90 replies to this topic

[chrcol]

Should Max have been penalised for this?

New poll as the existing one is for the contact, this is for the 5 times Max moved under braking prior to the contact.

Edited by chrcol, 30 June 2024 - 18:15.

[SenorSjon]

No, happens every race everywhere and frankly a LOT are overreacting about this over a pretty minor contact. Norris was very whiny, while not being a saint himself.

[Beri]

Should Max have been penalised for this?

New poll as the existing one is for the contact, this is for the 5 times Max moved under breaking prior to the contact.

In front of the Dutch TV, Max has stated he already moved before he stepped on the brake. Which is likely what the FIA also has concluded and meaning he didn't move under braking (not breaking).
Verstappen also went on record that from TV feed, you can never really see when the brakes are applied.

Edited by Beri, 30 June 2024 - 17:18.

[PayasYouRace]

Of course it should be penalised. It’s one of the biggest no-nos in motorsport. Precisely because it has the potential to cause a crash.

[pup]

Absolutely the stewards should have been all over it, and perhaps if their eyes weren’t glued to the white lines, they would have been.

[AlexPrime]

No. Defensive driving is almost impossible with DRS. Almost. Don't neuter it do the end.

[Maustinsj]

The spelling certainly needs correcting…

[Beri]

Absolutely the stewards should have been all over it, and perhaps if their eyes weren’t glued to the white lines, they would have been.

Or perhaps you should/could accept the vision of Verstappen that he only moved before applying the brakes and the whole "moving under braking" wasn't actually a thing today.

[BoDarvelle]

I'd like to see a penalty for spelling it breaking when speaking of retarding forward momentum.

[pup]

Or perhaps you should/could accept the vision of Verstappen that he only moved before applying the brakes and the whole "moving under braking" wasn't actually a thing today.

Oh, Max said he didn’t do it? Gee, sorry then.

[Broekschaap]

I never move when i am on a break. Matter of principle.

[kumo7]

FIA must discipline its champion. Nothing is bigger than the rulling organization. 

[Beri]

Oh, Max said he didn’t do it? Gee, sorry then.

Did you see an "under investigation" considering this topic?
No?
Gee, perhaps he is speaking the truth.

[Beri]

I never move when i am on a break. Matter of principle.

Only to stay hydrated I move my arm

[basimi]

Question from me from the other thread. Maybe is better suited here.
**
The only thing what I was wondering is about moving under braking. Because I saw Max saying that he did not moved under braking itself, but you do see some questionable moves. And Lando was on the onboard saying that Max cannot move anymore after Lando has made a move (even outside the braking zone?). So if you are not yet braking for example, but you are ofcourse engine braking/lifting. How would that apply to the rules? Because you can be certain if that is within the rules, drivers like Max take advantage of that.

[PayasYouRace]

Question from me from the other thread. Maybe is better suited here.
**
The only thing what I was wondering is about moving under braking. Because I saw Max saying that he did not moved under braking itself, but you do see some questionable moves. And Lando was on the onboard saying that Max cannot move anymore after Lando has made a move (even outside the braking zone?). So if you are not yet braking for example, but you are ofcourse engine braking/lifting. How would that apply to the rules? Because you can be certain if that is within the rules, drivers like Max take advantage of that.

Well if it’s before the braking zone but still reacting to the attacking driver, that’s also extremely dirty.

[Ivanhoe]

Well if it’s before the braking zone but still reacting to the attacking driver, that’s also extremely dirty.

The rules specifically state you can move back to the racing line, don’t think the move was dirty in itself. Verstappen should have left a cars width space though.

[P123]

Moving under braking is penalised these days, no? 

[Beri]

Well if it’s before the braking zone but still reacting to the attacking driver, that’s also extremely dirty.

Not against the rules.

[kumo7]

Moving under braking is penalised these days, no? 

no.

[basimi]

Well if it’s before the braking zone but still reacting to the attacking driver, that’s also extremely dirty.

Yes, I agree. But everyone is always referring to moving under braking, so I always assumed that that kind of was the rule. But now I am not certain.

In the end it does not really matter if it is dirty, but if it is allowed, right? Although I would say that you should not want those moves in the first place, because that will stop attacking cars from putting their cars their.

But the last few weeks including today other drivers also moved under or in the braking zone. And I never saw any penalty. Now with Max everyone is screaming again.

[chrcol]

Yes, I agree. But everyone is always referring to moving under braking, so I always assumed that that kind of was the rule. But now I am not certain.

In the end it does not really matter if it is dirty, but if it is allowed, right? Although I would say that you should not want those moves in the first place, because that will stop attacking cars from putting their cars their.

But the last few weeks including today other drivers also moved under or in the braking zone. And I never saw any penalty. Now with Max everyone is screaming again.

Its the same for everyone, so with those other instances, it was also wrong, the difference is this happened at the front under much coverage so it got noticed.

 

The sport needs to enforce its rules or drop them.

[MissingApex]

Oh, Max said he didn’t do it? Gee, sorry then.

Lando said he did move under breaking? Gee, sorry then.

None of us have access tot the data, so how can someone make a claim like this based on a screen?

[speedyenrico]

voted no but only because the subject created by the OP is setting a false narrative in light of today's events

[Beri]

Its the same for everyone, so with those other instances, it was also wrong, the difference is this happened at the front under much coverage so it got noticed.
 
The sport needs to enforce its rules or drop them.

If this is the case, then yes. But clearly this isn't the case here, else it would have been investigated. So, unless you got other telemetry telling a different story than Max' story, it doesn't apply to earlier this afternoon.

[Ivanhoe]

Moving under braking is penalised these days, no? 

Not explicitly, but it is covered. I’d say this was crowding Lando off track. The claims this was a dangerous move by Verstappen are a bit OTT in my opinion. 

 

Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

"However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the stewards."

[Afterburner]

Going to once again advocate for the IndyCar rules—move however you want, just don't do it in reaction (i.e. after your pursuer moves). Super easy to officiate this.

[kumo7]

Lando said he did move under breaking? Gee, sorry then.

None of us have access tot the data, so how can someone make a claim like this based on a screen?

FIA does have data. it must be clear there.

[flyboym3]

Anthony Davidson analysis says he was moving under braking after the 100m board. He was also 'reacting'.

https://youtu.be/T_C...5k8VdegqyARoQM2

I personally thought it wasnt as specific as that and that actually previous clarifications from FIA have said you can't even move in the braking 'zone'.

Edited by flyboym3, 30 June 2024 - 18:05.

[CharlesWinstone]

Well if it’s before the braking zone but still reacting to the attacking driver, that’s also extremely dirty.

If it is not under breaking a driver may move once. So no penalty.
I didn't like the battle between the two though. It was to hard for my taste. From both sides with Max topping it with the (light) move what led to the contact and Lando's DNF. I'm sure both will talk about it.

[PayasYouRace]

Going to once again advocate for the IndyCar rules—move however you want, just don't do it in reaction (i.e. after your pursuer moves). Super easy to officiate this.

It basically covers all eventualities.

[chrcol]

If this is the case, then yes. But clearly this isn't the case here, else it would have been investigated. So, unless you got other telemetry telling a different story than Max' story, it doesn't apply to earlier this afternoon.

What gets investigated is incredibly inconsistent, the sport has rule enforcement problems.

Edited by chrcol, 30 June 2024 - 18:13.

[Risil]

What gets investigated is incredibly inconsistent, the sport has rule enforcement problems.

Also seems someone has been lobbying the mods, the poll got censored.

Oops, that might've been me while editing the thread title. Sorry about that. Can you re-make it?

[WouterF1]

Moving under braking is penalised these days, no? 

Only when it is dangerous so not allways.

[chrcol]

Oops, that might've been me while editing the thread title. Sorry about that. Can you re-make it?

Yeah sure, I also edited my above reply, sorry.

[Risil]

Yeah sure, I also edited my above reply, sorry.

Don't apologize to me! It would almost be less embarrassing if I had censored it.

[chrcol]

Don't apologize to me! It would almost be less embarrassing if I had censored it.

Done.

[Beri]

What gets investigated is incredibly inconsistent, the sport has rule enforcement problems.

Nothing to investigate in this case, if it didn't happen.

[IrvTheSwerve]

No. Defensive driving is almost impossible with DRS. Almost. Don't neuter it do the end.

You do see the problem with moving under braking, don’t you?

[chrcol]

Nothing to investigate in this case, if it didn't happen.

You seem to have a lot of confidence in the stewards, sorry to tell you it did happen, I watched it happen live, and multiple pundits have also confirmed it now including Sky and F1TV.

[ANF]

Five times?

[AncientLurker]

Of course it should be penalized, but they’ve let wonder boy do it his whole career. Why would they stop him now?

[Autodromo]

Nothing to investigate in this case, if it didn't happen.

I guess Max can claim he did not move under braking if he wasn't braking until the 50m board at Turn 3.  I believe that is unlikely.  At the 75m board there was a bout 2.5 car widths between Max the the left white line.  Not so by 25 meters.

[jonklug]

Pushing your rival on the grass at the start. Should it be penalized?

Where was this thread last week?

Waiting for thread number 3 on this incident I am sure we can accomplish it.

[Nigol]

They should either penalize it or get rid of the rule

[Heyli]

They should either penalize it or get rid of the rule

There is no rule for specifically moving under braking... They got rid of it a few years ago already. 

[Gravelngrass]

If you haven’t got a foot on Verstappen's car brake, or, otherwise, access to the telemetry, how can you be sure he moved "under braking". But in these instances groupthink is what counts right?

Edited by Gravelngrass, 30 June 2024 - 19:19.

[Beri]

You seem to have a lot of confidence in the stewards, sorry to tell you it did happen, I watched it happen live, and multiple pundits have also confirmed it now including Sky and F1TV.

And all don't know anything aside from world feed footage until the live telemetry is being released. Which hasn't happened yet as far as I know.
And like said before, that footage doesn't tell the story at all. So its only opinions that we hear pundits exclaim. Same as up here. Same as my opinion that it didn't happen until proven otherwise.

[speedyenrico]

You seem to have a lot of confidence in the stewards, sorry to tell you it did happen, I watched it happen live, and multiple pundits have also confirmed it now including Sky and F1TV.

there was also a voice on F1 TV that was not so outspoken and even argued it was not intentionally by Ver as he wouldnt expect NOR there. So at least be complete in your referencing to certain pundits next time

Edited by speedyenrico, 30 June 2024 - 19:12.

[Heyli]

And all don't know anything aside from world feed footage until the live telemetry is being released. Which hasn't happened yet as far as I know.
And like said before, that footage doesn't tell the story at all. So its only opinions that we hear pundits exclaim. Same as up here. Same as my opinion that it didn't happen until proven otherwise.

I dont really care what telemetry says to be honest. He moved too late, after Norris already aimed for a divebomb and had to take evasive action as a result. Max was lucky that Norris could still respond there. Whether or not Verstappen was already braking at that point is pretty irrelevant.