41 replies to this topic

[aray]

While there is salary cap barring top 3 highest paid employees, Aston Martin seems have made most gain of luring away big talents. Now they are at forefront to hire Newey according to most of the 'insiders'. What's the allure ? Getting good checks are also possible in other teams. There is Alonso , who is definitely going rusty bit by bit( coming from a diehard Alonso fan) and a father's son who has already hit his plateau and who would stay as long as he wants. What's the hope for having your inventions awarded on the circuit? How does Stroll senior do it?

Edited by aray, 08 July 2024 - 16:25.

[Sterzo]

There's been plenty of information published on how Stroll has invested, reorganised, put in place sound structures, and recruited many talented people. How is that not alluring if you are looking to advance?

[DW46]

$

[F1matt]

What better options are there for Adrian Newey? He is never going to join Ferrari, or any Italian team after the way he was treat after Imola in 1994, he has worked for Williams and McLaren, is currently at Red Bull, Mercedes are doing OK so why upset the apple cart by bringing in Adrian Newey, there are to many uncertainties around Alpine so that leaves an ambitious well-funded team like Aston Martin where there is an opportunity to deliver success and possibly become a shareholder or director for a long term role away from F1. The added bonus is he doesn’t have to move home.

[Mat13]

Can only be money- all the time his son is racing for the team, Lawrence Stroll looks like a rich man with a plaything, rather than a serious team with a proper plan for the future.

[ATM]

We need to be fair, he does seem much more implicated than say Marussia or even Haas. Money is there, team facilities are upgraded and names are being drawn în. He does have a weakness with his son (who wouldn't?) but to me it looks like it's more than a toy -until he wins, that is. What happens after he proves he's beaten everybody else at their game (Wdc/wcc or even a race win) I don't know.

[Nathan]

Equity in the team.  A no bullshit, quasi 'all in' team owner that has been known in the paddock for near 3 decades.  He's as much a determined, diabolical asshole as Dennis or Williams or Tyrrell were, but he got rich first so people don't like him.  High performers don't see the world that way.

Edited by Nathan, 08 July 2024 - 19:45.

[flyboym3]

I don't see the attraction tbh, Stroll will be here today and gone tomorrow once he realises he's sank so much money he'll never get a return, not just the F1 team I mean by that, the whole brand. His business brain will eventually kick in and he'll cut his losses.

[onewingedangel]

As the forthcoming Honda works team and with a title sponsor (and potentially part owner) with more money than God, You'd imagine Stroll is no longer spending his own money at this point.

[PayasYouRace]

I don't see the attraction tbh, Stroll will be here today and gone tomorrow once he realises he's sank so much money he'll never get a return, not just the F1 team I mean by that, the whole brand. His business brain will eventually kick in and he'll cut his losses.

Why is unique to Stroll? Surely that’s the case for every F1 team owner, ever?

[Joseki]

How is it hard to get? Let me break it down for you:
 
 
 
1- State of art, most advanced F1 factory building finishing costruction in a couple of months.
 
Top of the line production machinery, brand new simulator, brand new wind tunnel all under the same roof
 

 
 
 
2- Honda (current best F1 PU manufacturer) exclusive factory team from 2026
 
The may not come in 2026 with the best PU out of the box, but their history speak for itself. They will deliver sooner or later and will spend as much as it is needed to be sure they can do so.
 

 
 
3- Financial and exclusive technical parternership with the second richest company in the world
 
Quoting Wikipedia:
 

Saudi Aramco (Arabic: أرامكو السعودية ʾArāmkū as-Suʿūdiyyah), officially the Saudi Arabian Oil Group or simply Aramco (formerly Arabian-American Oil Company), is a state-owned petroleum and natural gas company that is the national oil company of Saudi Arabia.[6][7] As of 2022, it is the second-largest company in the world by revenue[8] and is headquartered in Dhahran. It has repeatedly achieved the largest annual profits in global corporate history. Saudi Aramco has both the world's second-largest proven crude oil reserves, at more than 270 billion barrels (43 billion cubic metres),[9] and largest daily oil production of all oil-producing companies.[10][11][12]

 

 
4- Lots of open positions and high salaries
 
I'm putting this last because it's the result of the previous 3 points, but this is actually probably the biggest motivator.
You can advance your career in a "brand new" team with extremely high target and with a lot of currently vacant positions to apply for.

 

Simply speaking, if all positions were filled and/or salaries were low, there wouldn't be this "mass hiring".
 

Edited by Joseki, 09 July 2024 - 09:57.

[messy]

Great brand identity, works engine deal incoming, new facilities, an owner who seems committed and motivated to grow the team, what’s not to like? Their regression on the track this season is the only black mark against them that I can see - and I can think of someone who might help with that….

Lance Stroll is often given as a negative too, but the fact he’s started beating Alonso - whether that’s down to him improving or Fernando dropping off - shows that he’s not far off where he needs to be.

[PayasYouRace]

Well that turned into a recruitment ad at the end, but point well made nonetheless.

There’s plenty of reason to want to work at Aston Martin, wether you’re Adrian Newey or a young grad.

[jonklug]

$

 

Indeed. A whole thread can be just summed up with one symbol. That's it really! 

[AlexPrime]

Not a done deal IMO, not yet, I still expect retirement of Ferrari. But the allure is the option to make Fernando a world champion. It would be truly unprecedented. 

[IrvTheSwerve]

Aston Martin as an automotive brand does have allure in itself. Sure, it's not Ferrari but it's in that zone.

[Collombin]

Jim Clark's first F1 team! He could have got his hands on a genuine state of the art 1957 Grand Prix car.

In 1960.

[New Britain]

How is it hard to get? Let me break it down for you:
 
 
 
1- State of art, most advanced F1 factory building finishing costruction in a couple of months.
 
Top of the line production machinery, brand new simulator, brand new wind tunnel all under the same roof
 

 
 
 
2- Honda (current best F1 PU manufacturer) exclusive factory team from 2026
 
The may not come in 2026 with the best PU out of the box, but their history speak for itself. They will deliver sooner or later and will spend as much as it is needed to be sure they can do so.
 

 
 
3- Financial and exclusive technical parternership with the second richest company in the world
 
Quoting Wikipedia:
 

 

 
4- Lots of open positions and high salaries
 
I'm putting this last because it's the result of the previous 3 points, but this is actually probably the biggest motivator.
You can advance your career in a "brand new" team with extremely high target and with a lot of currently vacant positions to apply for.

 

Simply speaking, if all positions were filled and/or salaries were low, there wouldn't be this "mass hiring".
 

I think some of the factors you cite are not as attractive as you suggest.

 

- Yes, all operations under one roof with new tools and facilities, but the same can be said for some other teams.

- Honda PUs may or may not be the best today, but in recent memory Mercedes built by far the best PUs and often Ferrari's have been strong as well. In light of the FIA's aim to equalise PU performance, this is much less important than it once was.

- Re Aramco, having more funding is always better than having less, but (for most teams) under the cost cap it cannot be exploited beyond the top three highest-paid, so it is at most a marginal advantage. Merc supposedly offered Verstappen $150m/yr to drive for them; if they can afford that, they can afford to pay an Adrian Newey whatever it would take. As for an 'exclusive technical partnership' with Aramco, I'm really unsure why that would be more valuable than Shell's partnership with Ferrari or Mobil's with Red Bull.

- 'Lots of open positions and high salaries' -  again, what about the cost cap? Last season AMR reportedly had revenue of $290m. How likely is it that, with that level of revenue, they were not already constrained by the cost cap of $142m? Where is the capacity for lots of new positions and high salaries?

 

A major factor that you do not mention is what it would be like to work for Lawrence Stroll. Some people might love to have the guy as their boss, but Szafnauer said that Stroll (whose technical expertise is in fashion marketing) likes to 'micromanage' the racing team: such interference is unlikely to be helpful. Stroll's behaviour in dealing with his racing driver son has been dubious. If one is to go by his repeated public representations about what was happening at AML (the road car company), I shall not call Stroll a liar, but let's just say that he was 'wrong' a lot.

And then there is the man's arrogance: 'I should be knighted for what I have done.' FFS!

[Joseki]

I think some of the factors you cite are not as attractive as you suggest.

- 'Lots of open positions and high salaries' -  again, what about the cost cap? Last season AMR reportedly had revenue of $290m. How likely is it that, with that level of revenue, they were not already constrained by the cost cap of $142m? Where is the capacity for lots of new positions and high salaries?

This is the only factual statement in my post that is not opinable.

 

Fallows, Blandin, Cowell, Cardile are getting more money at AMR then their previous positions at Red Bull/Mercedes/Ferrari. The offer to Newey too is reportedly far higher than what Ferrari is offering him.

How they manage to pay this high salaries under the cost cap I'm not sure, but they are doing so.

[New Britain]

This is the only factual statement in my post that is not opinable.

 

Fallows, Blandin, Cowell, Cardile are getting more money at AMR then their previous positions at Red Bull/Mercedes/Ferrari. The offer to Newey too is reportedly far higher than what Ferrari is offering him.

How they manage to pay this high salaries under the cost cap I'm not sure, but they are doing so.

Fallows and Blandin joined Aston Martin 2 years ago! Their historical hirings are no indicator of how actively or expensively Aston will be hiring going forward.

Cowell will be replacing Whitmarsh like-for-like, so again not an indicator of Aston's potentiality for future staff expansion.

Cardile - I'm impressed that you know what his Ferrari salary was and what his Aston salary will be.

Newey's salary would be outside the cap, although his joining any team would push that team's currently third-highest paid inside the cap. In the case of Newey, I would agree that Aramco's (and Cognizant's) funding would help, but similar would apply to other teams. Now that we have a cap, several teams could afford Newey, so Aramco money would not be a differentiator.

[Joseki]

Fallows and Blandin joined Aston Martin 2 years ago! Their historical hirings are no indicator of how actively or expensively Aston will be hiring going forward.

Cowell will be replacing Whitmarsh like-for-like, so again not an indicator of Aston's potentiality for future staff expansion.

Cardile - I'm impressed that you know what his Ferrari salary was and what his Aston salary will be.

Newey's salary would be outside the cap, although his joining any team would push that team's currently third-highest paid inside the cap. In the case of Newey, I would agree that Aramco's (and Cognizant's) funding would help, but similar would apply to other teams. Now that we have a cap, several teams could afford Newey, so Aramco money would not be a differentiator.

Cardile is going to Aston for the money. It has been widely reported for months by the italian press.

 

For the rest, basically you are saying that "if you exclude all the people that are getting paid more, then there is no certainty that other future staff will be paid more"... but at this point they basically filled all the senior positions already. The only slot left really is Newey's.

 

 

 

 

I mean it's clear they are doing something attractive for a lot of senior people. They recruited talented people from all the other top teams.

Edited by Joseki, 09 July 2024 - 12:11.

[New Britain]

Cardile is going to Aston for the money. It has been widely reported for months by the italian press.

 

For the rest, basically you are saying that "if you exclude all the people that are getting paid more, then there is no certainty that other future staff will be paid more"... but at this point they basically filled all the senior positions already. The only slot left really is Newey's.

 

 

 

 

I mean it's clear they are doing something attractive for a lot of senior people. They recruited talented people from all the other top teams.

Okay. I think we may be talking in different tenses. You (I think) are focusing on why people have come there, whereas I was focusing on why, going forward, new people would go there.

I agree that, in the past, people went there at least in part because Aston had many more openings than the bigger teams had and had the spare budget to pay them. At the same time, I would say that Aston now has no more scope than any other of the bigger teams for expanding their workforce and payroll.

[Sterzo]

Okay. I think we may be talking in different tenses. You (I think) are focusing on why people have come there, whereas I was focusing on why, going forward, new people would go there.

I agree that, in the past, people went there at least in part because Aston had many more openings than the bigger teams had and had the spare budget to pay them. At the same time, I would say that Aston now has no more scope than any other of the bigger teams for expanding their workforce and payroll.

But the "allure" to an Adrian Newey could be that they already have put in place the infrastructure and people, and just need his input to transform the whole operation into a winning outfit.

[Pingu Pi]

Simple highest element of the decision - Impact. They'll all be known for making a team that's mid-grid into champs and when you're that high up in sport you're looking to make a legacy for yourself. 

 

The investment and potential makes it the ideal opportunity for these folk to jump on board.

 

And of course nice financial packages are a factor, nobody does it for free and they're all getting paid well as it is and likely would do at their respective current employers. 

Edited by Pingu Pi, 09 July 2024 - 13:02.

[Beri]

What's the allure? To Newey?

Building up a team to a top team and in the meanwhile getting your free hand at the automotive department to come up with hypercar designs.

Just a hunch.

[maximilian]

The opportunity to work with a generational talent and future WDC, Lance Stroll.

[Baddoer]

Short trip time to his house, I guess.

[engineblock1]

What better options are there for Adrian Newey? He is never going to join Ferrari, or any Italian team after the way he was treat after Imola in 1994, he has worked for Williams and McLaren, is currently at Red Bull, Mercedes are doing OK so why upset the apple cart by bringing in Adrian Newey, there are to many uncertainties around Alpine so that leaves an ambitious well-funded team like Aston Martin where there is an opportunity to deliver success and possibly become a shareholder or director for a long term role away from F1. The added bonus is he doesn’t have to move home.

 

Can you elaborate that more? I am curious what happened there. I didnt watch F1 back then but my understanding was Newey was working with Williams at that time?

[IrvTheSwerve]

Can you elaborate that more? I am curious what happened there. I didnt watch F1 back then but my understanding was Newey was working with Williams at that time?

 

I haven't got the details to hand but I think it's something to do with Italian law and needing someone to be culpable, i.e. Newey being designer could be charged with manslaughter. 

[PayasYouRace]

Can you elaborate that more? I am curious what happened there. I didnt watch F1 back then but my understanding was Newey was working with Williams at that time?

It has to do with how Italian law treats the designers of any vehicle in which a fatality occurs. Newey was charged with manslaughter and it dragged on for years, acquitted in late 1997 and again on appeal in 1999 and wasn’t finally fully acquitted until 2005. Frank Williams and four others were also charged.

I’d imagine being out through a decade of prosecution would put anyone off living in a country.

[krapmeister]

I don't see the attraction tbh, Stroll will be here today and gone tomorrow once he realises he's sank so much money he'll never get a return, not just the F1 team I mean by that, the whole brand. His business brain will eventually kick in and he'll cut his losses.

The guy is likely going to make a fortune by eventually selling the team to the Saudi PIF. He isn't a billionaire for nothing...

[F1matt]

Can you elaborate that more? I am curious what happened there. I didnt watch F1 back then but my understanding was Newey was working with Williams at that time?

 

 

I haven't got the details to hand but I think it's something to do with Italian law and needing someone to be culpable, i.e. Newey being designer could be charged with manslaughter. 

 

 

It has to do with how Italian law treats the designers of any vehicle in which a fatality occurs. Newey was charged with manslaughter and it dragged on for years, acquitted in late 1997 and again on appeal in 1999 and wasn’t finally fully acquitted until 2005. Frank Williams and four others were also charged.

I’d imagine being out through a decade of prosecution would put anyone off living in a country.

 

 

 

IIRC 6 people were charged with manslaughter by the Italian prosecutors, Frank Williams, Patrick Head, Adrian Newey from Williams F1 and the race director who was Roland Bruyserade at the time, along with the director of the Imola track and the chief marshal at the track. They were charged around 18 months after the accident and according to the Italian media were expected to be given 2 year suspended sentences if found guilty. There was some pressure from the paddock to boycott the Italian races, Flavio Briatore was very vocal saying Benetton and Renault would not race in Italy if they were found guilty. One of the major problems of the prosecution was the press seemed to kept informed before the accused so it descended into a circus and Adrian Newey has said on multiple occasions that the episode changed him and questioned his desire to stay in F1. 

 

 

For me the fact that people from Williams, the race director, and people from the Imola circuit were all charged shows how the prosecution took a machine gun approach to the case, unless they thought the car, the track, and the race director all played a part in the accident, and the time taken to bring the charges, and how long the individuals had to put up with this shows how badly it was handled in Italy. 

[New Britain]

But the "allure" to an Adrian Newey could be that they already have put in place the infrastructure and people, and just need his input to transform the whole operation into a winning outfit.

I wouldn't disagree, but would (obvs speculating here) put it another way. I think for Newey what matters most these days are the (his) creative process and intellectual challenge. If he is motivated to design another F1 car, he would seek a place where he would have the most personal freedom and control over both what he does and what ultimately happens. Working with people with whom he gels would be another high priority.

So long as the infrastructure is good enough, I doubt that it would matter whether he had the newest wind tunnel or an office in the fanciest industrial campus. Having to work under Stroll might not be a deal-breaker for him, but I suspect it would be a bigger issue than working under some other team bosses would be.

[AlexPrime]

I wouldn't disagree, but would (obvs speculating here) put it another way. I think for Newey what matters most these days are the (his) creative process and intellectual challenge. If he is motivated to design another F1 car, he would seek a place where he would have the most personal freedom and control over both what he does and what ultimately happens. Working with people with whom he gels would be another high priority.

So long as the infrastructure is good enough, I doubt that it would matter whether he had the newest wind tunnel or an office in the fanciest industrial campus. Having to work under Stroll might not be a deal-breaker for him, but I suspect it would be a bigger issue than working under some other team bosses would be.

It's strange, because neither Aston, nor Ferrari seem the best place for Adrian, one because of Stroll Snr, the other because of the Italian pressure. The most shocking development would be if Flavio snatched him for Alpine, it would be a masterstroke.

[New Britain]

It's strange, because neither Aston, nor Ferrari seem the best place for Adrian, one because of Stroll Snr, the other because of the Italian pressure. The most shocking development would be if Flavio snatched him for Alpine, it would be a masterstroke.

That would be a shocker. I somehow doubt that he would choose to work for a team whose commitment to Formula One is about as solid as Donald Trump's commitment to his wife Melania.

[Nathan]

I think some of the factors you cite are not as attractive as you suggest.

 

 

- Re Aramco, having more funding is always better than having less, but (for most teams) under the cost cap it cannot be exploited beyond the top three highest-paid, so it is at most a marginal advantage. Merc supposedly offered Verstappen $150m/yr to drive for them; if they can afford that, they can afford to pay an Adrian Newey whatever it would take. As for an 'exclusive technical partnership' with Aramco, I'm really unsure why that would be more valuable than Shell's partnership with Ferrari or Mobil's with Red Bull.

- 'Lots of open positions and high salaries' -  again, what about the cost cap? Last season AMR reportedly had revenue of $290m. How likely is it that, with that level of revenue, they were not already constrained by the cost cap of $142m? Where is the capacity for lots of new positions and high salaries?

 

AM have a smaller head count than most other teams, so the average per employee can be higher.  The cost cap hurt the middle career folks in big teams with leadership aspirations, so for many being hired they get a monetary and title upgrade.  One glaring omission from the cost cap is bonus pay to workers.  That is unrestricted.  Not included are costs towards employee benefits and pension plans.  You can imagine how some can splurge there.  Other areas are travel expenses, so for example offering business class flights and your own hotel room for all trans-continental races with top notch dining per diems are areas team can separate themselves.  Recently FIA has excluded employee activities away from the factory, so theoretically I suppose you can team build whole families to destinations all over the world.

Edited by Nathan, 09 July 2024 - 17:36.

[taffer]

The allure ? They have the most beautiful car on the grid by far. Who needs more ?

[New Britain]

AM have a smaller head count than most other teams, so the average per employee can be higher.  The cost cap hurt the middle career folks in big teams with leadership aspirations, so for many being hired they get a monetary and title upgrade.  One glaring omission from the cost cap is bonus pay to workers.  That is unrestricted.  Not included are costs towards employee benefits and pension plans.  You can imagine how some can splurge there.  Other areas are travel expenses, so for example offering business class flights and your own hotel room for all trans-continental races with top notch dining per diems are areas team can separate themselves.  Recently FIA has excluded employee activities away from the factory, so theoretically I suppose you can team build whole families to destinations all over the world.

 

Unless the regs have been changed in the last two months, bonus payments are not unrestricted. A team is allowed to exclude bonuses of the lower of:

- 20% of its Total Fixed Employee Remuneration or

- the Excluded Bonus Maximum Amount, which for the WCC champion and any other team that finishes higher than it did in any of the previous three seasons is $12m, and for the rest is $10m.

Anything above those levels must be included under the cap.
 

[Sterzo]

And another (possible) factor in the "allure" of Aston Martin specifically. Newey was brought up as a car enthusiast by his car enthusiast father, at a time when Aston Martin had an exotic image and a still-recent racing history. A name with more of an aura than VCARB or Red Bull.

[Frankbullitt]

 

The allure...

[Nathan]

Unless the regs have been changed in the last two months, bonus payments are not unrestricted. A team is allowed to exclude bonuses of the lower of:

- 20% of its Total Fixed Employee Remuneration or

- the Excluded Bonus Maximum Amount, which for the WCC champion and any other team that finishes higher than it did in any of the previous three seasons is $12m, and for the rest is $10m.

Anything above those levels must be included under the cap.
 

 

Perfect, there we, go, thanks!  

[Secretariat]

I think on a simplistic level the allure is potential. There is potential to be great. It the same kind of conversation when it comes to drivers, just we are discussing a team here. Since money is the theme regularly associated with the team, I suppose the allure is akin to investing early in a promising enterprise with hopes of seeing a big return in the future. It's not a sure thing, so there is risk. Some people like risk. Pingu Pi mentioned legacy. I think there is certainly a bit of that in play.