, World Cup, euros each year. Wimbledon twice a year.

Taskmaster twice a year is plenty

Yeah, the advocacy for refueling depends on whether you see auto racing primarily as a strategic exercise or as a purely racing one. My personal view is that racing should be so pure as to even exclude tyre changes, thereby forcing on-track racing between cars under the same conditions (let’s face it, is it really racing if a much lighter car passes or a car with worn hard tyres is passed by one with new soft tyres?). I think F1 has used pit stops in order to artificially spice up races because it has failed to produce this type of pure racing, which other series like Motogp have proved is possible. Furthermore, tyre changes and refueling have a much more traditional origin: when the races were very long and sometimes outside of circuits, there was no alternative other than refueling and, while they were at it, might as well change tyres. However, in modern circuit racing, both have proved to be unnecessary and actually detrimental to exciting on-track racing.

Edited by Gravelngrass, 29 May 2024 - 18:20.

[kumo7]

Do you not remember the constant shots of Mika's wife 25 years ago? Or all the attention Ron, EJ and Flavio use to muster bickering in the press?  Frank was always shown sat in font of his TV in the garage.  Traditional fans are normal people.  Most people like the extras, some don't. The idea drama and intrigue is only for certain crowds is a crock. If it was just about going in circles and racing it will be boring and not very popular, as demonstrated by countless grassroots motorsports that offer great racing but go unwatched.

 

 

Long term success in any venture is based around financial security.  In that regard, F1 has never had it better.

 

I got this bold new plan...

 

I mean it.

 

 

So two Formula-1 leagues, that compete each there on different set of tracks. 

Leagues-A on traditional tracks, leagues-B on more new venues. By this I mean relatively. Monaco is for league-A, Las Vegas is for league-B

Both 12 teams max, and does run 12 teams, each run 16 races per season, in total 32 races per season.

 

The Rules are the same, the parts purchase exchange possible. 24 teams are different teams, no one owner two teams nowhere.

All tech rules to be in continuous developments between the two technical working groups of each Leagues.

But the PU reg must be the same. 

 

Off season head to head in three venues, meaning they race in total 35 races per season. 14 weeks to prepare new cars and 3 weeks vacation in a shifted timings.

Could run League-B in Southern hemisphere season, and the League-A on Northern hemisphere.

A bit tricky as to how it run the battle between the two champions. One starts in March to October, other other September to April, if it were. 

 

How about it?

[kumo7]

OK I am convinced that I did not explain My idea about this ground breaking F1 breakaway series sufficiently.

What I meant to say is that the league-A competes against the league-B with his regulations of all aspects of race meetings, the cost, technical snd sporting codes.

The break away series is the racing format of the regulations.

The aim of the both leagues are to produce cars that uses identical PU, that travel 300 km in a shortest time under clear rule sets. Each league produces the full set of regulations which will achieve the results. At the end of the year the champions from the two league go head to head to see which car and team and the regulations produce the better performances.

They could alter simple thing such as sizes of tires, and actions such as refueling, to more complex rules such as movable aero, drivers assistance, and event and race formats like sprint qualify, drivers applications, all of the rules. But it must be done in discussions between the TWG of the two league plus FIA so that these two full sets of regulations are raceable at the end of the each season.

League-A is the current formula one series and the league-B is the break away, but this break away is operating under one parasol to organise racing between them.

Great, isn’t it???

Edited by kumo7, 06 June 2024 - 00:23.

[ClubmanGT]

Well basically I just copied the F1 we have now, except I have some F2 team wildcards and some local drivers to flesh out the grid.

 

And this racing stripe here I feel is pretty sharp.

[PayasYouRace]

 

I got this bold new plan...

 

I mean it.

 

 

So two Formula-1 leagues, that compete each there on different set of tracks. 

Leagues-A on traditional tracks, leagues-B on more new venues. By this I mean relatively. Monaco is for league-A, Las Vegas is for league-B

Both 12 teams max, and does run 12 teams, each run 16 races per season, in total 32 races per season.

 

The Rules are the same, the parts purchase exchange possible. 24 teams are different teams, no one owner two teams nowhere.

All tech rules to be in continuous developments between the two technical working groups of each Leagues.

But the PU reg must be the same. 

 

Off season head to head in three venues, meaning they race in total 35 races per season. 14 weeks to prepare new cars and 3 weeks vacation in a shifted timings.

Could run League-B in Southern hemisphere season, and the League-A on Northern hemisphere.

A bit tricky as to how it run the battle between the two champions. One starts in March to October, other other September to April, if it were. 

 

How about it?

 

I’ve had a similar idea in the past. Have, say, three regional F1 championships that run from March to September, each with a maximum of 12 races and  allowing a maximum of 24 cars starting each race, but unlimited entires. Then at the end of those, as well as crowing regional champions, the top 8 drivers or top 4 constructors (not sure what would be better), from each would compete in a final set of four races to determine the World Champions for that year.

 

I think it would work well from a sporting perspective but would be difficult commercially.

[10kDA]

Slower cornering speeds, less grip which would result in cars carrying less energy offtrack therefore spectator viewing areas could be closer to the track edge. 175" max length, 85" max width, 110" max WB. Untapered, unswept, single element 12" maximum chord wings no wider than the inside edge of wheels/tires. No endplates on front wings. No body/chassis panels past inside edge of wheels/tires. No diffusers of any kind - no non-mechanical device or structure below and behind the rear axle line. One tire compound, 9" max contact width F, 12" max contact width R. ICE only, 5L max, normally aspirated, mechanical valve actuation, no DRS, no push-to-pass. Engine claiming rule - say $25k for starters, including induction, exhaust, engine management, and lube systems. No radio comms with drivers, no telemetry/data gathering/storage systems or transmitting devices except timing & scoring transponder. Manual transmission. Fuel capacity and tire wear characteristics to favor running full distance without stops. No driver-adjustable chassis settings.

 

+/- 200 mile race distance, or distance resulting in approx. 2 hour race time. Full course yellows strongly discouraged. Starting lineup for main race determined by finishing positions & times in 5 lap heats. Avoid holding events at Tilkedromes.

 

Each car limited to max 10 at-track personnel incl. engineers, mechanics, managers, excl drivers.

 

Entries open to all interested parties, no "charters", no "syndicates", no "approval process" determined by teams already established, no administration by media/entertainment entities or businesses, no multi-million$ "pay to play" fees.

 

Encourage contingency $$$ from automotive - oriented businesses. Discourage involvement of auto manufacturers. BIG purses and points fund, for drivers and teams. Hey, if I'm a billionaire, might as well kick it all off with a big incentive.

[kumo7]

I’ve had a similar idea in the past. Have, say, three regional F1 championships that run from March to September, each with a maximum of 12 races and  allowing a maximum of 24 cars starting each race, but unlimited entires. Then at the end of those, as well as crowing regional champions, the top 8 drivers or top 4 constructors (not sure what would be better), from each would compete in a final set of four races to determine the World Champions for that year.

 

I think it would work well from a sporting perspective but would be difficult commercially.

 

This is very similar idea, indeed. I have got this theory that when there are more people who comes up with similar idea, this idea got the future. It is something that more people want to have it realized. So I think it is good.

 

What good about this idea of the break away series is that, it has been discussed for many years already. So in this sense it has got the potential to succeed. I think agonizing feeling is something that a promoter can use to promote the event commercially. At every world you have protagonists and antagonists. 

I recognize a lot of agony from Australians against British, perhaps due its history. Obviously at McLaren, there was this huge antagonism against Norris from Riccialdo supporters, and now with lesser degree on Oscar. This is something a promotor can use. For Aussie League-B of my scheme is the protagonists, and League-A is the antagonists, while for trad F1 fans, vis-a-vis.

[se7en_24]

Man the nineties were a time when driver's girlfriends and wives were mostly nice looking accessories with high TV compatibilty. And then Erya Häkkinen and Connie Montoya came around and were having nothing of that s**t.

Roseanne Mansell? Georgie Hill? Corinna Schumacher? I think you are doing a lot of 90s F1 wives a bit of a disservice there. 

[aportinga]

 

Edited by aportinga, 06 June 2024 - 16:01.