387 replies to this topic

[Flyhigh]

Regarding Norris the big question that makes it harder to assess his "pure speed" is the Mclaren car. If the Mclaren car is a rocket clearly above the rest, Norris speed is not that impressive, if Mclaren has been a great car, but not in another class regarding the rest, then would agree about his very impressive speed, ultimately I am not sure yet. 

Is hard to judge when the other driver is Piastri, who started his career with Mclaren as a rookie and no other benchmark. In regards to Rosberg, I think he is still clearly a more complete and stronger driver than Norris until now in their careers. Rosberg never had such a favorable condition Norris is having, in the best car against a rookie, letting this rookie grow, develop and build his confidence over him as Norris is letting Piastri.

Rosberg pretty much always dominated his teammates and only stopped  when was paired against a GOAT contender Hamilton, which was when he finally got a Championship car too. In my view, Rosberg against someone like Piastri, which was not that impressive in his first 2 seasons, would have stumped his number 1 status clearly and done better than Norris, which is letting the Rookie shine and beginning to look like potential n.1    

 

Edited by Flyhigh, 24 April 2025 - 19:28.

[PlatenGlass]

The top three drivers currently would have to be Verstappen, Russell and Leclerc. It could well be the case that the world champion at the end of the season, whether Norris or Piastri, doesn't make it into many top 3s in the subjective driver ranking which would be interesting. The last time I think I wouldn't place the world champion in the top three best drivers would be Nelson Piquet in 1987.

The worst WDC performance I've seen is Villeneuve in 1997 and I don't think it's probably that close. So whether he makes the top 3 is more down to the quality of the opposition that year rather than his own performances. There are several drivers you could put ahead but might be debated.

[DW46]

Villeneuve achieved more in 33 races than all bar 3 drivers on the current grid.

Rosberg faced the two most successful drivers of all time in equal cars over 7 seasons and came out 4-3 up.

Norris got beaten by Sainz twice, lost to Verstappen in superior machinery and threw away a 23 point lead over his less experienced teammate in 4 rounds. Again whilst in dominant machinery.

Norris is a good driver but these comparisons to proven world champions is like comparing Apples and pears.

[kumo7]

Villeneuve achieved more in 33 races than all bar 3 drivers on the current grid.

Rosberg faced the two most successful drivers of all time in equal cars over 7 seasons and came out 4-3 up.

Norris got beaten by Sainz twice, lost to Verstappen in superior machinery and threw away a 23 point lead over his less experienced teammate in 4 rounds. Again whilst in dominant machinery.

Norris is a good driver but these comparisons to proven world champions is like comparing Apples and pears.

both jacques and nico took “only” one WDC. so what is your point?

[Ultravox]

The worst WDC performance I've seen is Villeneuve in 1997 and I don't think it's probably that close. So whether he makes the top 3 is more down to the quality of the opposition that year rather than his own performances. There are several drivers you could put ahead but might be debated.

 

Kimi 2007 was far worse along with Mika 99. JV's season was not bad at all and better than many actually. He dominated his team mate and had a bunch of back luck.

[kumo7]

I say when a person takes WDC that us already a great achievement.

[DW46]

both jacques and nico took “only” one WDC. so what is your point?

That it’s one more than Norris has taken so referring to them two as weak when they are both more decorated than most of the grid demonstrates a hint of recency bias.

[Nemo1965]

I have to say that I feel for Norris. He had to have a lot of patience until McLaren built a car that was really a contender for race-wins every race, and his long-time connection with McLaren must have instilled in him the idea that he and and only he would be the lead driver for McLaren if they started to win again. Add to that the stupid move from Zak to say that after Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton now the time would come for Norris and you create a very vulnerable situation in your head.

 

And now there is Piastri, who is in the same car, is very close or equal in speed, and who has no pressure of the expectations I describe above. That must be tough.

 

It has happened before, of course, that a driver who built a team up gets 'an interloper' to deal with. Teo Fabi with Berger at Benetton (did not end well for Teo), Andretti at Lotus with Peterson (not happy, but demanded a number 2 status for the Swede), Jones at Williams with Reutemann (dito), and for me the most evident and comparable: Rosberg and Mansell at Williams in 1985. I was amazed back then that Rosberg just outright complained in Grand Prix International about Frank Williams signing Mansell. In 1986 Rosberg went to McLaren and ended his career there. 

 

Lando is young and smart enough to bounce back. But in my view he has to throw off the assumption that McLaren is still his team and his team alone and stop expressing his doubts in public. I know, I know, we are living in time of 'honesty' and 'men should be allowed to show their feelings too' but F1 or any top-level sports is not the place to do that - if you want to win. 

Edited by Nemo1965, 25 April 2025 - 05:52.

[RedRabbit]

Eh? Norris has had a podium capable car at nearly every race since mid way through 2023. It was podium capable in 2021 too.

And he has had the best car for a full season now of some 24 races.

That's more than a few other drivers like Leclerc or Russell have enjoyed.

Kinda making out like he been enduring the Honda McLaren's and grinding away to bring them to the front.

[Nemo1965]

Eh? Norris has had a podium capable car at nearly every race since mid way through 2023. It was podium capable in 2021 too.

And he has had the best car for a full season now of some 24 races.

That's more than a few other drivers like Leclerc or Russell have enjoyed.

Kinda making out like he been enduring the Honda McLaren's and grinding away to bring them to the front.

 

In hindsight: yeah. But I myself really did not believe that any team with a customer-engine would ever be winning a championship again. I think McLaren did an amazing job. But let us not imagine that we all saw that coming (except the McLaren-fans, but even the Williams-fans are believing Williams will once be a leading team in 2026).

[PlatenGlass]

Kimi 2007 was far worse along with Mika 99. JV's season was not bad at all and better than many actually. He dominated his team mate and had a bunch of back luck.

Kimi in 2007 (and beyond) wasn't as impressive as he had been at McLaren but it was by no means a horrific campaign.

Hakkinen's 1999 wasn't as bad as some would have it. He had those two crashes from the lead obviously but it's not unusual for a driver to crash out in a WDC campaign, so one extra crash doesn't relegate from being normal to one of the worst ever. Schumacher who missed nearly half the season also managed to crash out of the lead in Canada, so proportionally it's not much different.

The main reason Irvine got so close was the failures in Australia, Silverstone, and Germany plus the tap from Coulthard in Austria which cost him 4 wins. As well as the points he lost, Irvine won 3 of those so that caused a massive swing.

1999 was also one of Hakkinen's better years for pace, without random slumps and he was quite impressive in that respect. Villeneuve blew hot and cold in 1997 as well as crashing/spinning out of 3 races by my count including at Germany where he was nowhere having also qualified half a second behind Frentzen.

To get back "on topic" to the sub-discussion I'd put Schumacher and both McLaren drivers ahead of Villeneuve in 1997. Coulthard had a good year for him. Hakkinen had a slow first half but from Silverstone onwards he was on it pretty much everywhere.

[PayasYouRace]

To get back on topic you want to be talking about Lando Norris.

[kumo7]

That it’s one more than Norris has taken so referring to them two as weak when they are both more decorated than most of the grid demonstrates a hint of recency bias.

and he will take one, this year.

[kumo7]

I have to say that I feel for Norris. He had to have a lot of patience until McLaren built a car that was really a contender for race-wins every race, and his long-time connection with McLaren must have instilled in him the idea that he and and only he would be the lead driver for McLaren if they started to win again. Add to that the stupid move from Zak to say that after Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton now the time would come for Norris and you create a very vulnerable situation in your head.

And now there is Piastri, who is in the same car, is very close or equal in speed, and who has no pressure of the expectations I describe above. That must be tough.

It has happened before, of course, that a driver who built a team up gets 'an interloper' to deal with. Teo Fabi with Berger at Benetton (did not end well for Teo), Andretti at Lotus with Peterson (not happy, but demanded a number 2 status for the Swede), Jones at Williams with Reutemann (dito), and for me the most evident and comparable: Rosberg and Mansell at Williams in 1985. I was amazed back then that Rosberg just outright complained in Grand Prix International about Frank Williams signing Mansell. In 1986 Rosberg went to McLaren and ended his career there.

Lando is young and smart enough to bounce back. But in my view he has to throw off the assumption that McLaren is still his team and his team alone and stop expressing his doubts in public. I know, I know, we are living in time of 'honesty' and 'men should be allowed to show their feelings too' but F1 or any top-level sports is not the place to do that - if you want to win.

you do not have to pity norris, as he is alive and kicking.

long story is a weak argument.

Edited by kumo7, 25 April 2025 - 12:29.

[DW46]

and he will take one, this year.

If only he had your confidence. 😂

[Nemo1965]

you do not have to pity norris, as he is alive and kicking.

long story is a weak argument.

You are welcome.

[kumo7]

If only he had your confidence. 😂

Zandvoort 2024.

[AlcidioG]

Zandvoort 2024.

 So 1 race in where he had the best car and started on pole and won by 23 seconds is all your evidence? I'm not saying he won't win te WDC this year or ever, but if you're going to use ONE race there's not much else to discuss.

[kumo7]

So 1 race in where he had the best car and started on pole and won by 23 seconds is all your evidence? I'm not saying he won't win te WDC this year or ever, but if you're going to use ONE race there's not much else to discuss.

the most significant performance demands not entirely the performance of the machine, team nor the person. it is all.
Norris has been very consistent all the season and have scored more points every season.
one of his strength is in his growth.

Having said this, The most posters posts his opinion on norris’ recent performance as’ lack of confidence’, but none seemed to listen that norris says that he is NOT ruined by the lack of confidence. he recognize some but he says he is confident enough.

posters choose his truth depending on his perception. not evaluates what it is, so in my opinion, the most effective arguments is to give a single fact through which posters can rethink his frame.
if not, i do think the ’discussion’ will be just endless writing which ending up in freedom in opinion.

[Dan333SP]

Endless writing expression freely held opinions is literally the point of a forum…

[danmills]

For everything else black and white, there's Wikipedia. 

[cjm321190]

If you look at Australia 2025 Piastri bounced back, Norris gives the impression he would not given the same disaster .

Long season ahead. The Media build him up constantly but they will be first to trash him.

He needs a core group and be more ‘i do not care attitude’.

Piastri is going to be a fantastic driver IMHO. To beat him is going to be difficult and great for us fans. We need to enjoy the journey.

[Mc_Silver]

If you look at Australia 2025 Piastri bounced back, Norris gives the impression he would not given the same disaster .

Long season ahead. The Media build him up constantly but they will be first to trash him.

He needs a core group and be more ‘i do not care attitude’.

Piastri is going to be a fantastic driver IMHO. To beat him is going to be difficult and great for us fans. We need to enjoy the journey.

Lando/Oscar pairing has great potential to be another Hamilton/Alonso, Hamilton/Button, Senna/Prost sort of rivalry but in a more respectful manner. Both drivers have strengths and weaknesses and they complement each other pretty well which could only be a good thing for McLaren. It's good news for Max and others in terms of driver's championship though.

[PrinceBira]

Why is Mclaren so adamant on sticking two the whole equality / 2 lead driver thing?

[NotAPineapple]

Why is Mclaren so adamant on sticking two the whole equality / 2 lead driver thing?

 

That's how all the contracts have been layed out. Not a lot they can do until the relevant contracts expire. 

[kumo7]

Why is Mclaren so adamant on sticking two the whole equality / 2 lead driver thing?

Neither have won the title yet, but both could win it sooner than later.

[AlexPrime]

Lando/Oscar pairing has great potential to be another Hamilton/Alonso, Hamilton/Button, Senna/Prost sort of rivalry but in a more respectful manner. 

Like Damon and JV, but played over multiple seasons.

[MikeTekRacing]

Why is Mclaren so adamant on sticking two the whole equality / 2 lead driver thing?

because they have 2 good drivers and it's not clear who should they be backing up.

Which is both a very good and a very bad problem to have.

[cjm321190]

Why is Mclaren so adamant on sticking two the whole equality / 2 lead driver thing?

That is a good point. Mclaren should back Oscar and make Norris the number 2. Oscar has more wins this season and bounced back from Australia, he also races tough and makes less mistakes.

Or was the backing a single driver just a way of slowing Oscar down for Norris?

2 fast drivers is fine no No1 status until last 1/4 season if one driver is far ahead.

[PlatenGlass]

Why is Mclaren so adamant on sticking two the whole equality / 2 lead driver thing?

It's not a McLaren thing. It seems to me that most teams do it.

[Sterzo]

It's not a McLaren thing. It seems to me that most teams do it.

Which makes total sense. A team can't speed a driver up, they can only slow one down. Ordering that from the pits is a last resort, only used when specific circumstances absolutely need it.

[AlexPrime]

That is a good point. Mclaren should back Oscar and make Norris the number 2. 

Preposterous. And I am an Oscar fan.

[AlcidioG]

Preposterous. And I am an Oscar fan.

 

Judging by the rest of his comment I think he was being sarcastic.

[jacdaniel]

For me, Landos mentality is just all wrong. I criticised him in the past for never bothering to defend when he had a less competitive car. Now I see quotes from him wondering why Max was defending against him yesterday. Because that’s what a champion does!

Sure Max could have just rolled over and let McLaren through meekly. I’m sure McLaren would love it if he did that. That kind of mentality is exactly why he has less wins than his rookie team mate in F1

[AlexPrime]

For me, Landos mentality is just all wrong. I criticised him in the past for never bothering to defend when he had a less competitive car. Now I see quotes from him wondering why Max was defending against him yesterday. Because that’s what a champion does!

Sure Max could have just rolled over and let McLaren through meekly. I’m sure McLaren would love it if he did that. That kind of mentality is exactly why he has less wins than his rookie team mate in F1

Lando can be very unpleasant when he sulks and whines about others. But in the same time he berates himself badly. As Zak said, he just needs to get it out of the system, it's his character.
I like Oscar icy persona more, but sometimes you really need to get it out. I guess they all have their own ways of dealing with pressure.

[Analog]

For the events yesterday, I blame the team a bit. They should have made it completely clear for their drivers what the new guidelines meant and gone through a number of possible T1-T3  scenarios. The one that actually played out was something that was pretty high on my list and definitely one that Lando should have been prepared for.

[404KF2]

He seems to be very tentative and suspect that he will never be WDC.

[Mc_Silver]

Lando did the right thing to keep it clean and avoid a crash with Max. He has to think long game. On the other hand, Max knew if he had lost his lead it would be game over for him so typical Max defence showed up. Lando seemed a bit more comfortable with the car in Miami and was the faster driver of the two. He just needs to tidy up qualifyings then results will come by themselves. We are only 1/4 of the season and 18 races to go.