154 replies to this topic

[smr]

Let me just preface this by saying that I've seen every single qualifying session and every single race of Lando Norris so I'd consider myself well versed to offer my opinion as to how his career has progressed from that first rookie race in Australia to this latest one in Austria. 

Lando has the making of a world champion, that much is clear. The way he drove in Miami was beautiful and showed complete and unflustered composure.

 

Had he been given a couple more laps in Imola, he'd have won. Lap after lap of bearing down on Max Verstappen it was a calm, tactile and smooth operation of just clawing him in, bit by bit. 

 

And at Austria, it was the same, there's a calm, quite confidence about his driving where he has got to the point of not letting anyone or anything phase him. Given the right pit stops, and a fast enough car, and he'll deliver. 

 

There had been talk of him not having enough guile, of perhaps being too soft. Not a bit of it, as evidenced yesterday. Not only is he physically able to deliver on track, he is also proving he is mentally equipped to become a world champion, even if it means sacrificing friendship; 'if he doesn't accept this, then I'm not accepting that' is the ultimate mental state of mind which separates the great from the good, the number 1 drivers, from the number 2. 

 

If you had any doubts about whether Lando was gung ho enough with his race craft and determination that has been well and truly put to bed. Dive bombing is just another term for being that confident on the brakes that you're saying "I'm going to brake later than you, and come out of this corner ahead" and there's nothing which smacks of confidence more, and yesterday he pulled off that exact move in Turn 3 in emphatic style.

 

What particularly impresses me about his driving style is how good his race management has come on now, he knows when to conserve tyre life and look after the rubber, and when to push. It's like watching a game of Chess unfold, strategically planning the final stages of execution, where his final stint is relentless, ratcheting the pressure up bit by bit as he homes in on the car in front. 

 

What we're beginning to see is everything coming together and this is why I think we are genuinely looking at a multiple world champion in the making. Bring on Silverstone.

Edited by smr, 01 July 2024 - 08:40.

[JimmyClark]

Agreed. He will be Britain's next WDC, for sure. To be honest, I think it might well come in 2025, as long as McLaren don't mess up with any of their car development.

 

And I think yesterday will give him that bit of a harder edge in battle now, 'sharpen his tools' if you will, which is what one needs to make that final step. But the speed and mentality is definitely there; his critics have been unduly harsh. 

[Risil]

The guy's on a roll. It's really exciting to see a good driver gain confidence when they get a car worthy of their ability. 

[Lowgrip]

He is too soft and a fan.
He needs to fix this first to reach the next level.
Hopefully yesterday was the the beginning of his transformation.

[Mc_Silver]

There were some people questioning his abilities and lack of ruthlessness as well as killer instinct. This year he proved all his critics wrong by showing everyone he's here to win, nothing else. Proud of him.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 01 July 2024 - 08:48.

[Gareth]

What particularly impresses me about his driving style is how good his race management has come on now, he knows when to conserve tyre life and look after the rubber, and when to push. It's like watching a game of Chess unfold, strategically planning the final stages of execution, where his final stint is relentless, ratcheting the pressure up bit by bit as he homes in on the car in front.

Agree very much with this. And I absolutely believe that in a good enough car, Lando is a guy that will deliver you a championship.

 

In a car that's evenly matched with Max, I'm not too sure, as I don't agree on the mental side. I still think he lacks that killer instinct, and we saw it a couple of times this weekend. He keeps coming off second best in these wheel to wheel battles, unable to make the move stick, because he IMO just doesn't have the ruthless streak that he needs.

 

We will see if this weekend's events change that. I think it's unlikely, because I think it's the sort of thing you have to do on instinct in the heat of battle. If you're thinking about your move - "this time I'll do X because I have to stand up to him" - you're likely already too late and going to look clumsy. This IMO is why a lot of what Rosberg did wheel to wheel (like in Austria vs Hamilton, or Germany vs Verstappen) looked clumsy and got him penalties. So I think it's a tough thing to change. But if Lando wants to beat Max in a straight fight, he's got to develop it.

[Anderis]

Agreed. He will be Britain's next WDC, for sure.

It all depends on how the teams develop their cars and I don't necessarily think that Russell is in significantly worse position than Norris to become the next British WDC.

[JimmyClark]

It all depends on how the teams develop their cars and I don't necessarily think that Russell is in significantly worse position than Norris to become the next British WDC.

 

Russell definitely has it in him, but I just can't see Mercedes producing a consistent, WDC winning car until at least 2026, and by then he will likely have Verstappen next to him (no chance of beating) or Antonelli, who if he lives up to the hype (jury's out obviously), will at least take points out of George to make any season charge difficult. 

 

Lando is the leader of a team on the ascendency, and if they get the car right then he will be very much capable of taking the title. If they fail, then he will get a top seat elsewhere (l bet replacing Max if he moves from RBR). 

 

(Sorry, I probably shouldn't have put 'for sure', I've been watching too many F1 driver interviews   )

[AlexPrime]

Lando is a genuine talent, but so far he has a single win, so he may or may not become champion in the future. Same for George Russell or Piastri IMO. Right now Lando is more developed than Oscar and has a better car than George, so he has the chance to fight Max. But we don't know how successful he would be in the future. Leclerc is a good example that you never know what the future holds. In the past Jenson was considered done, but become champion. Montoya was believed by many, including me, to be a sure bet for at least one championship, but it never came. 

[P123]

All of the last few races should be the 'making of Lando'.  Some opportunities have slipped, some wheel to wheel stuff has gone the wrong way.  Small margins.  I'm not sure his race management is as good as it could be- sometimes his pace appears to be quite erratic from one lap to the next, but that is with one eye on the live timing. 

[SenorSjon]

He seems like a fine Rosberg. Fast, usually reliable, but not a pit-fighter. Under the right conditions he could get a WDC.

[AlexPrime]

Russell definitely has it in him, but I just can't see Mercedes producing a consistent, WDC winning car until at least 2026, and by then he will likely have Verstappen next to him (no chance of beating) or Antonelli, who if he lives up to the hype (jury's out obviously), will at least take points out of George to make any season charge difficult. 

 

Piastri IMO will become a troublesome teammate, not unlike you predict for Antonelli. And for Max and Merc, it may never happen. IMO Verstappen will join Ferrari after Lewis retires.

[vee10]

He might do a Hill or a Button and win a championship in a dominant car but he is nowhere near the greats of the sport and unfortunately he is racing against one of them.

[renzmann]

There were some people questioning his abilities and lack of ruthlessness as well as killer instinct. This year he proved all his critics wrong by showing everyone he's here to win, nothing else. Proud of him.

I disagree, I don't see the killer instinct at all. There've been several occasions where he/his team gave up a GP this year, and Norris was rather accepting of it. A ruthless driver with a killer instinct would have been furious. Even yesterday, my feeling was that he was rather disappointed personally by Verstappen - not angry. On the other hand, I'm not sure a driver needs a killer instinct and ruthlesness in the first place. It does help, but there have been many WDCs without a killer instinct. I reckon Rosberg could be an inspiration for Norris. He too did not have a natural killer instinct, but he still had the ability to motivate himself to do all it takes to win.

 

I do think Norris is the best British driver of his generation. Probably I'd rate him higher than Leclerc, too, even if Leclerc has higher peaks than Norris. As of yet, I don't see the magic dust Verstappen has though. When I think of Norris, I see a fast and consistent driver, but I don't recall truly special drives (as in Verstappen in the Brazilian rain-esque special). Also, looking at the current season, I imagine that if Norris wants to be WDC, he needs a car that is way better than Verstappen's. McLaren have an overall better car than RBR since Miami. By how much is hard to tell - might be just a little faster -, but for the sake of argument let's assume Verstappen and Norris have equal material for some races. Since Miami, Verstappen got 127 points, Norris got 98.

[jonpollak]

I thought we weren’t allowed driver threads ?

Jp

[se7en_24]

I thought we weren’t allowed driver threads ?

Jp

Grass.

[1player]

I am Lando's greatest fan and I'll say... people try to compare it to Max or Lewis, which are some of the greatest drivers this sport has ever seen.

 

In my eyes, Lando has definitely the chops to be a multiple WDC. He'll probably never reach the utter domination and skill of Verstappen, Hamilton or Schumacher, but he might grow into a multiple champion for McLaren. Our new Mika Häkkinen, fighting against the modern Schumacher.

 

That said, one of the reason I'm such a fan of him is that he's still improving every year, and has been doing so for the past 7 season he's in F1. He arrived as a kid with a great career in lower classes, stuck through a period of bad car, won the challenges of being paired with more accomplished teammates, and now he's facing the ultimate challenge of trying to win the damn thing.

 

The kid is 24, and he's probably got 10 years still in this sport. I don't think we have seen his final evolution just yet.

Edited by 1player, 01 July 2024 - 09:56.

[Beri]

I thought we weren’t allowed driver threads ?
Jp

This indeed. Or is it going to be a case of an inconsistent FIA (Forum Investigation Agency) that this is allowed?

[P123]

This indeed. Or is it going to be a case of an inconsistent FIA (Forum Investigation Agency) that this is allowed?

 

Driver Vs driver, surely.  There are lots of threads relating to specific topics on specific drivers.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

The first thing that any championship capable driver needs to realize, is that fairness is above all.  You can be a tough competitor and still remain a fair driver.

 

Unfortunately over the years we have seen some talented drivers turning into championship's slaves and would do anything to win that mortal championships.

 

Lando Norris is a fair driver.

Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 01 July 2024 - 09:58.

[AlexPrime]

The first thing that any championship capable driver needs to realize, is that fairness is above all.  You can be a tough competitor and still remain a fair driver.

 

Unfortunately over the years we have seen some talented drivers turning into championship's slaves

This happened after the cars became relatively safe. Since then, top champs are usually ruthless. In the times of old, drivers were fair because one bad crash meant that you could die.

[sofarapartguy]

Lando is quick, reliable and experienced by now. But the issue is he is not fighting Charles or Lewis, he is fighting Max for wins now. Which would require a completely different approach and redefining his driving standarts. You can not fight Max by being gentlemen unfortunately. And usually being able to drive overly hard and stand your ground is the last bit needed to actually win anything in F1. 

 

So far I see no evidence Lando has this last bit. He failed twice during sprint and race in Austria to deal with Max. Time will tell. 

[1player]

Lando is quick, reliable and experienced by now. But the issue is he is not fighting Charles or Lewis, he is fighting Max for wins now. Which would require a completely different approach and redefining his driving standarts. You can not fight Max by being gentlemen unfortunately. And usually being able to drive overly hard and stand your ground is the last bit needed to actually win anything in F1. 

 

So far I see no evidence Lando has this last bit. He failed twice during sprint and race in Austria to deal with Max. Time will tell. 

Drivers learn. Faced enough times with Max, he'll find the way to get under his skin and get through unscathed. Max is human after all, and he seems to crack a bit under pressure.

[sofarapartguy]

Drivers learn. Faced enough times with Max, he'll find the way to get under his skin and get through unscathed. Max is human after all, and he seems to crack a bit under pressure.

 

I do hope Lando will improve and figure out the way he can actually race Max. Max will only get more dirty the more pressure he feels.

 

I do reckon Russel is more error prone but at the moment I believe he has more guts facing someone like Verstappen. Even if they crash he would crash on his terms. Which I respect. 

[PayasYouRace]

I thought we weren’t allowed driver threads ?

Jp

The house rules permit threads relating to a specific talking point.

[Claudius]

Like others have said, I’m not sure Lando has that killer instinct that I see in Max, Lec and Russell.
Hopefully he learns to handle Max and doesn’t concede an inch.

I like Max but he’s over the top when being overtaken.

[noikeee]

People wildly overestimate how much racecraft matters to be a top racing driver. It's more like the cherry on top that gives you a few extra points per season. What matters is, are you fast enough. Vettel won 4 championships because he was very fast with a particular car that was also very fast, whilst having frankly poor racecraft.

What I want to get at is: what will make or break Lando as a champion, is how fast he really is (hard to gauge against an inexperienced driver) and will he manage to drag his ass to really fast cars or not. All this talk of whether he can psych out Max on wheel to wheel racing or not, is just the last 5%. It can matter but most of the time does not.

Edited by noikeee, 01 July 2024 - 10:17.

[1player]

People wildly overestimate how much racecraft matters to be a top racing driver. It's more like the cherry on top that gives you a few extra points per season. What matters is, are you fast enough. Vettel won 4 championships because he was very fast with a particular car that was also very fast, whilst having frankly poor racecraft.

What I want to get at is: what will make or break Lando as a champion, is how fast he really is (hard to gauge against an inexperienced driver) and will he manage to drag his ass to really fast cars or not. All this talk of whether he can psych out Max on wheel to wheel racing or not, is just the last 5%. It can matter but most of the time does not.

More than "how fast he really is", is "how fast is the car".

 

If the McLaren actually had 2 or 3 tenths over the Red Bull, none of the mess of yesterday would've happened. He'd have closed the gap, and eaten him with an easy DRS overtake as we have seen the Red Bull do over the past 2 or 3 years and the Mercedes before that.

 

When the difference between the cars is so minimal, if any, only the reckless kamikaze moves are possible.

[PayasYouRace]

He seems like a fine Rosberg. Fast, usually reliable, but not a pit-fighter. Under the right conditions he could get a WDC.

Nobody wants people fighting in the pits.

[PayasYouRace]

I do find the “killer instinct” stuff funny. History shows that you don’t need to be a wanker on track to become a WDC. You can be fast, successful and a good sportsman. For some reason a lot of you consider good sportsmanship a weakness.

[Beri]

The house rules permit threads relating to a specific talking point.

Which in this case is to eulogize Norris? Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that he will become a World Champion one day and that he is really good. It's only that it are quite the double standards. Because if one would open up a similar thread on Verstappen or Hamilton, such a thread would be locked with immediate effect because of the backlash it will get.

[PayasYouRace]

Please don’t discuss moderation in the public forum. Do so via PM.

[sofarapartguy]

People wildly overestimate how much racecraft matters to be a top racing driver. It's more like the cherry on top that gives you a few extra points per season. What matters is, are you fast enough. Vettel won 4 championships because he was very fast with a particular car that was also very fast, whilst having frankly poor racecraft.

What I want to get at is: what will make or break Lando as a champion, is how fast he really is (hard to gauge against an inexperienced driver) and will he manage to drag his ass to really fast cars or not. All this talk of whether he can psych out Max on wheel to wheel racing or not, is just the last 5%. It can matter but most of the time does not.

 

You need to be ruthless enough so drivers like Max show some respect and not just close the gap every time they feel like it. 

[1player]

I do find the “killer instinct” stuff funny. History shows that you don’t need to be a wanker on track to become a WDC. You can be fast, successful and a good sportsman. For some reason a lot of you consider good sportsmanship a weakness.

People grown on movies and anime like a loud and macho character these days. Intelligence and poise isn't very camera-friendly.

[Claudius]

I do find the “killer instinct” stuff funny. History shows that you don’t need to be a wanker on track to become a WDC. You can be fast, successful and a good sportsman. For some reason a lot of you consider good sportsmanship a weakness.

Killer instinct is for me at least to be good at overtaking and take chances when the opportunity arises. Not waiting forever behind. Or taking outside lines when possible. Or how Max overtook Lando in the sprint.

Far cry from what Max did yesterday.

[Claudius]

More than "how fast he really is", is "how fast is the car".

If the McLaren actually had 2 or 3 tenths over the Red Bull, none of the mess of yesterday would've happened. He'd have closed the gap, and eaten him with an easy DRS overtake as we have seen the Red Bull do over the past 2 or 3 years and the Mercedes before that.

When the difference between the cars is so minimal, if any, only the reckless kamikaze moves are possible.

You are talking about about fast drivers in the fastest car. Which is all good.
I like fast racers that can come on top despite not having the fastest car. Without going over the limit.
But That’s just me.

[Beri]

Please don’t discuss moderation in the public forum. Do so via PM.

If you unblock me, I will. Let me know when that has happened.

[PayasYouRace]

Killer instinct is for me at least to be good at overtaking and take chances when the opportunity arises. Not waiting forever behind. Or taking outside lines when possible. Or how Max overtook Lando in the sprint.

Far cry from what Max did yesterday.

It’s also how Norris overtook Russell in Spain, or how he didn’t yield to Verstappen’s sideswipe yesterday. Lando definitely has it.

[Claudius]

People grown on movies and anime like a loud and macho character these days. Intelligence and poise isn't very camera-friendly.

Silly analogy.

[Claudius]

It’s also how Norris overtook Russell in Spain, or how he didn’t yield to Verstappen’s sideswipe yesterday. Lando definitely has it.

Ok, I hope so. He’s gonna need it more than ever when fighting Max.

[PayasYouRace]

Ok, I hope so. He’s gonna need it more than ever when fighting Max.

Or possibly less of it, so he doesn’t get hit as often.

[F1Frog]

In my opinion, the top four drivers in Formula 1 right now are now experienced enough to be considered to be at their peak and compared with the greats of Formula 1, rather than 'too early to judge.' Max Verstappen is better than Hamilton and on par with Schumacher, in my opinion. I would back Schumacher to have a slight advantage for outright speed but he was far more error-prone than Verstappen and I think this makes Verstappen a slightly better driver. In fact, only Jim Clark and Stirling Moss would now rank above Verstappen in my personal all-time rankings. Lando Norris has destroyed Daniel Ricciardo to a much greater extent than Verstappen did and is now easily beating Piastri who is inexperienced but has an incredible junior record. I think his tyre-management skills are top class and probably better than Verstappen's, but I do think he is a bit lacking in wheel-to-wheel. I would suggest that if he were teammate to Verstappen, it would go similarly to Hamilton vs Rosberg and I think Norris is now perhaps slightly better than Rosberg, who I rate higher than most so I will also say I think that Norris is better than Mika Hakkinen, Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve (I rate these three similarly). Then Charles Leclerc and George Russell are also top level drivers who I think are about on par with Hakkinen, Hill and Villeneuve. Leclerc beat Vettel in their first season as teammates, despite being inexperienced, and then annihilated him in their second, Russell has matched one of the greats of the sport over three years as teammates. That may not have been peak Vettel and Hamilton but it still counts for something. When you add that Hamilton and Alonso are still going, albeit past their best, and Piastri isn't too far off Norris, and Sainz has given all three of Verstappen, Norris and Leclerc a good run for their money, I think this is one of the strongest grids there has ever been. I think 1967 was probably the last one better than this, when peak Clark, Surtees, Hill and Gurney were all racing, Stewart and Rindt were approaching their peaks and Hulme and Brabham were also there battling for the title. The mid-1980s with Prost, Senna, Rosberg, Piquet, Mansell, Berger is the other top era.

 

I think that any top driver could win a title in the right circumstances, but Norris is one of those that would be extremely unlucky not to win one, while for Leclerc and Russell it could go either way. I actually think that Stirling Moss, Gilles Villeneuve and perhaps Dan Gurney are the only non-champions I would now consider better than Lando Norris.

[Beri]

Or possibly less of it, so he doesn’t get hit as often.

In that case he will never get by Verstappen.

[Gareth]

I do find the “killer instinct” stuff funny. History shows that you don’t need to be a wanker on track to become a WDC. You can be fast, successful and a good sportsman. For some reason a lot of you consider good sportsmanship a weakness.

I agree - it's moves like Max's repass in the Sprint Race this weekend, not like Max's blocks yesterday, that I'm talking about when I say I think Lando lacks that killer instinct.

[PayasYouRace]

In that case he will never get by Verstappen.

That’s fine. I already hold Norris in higher esteem than Verstappen because he isn’t a bully on track. YMMV.

[Beri]

If you think there are any bullies on track under the current set of drivers, I am feeling truly sorry for you. Because I can't imagine how you would have fared as a younger fan amongst drivers like Schumacher, Piquet, Senna or Irvine. All drivers who were a tad worse in their moral behavior than the antics that Verstappen is blamed for.

That being said, Norris is a very clean driver. He could have passed Verstappen twice yesterday after running him wide. Yet he singlehandedly gave the position either back or held back so he didn't pass Verstappen. Which was refreshing to see.

Edited by Beri, 01 July 2024 - 10:51.

[messy]

I've always thought Lando was maybe 'the one' out of that post-Verstappen generation right from his days of British F4 etc, he's got that raw speed and he's got the kind of personality that just makes you think he's destined for the top. To a point anyway - maybe people argue the thing that's held him back in the past is that he's a bit too nice, a bit too self-critical - but I like that personally and maybe that's what's kept him so loyal to McLaren and prepared to take the longer route to success, growing with the same team as they gradually move to the front. A bit Hakkinen-esque, except given he started F1 when he was like 12 or something, it means he's still very young when it all comes good rather than ready for a final two or three season golden spell before retiring.

 

Personally I think he's 100% a future World Champion and maybe even as soon as 2025. He's hitting that level already, constantly the guy taking the fight to Max and it only takes like a 1% swing for the orange car to be ahead of the blue one rather than the one giving chase, a swing that looks quite likely to happen very soon based on momentum and everything we've heard about the development potential of the two packages. 

 

Leclerc is incredibly fast over one lap but until Ferrari stop being so Ferrari about everything it's really hard to see him challenging to be WDC (or to know whether he's actually ready to be at that level himself). All I'll say is that the gap between Lando and Sainz on raw speed and the gap between Leclerc and Sainz now aren't that different, and I think Lando is a far, far better driver now than he was in those first two seasons 2019/20. Russell? I'd always have rated Lando slightly ahead and I think that gap had widened over the last two seasons. 

 

So yeah, if we're looking for the guy who's going to step up and fight Max for the WDC I think he's here and it's great to watch the battle kinda initialising right now. 

Edited by messy, 01 July 2024 - 10:51.

[SenorSjon]

That’s fine. I already hold Norris in higher esteem than Verstappen because he isn’t a bully on track. YMMV.

 

Norris never needed to be. And when he does a 100% pass like in Miami, Verstappen will also just yield position.

[SenorSjon]

If you think there are any bullies on track under the current set of drivers, I am feeling truly sorry for you. Because I can't imagine how you would have fared as a younger fan amongst drivers like Schumacher, Piquet, Senna or Irvine. All drivers who were a tad worse in their moral behavior than the antics that Verstappen is blamed for.

That being said, Norris is a very clean driver. He could have passed Verstappen twice yesterday after running him wide. Yet he singlehandedly gave the position either back or held back so he didn't pass Verstappen. Which was refreshing to see.

 

Because he pushed off Verstappen once (penalized before this weekend) and the other one was him overshooting the corner, making it another track limit strike. By overshooting, he also hindered Verstappens exit.

[noikeee]

If you think there are any bullies on track under the current set of drivers, I am feeling truly sorry for you. Because I can't imagine how you would have fared as a younger fan amongst drivers like Schumacher, Piquet, Senna or Irvine. All drivers who were a tad worse in their moral behavior than the antics that Verstappen is blamed for.

I disagree. The new generation are all much nicer off the track, but Max in particular has been an on-track bully well on par with Senna and Schumacher (both whom largely started this spiral to more and more aggressive driving), though Max has slightly mellowed out the last couple of seasons (probably because he had nobody to fight with).

The rest of the grid, apart from maybe Magnussen and Stroll, is fairly clean and respects their peers, however they do race under modern F1 rules of "if I'm ahead by the apex, I can push you off track, **** you" - something me and others have been fighting for literally over a decade in this forum, see that "close racing and space" (or whatever it's called) thread that gets bumped every few months with every incident like this. The guilty drivers are basically everyone, because it's the rules. Back in the days of Piquet and Senna you didn't do this because you'd kill the guy in the other car who'd be off into the grass.