38 replies to this topic

[Alfisti]

Many moons ago I said the way drivers were allowed to catch up to the back of the safety car pack at insane speeds with marshals and equipment on track was going to lead to a "big one". Unfortunately, it happened to young Bianchi.

 

FFWD to 2023/24 and I am not sure how many more races the FIA needs to see where drivers are on slow down or warm up laps in live sessions and are loitering at key corners. I don't really care if it's a warm up or slow down, something must be done before this ends in a plane crash because it is absolutely going to end in a plane crash. It is ridiculous right now, week after week, after week. 

Edited by Alfisti, 05 July 2024 - 17:45.

[dweller23]

Those are some of the best drivers in the world, they earn millions and the safety of the sport is much higher than majority of the other jobs in the world. If something happens then it happens, as long as nothing happens to the volunteering marshals and the spectators, it should be just a working accident which happen in every single job.

[ANF]

Slightly OT: The safety car at Suzuka was deployed 58 seconds after Bianchi had hit the crane. Bianchi aquaplaned off the track on the rivers at Dunlop Corner under double yellow flags.

[Myrvold]

Like I wrote in the discussion about... eh, either the Norris v Verstappen or the Verstappen moving under braking, The FIA is very reactive, not proactive. So nothing will happen until something big happens. So we'll just have to wait for something major to happen, and then changes will be made. How long? It can happen tomorrow or in 2050.

 

Genuine question though. Is there any actual reason to go so slow, other than "cool down the tyres and not wear them more than needed"? It's not like it was ages ago where turbos need a slow-lap to cool down. If there's no reliability-reason for it, I don't see why they can't be much stricter, e.g "opposite" VSC rules, where you cannot go below a certain delta in any sectors.

 

EDIT: Though. Just like with reactive moves in racing situations. IndyCar (And now also NASCAR IIRC) has the solution. Laps start and end at the last sector before pit entry in practice and qual. So if they are not doing hotlaps, it is straight to pit. Easy peasy.

Edited by Myrvold, 05 July 2024 - 18:11.

[PayasYouRace]

The last "big one" of this type was Zolder in 1982, over 40 years ago. I just don't think it's as big a problem as the OP is making out. Sometimes we have some near misses, but generally the drivers seem able to avoid problems. There is a minimum speed laid down too. No matter what you do, you're going to have slower cars being caught by faster ones.

[PayasYouRace]

Genuine question though. Is there any actual reason to go so slow, other than "cool down the tyres and not wear them more than needed"? It's not like it was ages ago where turbos need a slow-lap to cool down. If there's no reliability-reason for it, I don't see why they can't be much stricter, e.g "opposite" VSC rules, where you cannot go below a certain delta in any sectors.

 

EDIT: Though. Just like with reactive moves in racing situations. IndyCar (And now also NASCAR IIRC) has the solution. Laps start and end at the last sector before pit entry in practice and qual. So if they are not doing hotlaps, it is straight to pit. Easy peasy.

 

With the hybrids, they use a slow lap to recharge the battery fully. If you're doing qualifying sims, you have to do that.

 

Yes, the timing line ahead of the pit entry takes away the problems of in laps, but not out laps and recharge laps.

[Alfisti]

Bigger issue than it is, did you see the two incidents in FP1 today? This won't end well, guarantee it. You can't have drivers almost stopped on near blind 280KMH corners. 

Edited by Alfisti, 05 July 2024 - 18:29.

[PayasYouRace]

Bigger issue than it is, did you see the two incidents in FP1 today? This won't end well, guarantee it. You can't have drivers almost stopped on near blind 280KMH corners. 

 

Yes I did. In both cases the closing driver was able to avoid a collision with nothing more than a bit of dented pride.

[Myrvold]

With the hybrids, they use a slow lap to recharge the battery fully. If you're doing qualifying sims, you have to do that.

 

Yes, the timing line ahead of the pit entry takes away the problems of in laps, but not out laps and recharge laps.

 

They don't need to do such slow laps though? They surely can run in recharge mode, but other than that run normally?

 

 

Yes I did. In both cases the closing driver was able to avoid a collision with nothing more than a bit of dented pride.

 

Isn't this a bit like Pre-Bianchi? Even though 1994 was closer than 1982. It's been fine for so many years, so no problem, until it is a problem?

[LolaB0860]

There is a minimum speed laid down too

And the stewards never give anything more than slap to the wrist for these offenders. Until big crash happens someday that is

[PayasYouRace]

They don't need to do such slow laps though? They surely can run in recharge mode, but other than that run normally?

 

 

 

Isn't this a bit like Pre-Bianchi? Even though 1994 was closer than 1982. It's been fine for so many years, so no problem, until it is a problem?

 

To address your first one, they go as low as they need to, and are allowed to. Remember that there is a maximum lap time. The Stroll near miss today happened because of a choice made on Stroll’s side, either himself or the pit wall, to go slow and let Leclerc go by earlier. A misjudgement for sure, but not some intrinsic danger in the system. With Hadjar, an inexperienced rookie didn’t see where the closing car was.

 

For the second point. There were cases of cars hitting other vehicles before Bianchi. Hamilton hit the tractor at the Nürburgring. Heidfled took the door off the medical car in Brazil. Those accidents were happening, they just weren’t serious because we got lucky for a while. I don’t think this is comparable.

 

I’m struggling to see the solution other than only letting one car at a time on track. That or remove all s-bends which cause the racing line to switch rapidly from one side of the track to the other. Otherwise drivers will have to be aware of what’s around them, both in front and behind,

 

And the stewards never give anything more than slap to the wrist for these offenders. Until big crash happens someday that is

Did we have any offenders today?

[Myrvold]

To address your first one, they go as low as they need to, and are allowed to. Remember that there is a maximum lap time. The Stroll near miss today happened because of a choice made on Stroll’s side, either himself or the pit wall, to go slow and let Leclerc go by earlier. A misjudgement for sure, but not some intrinsic danger in the system. With Hadjar, an inexperienced rookie didn’t see where the closing car was.

 

For the second point. There were cases of cars hitting other vehicles before Bianchi. Hamilton hit the tractor at the Nürburgring. Heidfled took the door off the medical car in Brazil. Those accidents were happening, they just weren’t serious because we got lucky for a while. I don’t think this is comparable.

 

I’m struggling to see the solution other than only letting one car at a time on track. That or remove all s-bends which cause the racing line to switch rapidly from one side of the track to the other. Otherwise drivers will have to be aware of what’s around them, both in front and behind,

 

Did we have any offenders today?

 

There's not a maximum lap-time on Fridays as the maximum time is not set until after FP2. And, per event notes, it's only applicable in Qual and for Recon laps.

 

So, we had near misses pre-Bianchi, and we've arguably had near misses in terms of speed differences as well. All it takes is a Dixon - Power at Road America situation. Like I've said, the FIA is reactive. They won't do anything until something happens. 

[PayasYouRace]

There's not a maximum lap-time on Fridays as the maximum time is not set until after FP2. And, per event notes, it's only applicable in Qual and for Recon laps.

 

So, we had near misses pre-Bianchi, and we've arguably had near misses in terms of speed differences as well. All it takes is a Dixon - Power at Road America situation. Like I've said, the FIA is reactive. They won't do anything until something happens. 

Apart from extending the maximum laptime to all sessions, which I wasn’t aware that it didn’t apply on Friday, I don’t think there’s more to do here.

 

Those weren’t near missed before Bianchi. They were actual accidents. Meanwhile we’re talking about a less than once in 40 years occurrence. In cars that are significantly safer I might add.

[PlatenGlass]

I haven't seen any of today's running but I have previously seen cars going very slowly off the racing line at times while other cars race past, and I don't really see why it's any different to having a broken down car off the racing line. That would be a safety car. You wouldn't leave it there for other cars to race past and avoid. But if cars are going at a handful of mph, it's fine. There's no consistency.

[Alfisti]

They are HOWLING through Copse and Becketts at god knows what speed whilst cars loiter on the racing line on an off camber crest. 

 

Disaster waiting to happen, it is inevitable. 

[Anderis]

Hamilton hit the tractor at the Nürburgring.

If you refer to 2007, it was Liuzzi. The tractor was there to rescure Hamilton from gravel.

 

Liuzzi almost hit the Safety Car at high speed but the SC driver took evasive action:

(6:25)

 

It all looked very bad if you think about it. I bet the outrage would be much bigger if it happened in 2024.

[PayasYouRace]

Yes I misremembered who hit the tractor. Thanks.

[ANF]

And the stewards never give anything more than slap to the wrist for these offenders. Until big crash happens someday that is

I don't understand why drivers aren't given a reprimand for exceeding the maximum lap time. There are so many transgressions every weekend. In Q1 at Montreal, 16 or 20 drivers were under investigation for not staying below the maximum time!

[AncientLurker]

It will stop when the FIA and stewards toughen up and start issuing grid drops and penalty points for infractions (practice, Q and race). Slap on the wrist and a few quid is not a deterrent.

[ATM]

Maybe they're all trying to save tire life on the inlap/outlap and, after getting them scrubbed,still use them for something.
Someone mentioned a couple of days ago the Indycar idea of GP start line different to clocked/qualy start line. It's such a simple and common sense idea but nooooo, not for F1, let's just fark around the circuit like a Mercedes Citaro bus.

Edited by ATM, 06 July 2024 - 07:34.

[PlatenGlass]

Not an expert in buses - is that what you have in your avatar?

[ATM]

Thank you for asking, no, that's a vintage Romanian bus, a Rocar 109 Montana.

[LittleChris]

The last "big one" of this type was Zolder in 1982, over 40 years ago. I just don't think it's as big a problem as the OP is making out. Sometimes we have some near misses, but generally the drivers seem able to avoid problems. There is a minimum speed laid down too. No matter what you do, you're going to have slower cars being caught by faster ones.

 

Though Mass wasn't actually loitering and moved off the line any driver would've expected Villeneuve to take for Terlamen but didn't....... Still feel sorry for Jochen all these years later as apparently he and Gilles were good friends & had dinner together the night before according to Walter Wolf who was with them  . 

[CPR]

There is a lot of real time data available in F1. Could show distance to nearby cars behind on the steering wheel or similar. Or could have cameras and screens in the cockpit showing the view behind instead of the near useless wing mirrors. Basically, give drivers more info and perhaps automated warnings.

[PayasYouRace]

Though Mass wasn't actually loitering and moved off the line any driver would've expected Villeneuve to take for Terlamen but didn't....... Still feel sorry for Jochen all these years later as apparently he and Gilles were good friends & had dinner together the night before according to Walter Wolf who was with them  . 

Indeed.

[Stoffel]

Instead of coming up with all kind of regulations about how slow is too slow, delta times and rules about where you can or can not park your car in the pitlane they should look at the root of the problem; the tyres.

 

They are so critical on temperatures and pressures that create all these awkward and indeed dangerous situations. Having a competent tyre manufacturer would be the proper fix for this problem, unfortunately this is like talking to a brick wall though as we do not seem to be able to get rid of Pirelli...

[LolaB0860]

Having a competent tyre manufacturer would be the proper fix for this problem, unfortunately this is like talking to a brick wall though as we do not seem to be able to get rid of Pirelli...

F1 wants garbage tires for entertainment, so nothing changes until that is changed as well.

[PayasYouRace]

Instead of coming up with all kind of regulations about how slow is too slow, delta times and rules about where you can or can not park your car in the pitlane they should look at the root of the problem; the tyres.

 

They are so critical on temperatures and pressures that create all these awkward and indeed dangerous situations. Having a competent tyre manufacturer would be the proper fix for this problem, unfortunately this is like talking to a brick wall though as we do not seem to be able to get rid of Pirelli...

This has been happening since long before Pirelli.

[Stoffel]

This has been happening since long before Pirelli.

 

Nowhere near to the comical way in which they collectively do it nowadays.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Putting the safety aspect to one side for a second, FP sessions are painful to watch with so many cars crawling around. There was a point yesterday when there was one car on a hot lap and six cars down the hanger straight and around club just crawling around. Must be crap to watch at the circuit.

Edited by IrvTheSwerve, 06 July 2024 - 07:54.

[Ruusperi]

I've waited that plane crash to happen for years. Hasn't happened. So it's like Bianchi situation. We think it's one-of-the-million chance. But once it happens, FIA will be like "we couldn't anticipate it as it was a freak accident", except everyone watching F1 has anticipated it always.

Let's just hope it doesn't happen on a street circuit.

[Disgrace]

Hartley's appalling driving in Baku when Gasly came up behind him on a hot lap was probably the closest we've been to something very bad.

[NickeyF1]

Hartley's appalling driving in Baku when Gasly came up behind him on a hot lap was probably the closest we've been to something very bad.

 

I was about to mention that one. This one still freaks me out a lil bit.

 

 

The F2 incident from Monaco this year was a really close call too.

 

Edited by NickeyF1, 06 July 2024 - 09:01.

[ANF]

It should be pointed out that Miyata had a problem (engine?) at Monaco.

[Beri]

Slightly OT: The safety car at Suzuka was deployed 58 seconds after Bianchi had hit the crane. Bianchi aquaplaned off the track on the rivers at Dunlop Corner under double yellow flags.

Double-waved yellows indicate a significant hazard, and drivers must be ready to stop if necessary.

We can safely say that Bianchi never followed up on that rule. Else he would still be amongst us. As harsh as this sounds.

And I think there lies the inherent issue; drivers are humans and want to bend the rules to their advantage. And as long as there is no autonomous system in place, these things will always be a risk. The answer is not stricter rules or delta timings and such. But a fully automated system.

[BRG]

Don't slow moving vehicles on the track mean that the white flag is displayed?  

[LolaB0860]

And when the crash does happen someday, it'll be like this

Edited by LolaB0860, 06 July 2024 - 10:04.

[Sterzo]

It would be interesting to hear from drivers why they do this. It's possible - I put it no stronger - that it's easier to avoid impeding by going slowly, so you can stay off line and exercise greater control over where you're caught by cars on fast laps.

 

Having said that, it does look ridiculous, and when multiple cars clutter up a race track something is amiss.

[Ruusperi]

And when the crash does happen someday, it'll be like this
 

By "plane crash", I think we mean something like this:

Edited by Ruusperi, 06 July 2024 - 10:24.