108 replies to this topic

[Schumisenna23]

https://www.motorspo...racing-drivers/

 

The full list: 1. Jim Clark

2. Lewis Hamilton

3.Ayrton Senna

4.Juan Manuel Fangio

5.Tazio Nuvolari

6.Stirling Moss

7.Michael Schuamcher

8.Alain prost

9.Jackie Stewart

10. AJ Foyt

11.Niki Lauda

12.Sebastien Loeb

13.Mario Andretti

14.Alberto Ascari

15. Rudolf Caracciola

16.Max Verstappen

17. Fernando Alonso

18.Graham Hill

19.John Surtees

20.Giles Villeneuve

21.Richard Petty

22.Colin McRae

23.Emerson Fittipaldi

24.Jack Brabham

25.Jacky Ickx

26.Nelson Piquet

27.Dan Gurney

28.Walter Rohrl

29.Dale Earnhardt

30.Achille Varzi

31.Nigel Mansell

32. Tony Brooks

33. Bernd Rosemeyer

34. Juha Kankkunen

35.  Georges Boillot

36.Sebastien Ogier

37. Tommi Makinen

38.Sebastian Vettel

39. Jochen Rindt

40. Jeff Gordon

41. James Hunt

42. Ronnie Peterson

43. Mike Hawthorn

44. Mika Hakkinen

45. Carlos Sainz Sr

46. Al Unser Sr

47. Jenson Button

48. Chris Amon

49. Vic Elford

50. Ari Vatanen

51.Jody Scheckter

52. Alan Jones

53. Bobby Unser

54. Kimi Raikkonen

55. Tom Kristensen

56.Jacques Villeneuve

57. Alex Zanardi

58.Derek Bell

59. Damon Hill

60. Bruce Mclaren

61. Juan Pablo Montoya

62. Scott Dixon

63.Jimmie Johnson

64. Phil Hill

65. Rick Mears

66. Hermann Lang

67. Felice Nazzaro

68. Louis Chiron

69.Malcolm Campbell

70.Jo Siffert

71.Bill Vukovich

72.Denny Hulme

73. Luigi Fangioli

74. Nico Rosberg

75. Olivier Gendebien

76. Michele Mouton

77. Pedro Rodriguez

78.Keke Rosberg

79.Stefan Bellof

80.Parnelli Jones

81.Robert Benoist

82.Didier Pironi

83.Carlos Reutemann

84.David Coulthard

85. Gerhard Berger

86.Henry Segrave

87.Francois Cevert

88.Wolfgang Von Trips

89.Jean Behra

90. Timo Makinen

91.David Pearson

92.Richard Burns

93.Giuseppe Farina

94.Rauno Aaltonen

95.Louis Meyer

96. Craig Breedlove

97.Erik Carlsson

98.Riccardo Patrese

99.Al Unser Jr

100.Kalle Rovanpera

 

I don’t have much time to focus on past events right now, as I’m enjoying the current F1 season and the new drivers. However, seeing the Motor Sport Magazine list made me think that it is very British-biased. Ranking drivers from all different disciplines such as F1, Indy, Le Mans, and Daytona together is extremely challenging and sparks considerable debate. I decided to share this list with everyone to encourage discussion and exchange of opinions. It’s a sensitive topic to combine all racing disciplines and rank them.

 

If I were to create my own list for overall racing(for f1 only), it would look like this. I chose not to include Max Verstappen as he has the potential to become the number one driver in the future. I'm not expert in other masters like rally, Daytona, Indy or anything else. So, I must create list for myself only F1.

 

1.Jim Clark

2.Michael Schumacher

3.Stirling Moss

4.Aryton Senna

5.Lewis Hamilton

6. Jackie Stewart

7.Juan Manuel Fangio

8.Alain Prost

9.Fernando Alonso

10.Niki Lauda

 

 

Edited by Schumisenna23, 09 July 2024 - 07:15.

[Schumisenna23]

Anyway it's a bit crazy that you can combine every arts and rank them.

[RekF1]

Yeah, that's all over the place. I agree that Vettel and Rindt are comparable, but not all the way down there.

[Anderis]

There's no way I agree with any list that has Schumacher outside top6.

[F1Frog]

Generally I agree with that list more than I expected to, although the glaring absentee is Jean-Pierre Wimille. And I would have both Rosbergs much higher.

My personal top ten would be very similar to yours, SchumiSenna

Edited by F1Frog, 08 July 2024 - 23:10.

[Schumisenna23]

Generally I agree with that list more than I expected to, although the glaring absentee is Jean-Pierre Wimille. And I would have both Rosbergs much higher.

For me, I find it’s a bit difficult to judge some Indy drivers or rally drivers. As I’m not that much of knowledgeable in both disciplines. I must listen to some masters in this forum including you ahaha.

Edited by Schumisenna23, 08 July 2024 - 23:13.

[Gravelngrass]

1. Jim Clark

2. Lewis Hamilton

3.Ayrton Senna

4.Juan Manuel Fangio

5.Tazio Nuvolari

6.Stirling Moss

7.Michael Schuamcher

8.Alain prost

9.Jackie Stewart

10. AJ Foyt

 

18-20 Rosemont Road,

London NW3 6NE

 

Surprise, surprise...

Edited by Gravelngrass, 08 July 2024 - 23:32.

[George Costanza]

This list is certainly biased. Damon Hill is ranked way too low. Michael too but that's obvious. Damon was certainly better than Jacques.

Edited by George Costanza, 08 July 2024 - 23:51.

[markpenske]

I was always a big Prost fan. And as any Prost fan will tell you Senna was not our cup of tea. When you look back at Senna's and Prost's careers - the stats are almost identical. My opinion: They should be ranked evenly.

 

Also, Mansell should be higher than 31st.

[teejay]

A good clickbait driver for them. 

 

Simply impossible to get this right across all the formulas and eras. 

 

Al Unser Jr at 99, but no Michael Andretti on the list? Fail - he was way better than Al was. 

[red stick]

A good clickbait driver for them. 

 

Simply impossible to get this right across all the formulas and eras. 

 

Al Unser Jr at 99, but no Michael Andretti on the list? Fail - he was way better than Al was. 

Was he?  Andretti won more top level IndyCar races, 42-34, but Unser, Jr. had two championships to Andretti's one, two Indy 500 wins to Andretti's none, and won Pikes Peak outright, as Unsers do, at a place Mario Andretti also won but where Michael never competed.  Who was the more complete driver?

Edited by red stick, 09 July 2024 - 04:18.

[red stick]

Apart from that, yes, this is meaningless clickbait designed to further endless, futile arguments.  Like this one.     

[blackmme]

Jean Behra so good he’s on the list twice! 

It’s not a bad list TBH although personally I’d definitely swap Tommi Makkinen and Colin McRae around.

 

Regards Mike
 

[Schumisenna23]

Jean Behra so good he’s on the list twice! 

It’s not a bad list TBH although personally I’d definitely swap Tommi Makkinen and Colin McRae around.

 

Regards Mike
 

Will edit, man

Edited by Schumisenna23, 09 July 2024 - 07:16.

[Taxi]

Loeb sould be top 5. He's probably the most talented all around driver of all times. With the right training he would excell in any discipline. 

[Schumisenna23]

Loeb sould be top 5. He's probably the most talented all around driver of all times. With the right training he would excell in any discipline. 

Loeb is so talented. He could be the master in any discipline.

[Schumisenna23]

 

1. Jim Clark

2. Lewis Hamilton

3.Ayrton Senna

4.Juan Manuel Fangio

5.Tazio Nuvolari

6.Stirling Moss

7.Michael Schuamcher

8.Alain prost

9.Jackie Stewart

10. AJ Foyt

 

18-20 Rosemont Road,

London NW3 6NE

 

Surprise, surprise...

 

Ahaha, Michael at7, I know where it’s from.

[CoolBreeze]

Just who in the blue hell is Michael Schuamcher?

 

And Lewis Hamilton in number 2? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[BRG]

the Motor Sport Magazine list made me think that it is very British-biased. 

UK 146 F1 drivers  (Italy second with just 83)

UK 311 F1 wins (Germany second with only 179)

UK 20 F1 WD Championships (Germany second with 12)

UK 10 F1 WD Champions (Brazil second with just 3)

 

So it is obviously going to be heavily weighted towards the UK, isn't it?

 

Not that I agree with the listing, mind you....

[Sterzo]

Here is a direct quote from the article:

 

"It’s also just a bit of fun. So in a spirit of good-natured debate among likeminded enthusiasts in love with the greatest sport in the world, let’s not make the mistake of taking it too seriously."

[AlexPrime]

Thanks for the laugh   

[DW46]

UK 146 F1 drivers (Italy second with just 83)
UK 311 F1 wins (Germany second with only 179)
UK 20 F1 WD Championships (Germany second with 12)
UK 10 F1 WD Champions (Brazil second with just 3)

So it is obviously going to be heavily weighted towards the UK, isn't it?

Not that I agree with the listing, mind you....

Finland has 3 as well, punching above their weight 😅

[AlexPrime]

Finland has 3 as well, punching above their weight

and that's just F1, add WRC and Finland becomes a powerhouse. 

[Sterzo]

Here are my own top ten Grand Prix drivers, in chronological order:

 

Felice Nazzaro, Rudolf Caracciola, Juan Manuel Fangio, Jim Clark, Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher, Lewis Hamilton, Max Verstappen.

Edited by Sterzo, 09 July 2024 - 10:20.

[AlexPrime]

Here are my own top ten Grand Prix drivers, in chronological order:

 

Felice Nazzaro, Rudolf Caracciola, Juan Manuel Fangio, Jim Clark, Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, Michael Scumacher, Lewis Hamilton, Max Verstappen.

great list... 

[PlatenGlass]

Loeb sould be top 5. He's probably the most talented all around driver of all times. With the right training he would excell in any discipline.

I was never convinced he was significantly better than the WRC drivers around when he started his career. He just happened to be the driver at the top when the WRC went from being a thing to not a thing, so he just became ingrained at the top.

[Schumisenna23]

Here are my own top ten Grand Prix drivers, in chronological order:

 

Felice Nazzaro, Rudolf Caracciola, Juan Manuel Fangio, Jim Clark, Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher, Lewis Hamilton, Max Verstappen.

Great list,man

[messy]

I rolled my eyes at this list no more and no less than any other list of this nature I’ve seen. I like that publications still try this kind of thing, but surely life’s too short to debate whether David Coulthard was greater than Al Unser Jr.

[Collombin]

surely life’s too short to debate whether David Coulthard was greater than Al Unser Jr.

At least the age old Craig Breedlove v Riccardo Patrese debate is now settled.

I can understand including land speed record holders like Stirling Moss and Rudolf Caracciola who apparently had a bit of success in other motorsport fields too, but it gets to a point where we're comparing yoghurt to garage doors to lump every branch into the same pot. Too many metaphors there perhaps.

[Henri Greuter]

Here are my own top ten Grand Prix drivers, in chronological order:

 

Felice Nazzaro, Rudolf Caracciola, Juan Manuel Fangio, Jim Clark, Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher, Lewis Hamilton, Max Verstappen.

 

 

No way Senna and Schumacher would make it into my list, not a single spit second worth to be considered. (The crimes outdo the achievements for me)

Lewis & Max also not.

Bernd Rosemeyer and Tazio Nuvolari woud take two of the vacancies but the two remaining vacancies, no names handy for right now.

[Schumisenna23]

No way Senna and Schumacher would make it into my list, not a single spit second worth to be considered. (The crimes outdo the achievements for me)

Lewis & Max also not.

Bernd Rosemeyer and Tazio Nuvolari woud take two of the vacancies but the two remaining vacancies, no names handy for right now.

I still think F1 is the hardest and the most famous of the motor sport.

[7MGTEsup]

Comparing drivers across time is hard enough but comparing them across series and time is near impossible. There are definitely some names that seem to be in the wrong places on that list.

Edited by 7MGTEsup, 09 July 2024 - 11:36.

[Henri Greuter]

I still think F1 is the hardest and the most famous of the motor sport.

 

 

Times have changed but there is a period of time within history that I rate both an/or either  Le Mans and/or Indy higher than F1 at that time.

[F1Frog]

Times have changed but there is a period of time within history that I rate both an/or either Le Mans and/or Indy higher than F1 at that time.

When?

[Henri Greuter]

When?

 

for Indy  '46 to app '75, Le Mans  49 to 71, both outdoing F1 for me.     CART 88 to 95 outdoing F1 for me as well. 

[Collombin]

Comparing drivers across time is hard enough but comparing them across series and time is near impossible. There are definitely some names that seem to be in the wrong places on that list.

Nobody who contributed will be happy with the list either. What I think they normally do is get about 20 or so writers to cast votes for maybe their personal top 20s and then add everything up. There will probably be some non-British contributors but I'm not a subscriber so can't see the list of who participated, if indeed they reveal it.

[InSearchOfThe]

Richard Burns, but no Marcus Gronholm?
A British sympathy vote I suspect...

[Spillage]

I feel the list gives a romatnic boost towards past drivers because of their exciting styles and charismatic personalities. I mean, was Ronnie Peterson really better than Mika Hakkinen? Does Gilles Villeneuve really deserve to be ranked above Brabham and Fittipaldi (not least 31 places ahead of the driver who beat him to the world title in 1979...)?

Edited by Spillage, 09 July 2024 - 12:20.

[Sterzo]

Times have changed but there is a period of time within history that I rate both an/or either  Le Mans and/or Indy higher than F1 at that time.

 

 

for Indy  '46 to app '75, Le Mans  49 to 71, both outdoing F1 for me.  

I would not venture to disagree with you, Henri, but Le Mans winner Roy Salvadori most certainly did. When he was asked why he did better in sports cars than in Grand Prix racing, he said it was because the standard of competition wasn't as high in sports cars. While Stirling Moss said he could beat Fangio in sports cars but acknowledged Fangio as his superior because he was better in single seaters,

[Ruusperi]

These kind of lists are always biased, because they equal success to "greatness". But there must be many drivers who never got a chance to show their greatness, perhaps due to spending their years in mediocre teams, or never even reaching the top category because of lack of funding or just bad luck in feeder series.

How can we be sure that any random driver in F3, if given chance to drive Ferrari F2004, Mercedes W05 or Red Bull RB19, wouldn't be equally as successful as The Michael, Sir Lewis and Max respectively. Then they would be on this list.

[noikeee]

Richard Burns, but no Marcus Gronholm?
A British sympathy vote I suspect...

 

Markku Alen is a big omission as well

[7MGTEsup]

These kind of lists are always biased, because they equal success to "greatness". But there must be many drivers who never got a chance to show their greatness, perhaps due to spending their years in mediocre teams, or never even reaching the top category because of lack of funding or just bad luck in feeder series.

How can we be sure that any random driver in F3, if given chance to drive Ferrari F2004, Mercedes W05 or Red Bull RB19, wouldn't be equally as successful as The Michael, Sir Lewis and Max respectively. Then they would be on this list.

 

You can only use the data points that are available and not ones that you think may exist but have no evidence of.

[George Costanza]

Here are my own top ten Grand Prix drivers, in chronological order:

Felice Nazzaro, Rudolf Caracciola, Juan Manuel Fangio, Jim Clark, Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher, Lewis Hamilton, Max Verstappen.

This is a great list. Although I would add Fernando in it.

[BRG]

I was never convinced he was significantly better than the WRC drivers around when he started his career. He just happened to be the driver at the top when the WRC went from being a thing to not a thing, so he just became ingrained at the top.

At the start of his career in the WRC, Loeb was up against Gronholm, Solberg, Sainz, McRae, Burns, Makinen & Martin plus a bunch of  other quite worthy competitors.  Hardly an easy ride by any standards, in fact probably some of the stiffest opposition of any time during the WRC's existence.

 

Richard Burns, but no Marcus Gronholm?
A British sympathy vote I suspect...

As he only crept in at #92 of the 100, it was scarcely a major piece of bias.  Especially as he was better than Gronholm, who only ever managed two wins on tarmac.

[D28]

These lists after the first dozen, are very difficult to complete, when rallying, Indy and Stockcar racing are included they are impossible. But they are more for discussion, and argument, which they always provoke.

When Motor Sport compiles such lists at the century mark, they split them into Greatest, All Rounders and Sports Cars, a bit easier to understand. 

 

The Nov 99 issue of Greatest, listed Tazio Nuvolari, correctly, as 1st overall. This time he has slipped to 5th. But then Hamilton had yet to begin racing. Anyway the first 10 should be agreeable with only the ranking up for argument.  

[Gravelngrass]

Here is a direct quote from the article:

"It’s also just a bit of fun. So in a spirit of good-natured debate among likeminded enthusiasts in love with the greatest sport in the world, let’s not make the mistake of taking it too seriously."

Key word being “likeminded”…

[Gravelngrass]

At the start of his career in the WRC, Loeb was up against Gronholm, Solberg, Sainz, McRae, Burns, Makinen & Martin plus a bunch of other quite worthy competitors. Hardly an easy ride by any standards, in fact probably some of the stiffest opposition of any time during the WRC's existence.

Why is Loeb so much higher than Ogier?

[Sash1]

I'd rate a 4-time Indy 500 winner Helio Castrones higher than a Riccardo Patrese or David Coulthard.

[messy]

Burns over Gronholm, for me anyway, is fair enough. Burns' career would have obviously looked very different if it wasn't for his illness. He'd likely have been 2003 Champion for a start. But more than that he was one of THE guys in the WRC's golden golden era, often underrated in hindsight as he'll forever be painted as the 'straight man' to Colin McRae's ace entertainer. At the height of his career and at the height of the WRC, he and the Impreza were often unbeatable.

Gronholm was great too, mind.

Edited by messy, 09 July 2024 - 14:59.

[juicy sushi]

Lewis, Ayrton, and Verstappen are all too high for my taste, especially Verstappen.  Foyt, Surtees, and Dixon definitely too low (Dixon being behind Zanardi and Montoya is pure modern-chemistry assisted insanity).