152 replies to this topic

[milestone 11]

I find it difficult to believe that Max still suffering vision problems since Silverstone '21, if true, has never received press until now.
https://www.racefans...-with-hamilton/

[DW46]

Explains his driving in Austria at least.

[Ijsman]

https://gp33.nl/f1-n...-zichtproblemen

"Since my crash at Silverstone I have been suffering from vision problems, especially on undulating circuits or circuits with many billboards along the side of the track. [At the COTA GP in 2021], I was not only fighting Lewis, but also against blurry images," the Dutchman begins.

"It was like driving a speedboat at 200mph! I've never said this before, but it was so bad for a few laps that I seriously considered turning the car off. The only thing that helped was me concentrating on my breathing while Lewis was breathing down my neck. An important victory that I desperately needed in the battle for the championship," said Verstappen.

Edit added for more info, thanks ANF:

Anyway, "at the time I was still suffering" suggests that he hasn't suffered from those problems for a while.

The most interesting bit: "I never told anyone at that point, because I had a championship battle."

Both articles are obviously based on interview(s) conducted in 2024.

Edited by Ijsman, 12 July 2024 - 09:59.

[JeePee]

In the interview Max talks about 2021. He does not tell if this is still an issue today.

Edited by JeePee, 11 July 2024 - 21:52.

[Ijsman]

He said it in the Red Bulletin, talking about his best victories with Red Bull. Is anyone here subscribed to it?

[renzmann]

In the interview Max talks about 2021. He does not tell if this is still an issue today.

He refers to his problems in the past tense though?

[southernstars]

There seems to be some consensus on socials that the machine translation isn't quite accurate and that the word used is a past tense word, meaning he had those problems but doesn't any more.

[Ultrav87]

I find it difficult to believe that Max still suffering vision problems since Silverstone '21, if true, has never received press until now.
https://www.racefans...-with-hamilton/

 

Translation is wrong, He said after the crash at Silverstone, he suffered from issues. COTA 2021 was where his vision blurred and Jeddah 2021 was where he was dizzy and they got him a darker visor because the lights were too bright. All symptoms of a TBI/Concussion. You can see from the paint left on his helmet that his head hit the tyres at Silverstone.

 

He is ok now.

 

In the May issue of the Red Bull magazine, he was asked to rank his top 10 wins. COTA 2021 was one of them and he explained why, hence this new info. It coming out now is someone taking a pick of the magazine and sharing it on social media. 

Edited by Ultrav87, 11 July 2024 - 22:52.

[milestone 11]

Translation is wrong, He said after the crash at Silverstone, he suffered from issues. COTA 2021 was where his vision blurred and Jeddah 2021 was where he was dizzy and they got him a darker visor because the lights were too bright. All symptoms of a TBI/Concussion. You can see from the paint left on his helmet that his head hit the tyres at Silverstone.
 
He is ok now.
 
In the May issue of the Red Bull magazine, he was asked to rank his top 10 wins. COTA 2021 was one of them and he explained why, hence this new info. It coming out now is someone taking a pick of the magazine and sharing it on social media.

Thought that must be the case. Sometimes, I wonder if many of these mis-translations aren't deliberate. What you've translated is the earlier sentence. It's within this piece where both Google and Deep L  translate as, "Since my Silverstone crash, I've struggled with visibility problems". Racefans has likely used a translator also.

 

Max steckte in einem intensiven WM-Kampf gegen Lewis Hamilton, aber das war noch nicht alles: „Seit meinem ­Silverstone-Crash kämpfte ich mit Sichtproblemen, vor allem auf welligen Kursen oder solchen mit vielen Werbe­tafeln am Streckenrand. In diesem Rennen kämpfte ich nicht nur gegen Lewis, sondern auch gegen verschwommene Bilder.“

 

Edited by milestone 11, 11 July 2024 - 23:15.

[ANF]

Interesting that he suffered from vision problems several months after the accident.

It was obvious at the time that he wasn't feeling well at all after the impact – very well captured in the fan video below – and he was flown to hospital for a CT scan.

[Ultrav87]

Thought that must be the case. Sometimes, I wonder if many of these mis-translations aren't deliberate.

 

It was completely correct in the English UK version. What happened was someone translated a German version to English which gave the wrong implication.

[RekF1]

There seems to be some consensus on socials that the machine translation isn't quite accurate and that the word used is a past tense word, meaning he had those problems but doesn't any more.

After hearing what Max says, I do have a little more sympathy for him, but it reminds me of the France 98 world cup final when Ronaldo had a seizure before the match, but was still dragged on to the pitch to fulfill his contact obligations with Nike.

Had Max sat that race out and then consequently lost the championship there would be no shame in that.

If anything, you're suggesting RB ignored their duty of care.

[milestone 11]

It was completely correct in the English UK version. What happened was someone translated a German version to English which gave the wrong implication.

Did you see my edit? Do you have a link to an English version?

[Ultrav87]

 

 

Max's helmet from the crash. It was clear that his head hit the barrier too, that's why he was so out of it getting out.

 

TBI/Concussion that must have lasted for the rest of the year.

 

Blurred vision COTA 2021, Dizziness and sensitivity to light JEDDAH 2021 as seen on DTS footage.

[Ultrav87]

Did you see my edit? Do you have a link to an English version?

 

I can't find the link but I'm posting what was said from the UK version as I have found it

 

”Many people don't know this, but at the time I was still suffering with vision problems from my crash in Silverstone.

So the track sometimes started to go really wavy for me, and during that race I was battling, of course, Lewis catching me but at the same time battling myself because I was struggling with my vision.

It was like riding a wave on a boat while going at 300km/h.

So I had to try and control my breathing in a different way to try and get rid of the problem- nothing else was working. For quite a number of laps, I was almost about to stop the car because I couldn't see properly.

It happened at tracks that were very bumby or had loads of advertising boards.

I never told anyone at that point as I had a Championship battle.”

[NCB619]

 

 

Max's helmet from the crash. It was clear that his head hit the barrier too, that's why he was so out of it getting out.

 

TBI/Concussion that must have lasted for the rest of the year.

 

Blurred vision COTA 2021, Dizziness and sensitivity to light JEDDAH 2021 as seen on DTS footage.

Woah have never seen that pic before - definitely shines a new light on things for me..

[P123]

Makes you wonder about F1's concussion protocols.  It wasn't so long ago that Alonso sat out a couple of races due to his pre-season testing crash at Barcelona, and that perhaps wasn't with the same severity of impact as Max had at Silverstone. 

[Grippy]

I can sympathise with the advertising boards as once i had a minor concussion and when I was better rode up to Exmoor no probs, but on the way back the low sun was strobing through the trees lining the road and everything felt very unreal.

Original advice ('70s) during school was dark room rest but nowadays advice is do all your normal stuff as the stimulation helps recovery.

[Myrvold]

Makes you wonder about F1's concussion protocols.  It wasn't so long ago that Alonso sat out a couple of races due to his pre-season testing crash at Barcelona, and that perhaps wasn't with the same severity of impact as Max had at Silverstone.  

 

Most likely not good enough? Might get a small push now though. It's never taken seriously until it happens to someone "more important". NFL had their whole CTE-issue, though, they may never avoid it due to how the sport is. NHL is still denying any correlation between hockey and CTE.

NASCAR didn't really take things seriously until Dale Jr sat out over half of 2016 with concussion symptoms, and decided to retire after 2017. Kurt Busch had to retire due to a concussion. Simon Pagenaud is still not healed from his accident.

A "secondary" issue, is what would've happened if Verstappen got a much harder hit at Hungaroring that year, or even at COTA.

[Grippy]

Concussion is an odd injury and I suspect difficult to identify longer term.

 I posted the following in the Red Bull team thread;

"

I can sympathise with the advertising boards as once i had a minor concussion and when I was better rode up to Exmoor no probs, but on the way back the low sun was strobing through the trees lining the road and everything felt very unreal.

Original advice ('70s) during school was dark room rest but nowadays advice is do all your normal stuff as the stimulation helps recovery."

 

that was in my 20s and the only minor symptom at the time of the accident was slight black wavyness in my peripheral vision for a day or two - until the above about a week+ later.

 

Twice in my teens playing rugby; first time I was a snivelling wreak being led off the pitch and hospitalised for an afternoon. I couldn't remember anything I read for months afterwards, second time I was on the pitch and realised I didn't know the score, who or where we were playing or anything after the previous night's bedtime, carried on playing as though nothing had happened ( I can't now remember if the morning memory came back or not).

 

So, 3 concussions with 3 different effects.

[TomNokoe]

I find it peculiar that CoTA 2021 triggered this memory, because Verstappen was reportedly suffering from gastritis that weekend.

The symptoms of which include nausea, which I'm sure could also explain the blurred vision.

I accept Verstappen's words and have no reason to doubt them in the main. But, I wonder if for the particular race that's prompted the quote there wasn't extenuating circumstances?

[JeanAlesi27]

If Max is having vision problems relative to the impact suffered at Silverstone 2021...  that's alarming..  it's now the 2024 season.. 51 g's.....  

Edited by JeanAlesi27, 12 July 2024 - 03:20.

[George Costanza]

Similar to what happened to Nelson Piquet after is crash at Imola in 1987. Piquet wasn't the same driver after that.

Max is more or less the same.

Edited by George Costanza, 12 July 2024 - 03:25.

[AncientLurker]

If true, he should not have been cleared to race. If still true, he should be reexamined and evaluated.

[prty]

Dizziness and sensitivity to light JEDDAH 2021 as seen on DTS footage.

Can you elaborate? That's new to me.

[prty]

Vision problems don't have to necessarily be concussion. Didn't Marc Marquez have something similar, and it was due to a nerve/muscle in his eyes being twisted after a crash?

[Arska]

Similar to what happened to Nelson Piquet after is crash at Imola in 1987. Piquet wasn't the same driver after that.

Max is more or less the same.

 

More or less the same, so not wdc material anymore?

[teejay]

Concerning he was cleared to race given that revelation. 

[Showty]

I wonder, how FIA allowed him to race if he had such problems?

[Muppetmad]

I'm not interested in relitigating 2021, but I'll say that I already found Max's drive at CotA that year very impressive, and this only makes it more so for me.

[Yoshi]

Hopefully this doesnt harm his quality of life in the future.

Edited by Yoshi, 12 July 2024 - 07:29.

[P123]

I'm not interested in relitigating 2021, but I'll say that I already found Max's drive at CotA that year very impressive, and this only makes it more so for me.

 

I think Max recently picked that out as his best drive.  It was very impressive.

[Taxi]

Racimg drivers do not care about health when they are on track. Crazy stuff. Max could have made some serious damage on him. But it's nothing new. Mansell left the hospital to race while with a serious neck injury, Piquet lied in 1987 to the doctors after imola accident when he was having memory loss and vision problems, Mark Webber driving with broken ribs... Hell even Sargeant only stoped last year in in Qatar co's he had aboslutuly no choice. 

[Gareth]

Pausing this for now.

[Gareth]

Hi all

 

This is quite a big revelation, and obviously important news in the world of F1. The topic of concussion in sports is also an important one.

 

So we ought to be able to discuss this important piece of news in here. It would be a shame if we couldn't discuss an important F1 topic on the (IMHO) world's best F1 forum.

 

In order to do this you must restrict your comments specifically to what Max has recently revealed.

 

You MUST NOT discuss the crash itself. Any posts along those lines will be removed and will result in a warning.

 

If you see someone making those posts, and feel an intense desire to respond to them to "correct" what they have said - do not. Report the post and move on. Responses will be removed, and will result in a warning. "But they started it" won't be a defence at all.

 

Any queries, do drop me or any other member of the mod team a PM.

 

Thanks very much, and enjoy the thread

 

Gareth

[SophieB]

I notice a couple of mentions have spoken of mistranslations. Can we be clear about what he has actually said? Is the quoted passage in the OP open to any misinterpretations?

[jonklug]

I notice a couple of mentions have spoken of mistranslations. Can we be clear about what he has actually said? Is the quoted passage in the OP open to any misinterpretations?

 

Dutch people have said that "Since my crash at Silverstone I have been suffering from vision problems" refers to that period immediately after the Silverstone crash and not that he still has these issues today. So it should be "After my crash" instead.

[Heyli]

This is the original source text in German:

 

Max steckte in einem intensiven WM-Kampf gegen Lewis Hamilton, aber das war noch nicht alles: „Seit meinem ­Silverstone-Crash kämpfte ich mit Sichtproblemen, vor allem auf welligen Kursen oder solchen mit vielen Werbe­tafeln am Streckenrand. In diesem Rennen kämpfte ich nicht nur gegen Lewis, sondern auch gegen verschwommene Bilder.“ „Es war wie Speedboot-Fahren bei 300 km/h! Ich habe das bislang noch nie erzählt, aber ein paar Runden lang war es so schlimm, dass ich ernsthaft überlegte, das Auto abzustellen. Das Einzige, was half: mich auf meine Atmung zu konzentrieren, während ich Lewis im Nacken sitzen hatte. Ein wichtiger Sieg, den ich im WM-Kampf dringend brauchte.“

 

I can confirm that he is talking about it in past tense. If he was still having problems, he would say "kämpfe" instead of "kämpfte". I would translate it to  "Since the Silverstone-Crash I was fighting with".

 

I tried to get ChatGPT to translate, but there I also get back the "since the crash, I've been struggling with". Interesting that the online translators have such trouble with it!

[Ivanhoe]

This is the right quote (copied from the Red Bull team thread)

Many people don't know this, but at the time I was still suffering with vision problems from my crash in Silverstone.
So the track sometimes started to go really wavy for me, and during that race I was battling, of course, Lewis catching me but at the same time battling myself because I was struggling with my vision.
It was like riding a wave on a boat while going at 300km/h.
So I had to try and control my breathing in a different way to try and get rid of the problem- nothing else was working. For quite a number of laps, I was almost about to stop the car because I couldn't see properly.
It happened at tracks that were very bumby or had loads of advertising boards.
I never told anyone at that point as I had a Championship battle.”

[SophieB]

Thanks.

 

Also, when did this interview happen?

[Heyli]

https://www.redbull....red-bull-racing

 

I dont know when the interview happened of course, but it was released on the 11th of June this year . 

[absinthedude]

Makes you wonder about F1's concussion protocols.  It wasn't so long ago that Alonso sat out a couple of races due to his pre-season testing crash at Barcelona, and that perhaps wasn't with the same severity of impact as Max had at Silverstone. 

 

If it was a concussion. It's also possible that it was slight damage caused to nerves or muscles caused by the impact. It doesn't sound similar to piquet's problem which was depth perception, or near lack of it. It might even be temporary damage to one or both retinas. 

 

It would be good to get a better, non-machine translation of the original text though. Is Max talking about something that lasted a few days, a few weeks, months or what? There's some confusion over use of tenses. 

 

I hadn't seen the helmet before. Was that marking from the halo or the tyre barriers? It was a big impact but not a huge one by F1 standards. Max was shaken but I doubt he realised that his vision was affected until next time he got in the car. It seems like the kind of thing that wouldn't affect everyday activities.

 

Anyway, I hope it healed and resolved totally and it's something for the FIA medical bods to think about. But not every vision problem is detectable with a quick doctor examination or even a CT scan. 

 

EDIT I now see we have better translations. Thank you

Edited by absinthedude, 12 July 2024 - 08:24.

[SophieB]

https://www.redbull....red-bull-racing

 

I dont know when the interview happened of course, but it was released on the 11th of June this year . 

Thanks, I’d seen someone say it was a very old interview that’s only now floated out into public awareness but seems it’s more or less current, good to confirm.

[SenorSjon]

If it was a concussion. It's also possible that it was slight damage caused to nerves or muscles caused by the impact. It doesn't sound similar to piquet's problem which was depth perception, or near lack of it. It might even be temporary damage to one or both retinas. 

 

It would be good to get a better, non-machine translation of the original text though. Is Max talking about something that lasted a few days, a few weeks, months or what? There's some confusion over use of tenses. 

 

I hadn't seen the helmet before. Was that marking from the halo or the tyre barriers? It was a big impact but not a huge one by F1 standards. Max was shaken but I doubt he realised that his vision was affected until next time he got in the car. It seems like the kind of thing that wouldn't affect everyday activities.

 

Anyway, I hope it healed and resolved totally and it's something for the FIA medical bods to think about. But not every vision problem is detectable with a quick doctor examination or even a CT scan. 

 

EDIT I now see we have better translations. Thank you

 

Seeing the red color, that should be from the tire barrier hitting him despite the halo. Perhaps a tire came loose and dropped on him from above due to the impact.

 

Austin was October 24th, British GP July 18th, 3 months earlier. Perhaps the bumpy nature of the track and the first long flyaway had something to do with it.

[Heyli]

I argued with ChatGpt that the translation of the tense was wrong! It took a while, but ChatGPT caved!

 

"Is the "I've been struggling" the correct tense?"

 

- "In this context, "I've been struggling" is correct if the vision problems started at Silverstone and continued up to the time being described. However, if the vision problems were confined to the past and had been resolved by the time of speaking, then "I struggled" would be more appropriate. Given the context that suggests an ongoing issue during the championship, "I've been struggling" seems to be the correct tense."

 

"But it says "Kämpfte" which is past tense?"

 

- "You are correct. The use of "kämpfte" indicates past tense. Given this, the translation should reflect that the struggle was in the past. Here is the revised translation:"

 

"Max was in an intense championship battle against Lewis Hamilton, but that wasn't all: "Since my crash at Silverstone, I struggled with vision problems, especially on bumpy tracks or those with many advertising boards along the track. In this race, I was fighting not just against Lewis, but also against blurry images."

"It was like driving a speedboat at 300 km/h! I've never mentioned this before, but for a few laps, it was so bad that I seriously considered parking the car. The only thing that helped was focusing on my breathing while Lewis was right behind me. It was an important victory that I urgently needed in the championship fight.""

[Kao18]

Interesting that he suffered from vision problems several months after the accident.

It was obvious at the time that he wasn't feeling well at all after the impact – very well captured in the fan video below – and he was flown to hospital for a CT scan.

 

Seeing that still gives me goosebumps. And now this revelation, mind-boggling that his hospitalization was downplayed at the time (and still to this day) by some.

 

He probably should have sat out a race or two, but the fact that he didn't might explain some of his determination the rest of that year, trying to hold on at all costs.

[ANF]

This is the right quote (copied from the Red Bull team thread)
 

Many people don't know this, but at the time I was still suffering with vision problems from my crash in Silverstone.
So the track sometimes started to go really wavy for me, and during that race I was battling, of course, Lewis catching me but at the same time battling myself because I was struggling with my vision.
It was like riding a wave on a boat while going at 300km/h.
So I had to try and control my breathing in a different way to try and get rid of the problem- nothing else was working. For quite a number of laps, I was almost about to stop the car because I couldn't see properly.
It happened at tracks that were very bumby or had loads of advertising boards.
I never told anyone at that point as I had a Championship battle.”

 

This is the original source text in German:
 
Max steckte in einem intensiven WM-Kampf gegen Lewis Hamilton, aber das war noch nicht alles: „Seit meinem ­Silverstone-Crash kämpfte ich mit Sichtproblemen, vor allem auf welligen Kursen oder solchen mit vielen Werbe­tafeln am Streckenrand. In diesem Rennen kämpfte ich nicht nur gegen Lewis, sondern auch gegen verschwommene Bilder.“ „Es war wie Speedboot-Fahren bei 300 km/h! Ich habe das bislang noch nie erzählt, aber ein paar Runden lang war es so schlimm, dass ich ernsthaft überlegte, das Auto abzustellen. Das Einzige, was half: mich auf meine Atmung zu konzentrieren, während ich Lewis im Nacken sitzen hatte. Ein wichtiger Sieg, den ich im WM-Kampf dringend brauchte.“
 
I can confirm that he is talking about it in past tense. If he was still having problems, he would say "kämpfe" instead of "kämpfte". I would translate it to  "Since the Silverstone-Crash I was fighting with".
 
I tried to get ChatGPT to translate, but there I also get back the "since the crash, I've been struggling with". Interesting that the online translators have such trouble with it!

I noticed that those quotes are not identical, and that's because they are from two different articles in The Red Bulletin: one for the English edition, one from the Austrian.

The first article is in English, by Justin Hynes, published on 2 May 2024: https://www.redbull....-max-verstappen It seems to only be available online.
It lists five of Verstappen's best performances according to the author.
Verstappen only comments on COTA 2021 and Miami 2023. The quotes are long, seem verbatim, and are probably not translated.

The second article is in German, by Justin Hynes and Werner Jessner, published on 11 June 2024: https://www.redbull....red-bull-racing It's also on page 44 in the Austrian July/August 2024 issue of The Red Bulletin: https://issuu.com/re...24_at_lowres/44
It lists Verstappen's ten best performances according to Verstappen.
Verstappen comments on all ten. The quotes are much shorter than in the English article.

[Gareth]

The German version in the web link seems to be down to 9 now …

Austin 2021 now missing. I guess removed because of the mistranslation? Or Red Bull/F1 suddenly realising that admitting that a driver was on track with vision problems caused by a head injury is really not a good move?

[ANF]

Anyway, "at the time I was still suffering" suggests that he hasn't suffered from those problems for a while.

The most interesting bit: "I never told anyone at that point, because I had a championship battle."

Both articles are obviously based on interview(s) conducted in 2024.

[Heyli]

I guess that spices up the Hungary press conference!
 

Only way for Red Bull to counter this is to sacrifice Perez by announcing a suprise shift of drivers for that GP I guess!